Headlights/Original

[NC-car-guy]

This one of ya'll?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/222331551519

[NTX5467]

nBefore I put E-code Cibie headlights in my '77 Camaro, I thought the USA DOT headlight specs were pretty good, but I soon discovered just how much stray light didn't go in the area focused on "down the road" for the same wattage.  With the USA beam pattern, we tend to get a false sense of security with that wide pattern close to the car, as we only have reflectivity for far down the road vision (lane markers, pavement paint, reflective signs, etc.).  With the E-code lights, not having that wide close-in light takes some getting used to, as it's better to see farther down the road on low beams.  Plus the sharper horizontal beam cut-off makes for better foggy driving, usually.

 

In more recent times, the increase in ambient lighting at night can tend to make it look like the headlights are OFF, from the driver's seat, when they are not.  The "tan" lights which now seem to be prevalent don't help any, either, many times making vision worse!  Especially with pavement markings/paint that has degraded, flaked-off, or faded into the same color as the pavement they are on.

 

These issues can be intensified by the newer HID and projector beam headlights, combined from the small and wimpy turn signals!  Worse than that driver who didn't dim their lights on a two-lane road, many times, with sealed beams.

 

When on highways at night, with little traffic, full moon or not, the old sealed beams were pretty good, especially on high beams, for 60mph driving, from my own observations.  The E-code lights were better.  Even good headlights can seem ineffective in modern freeway driving, given the ambient light issues mentioned, at night.

 

It also seems that with the "modern" modular headlights, ensuring correct "aim" happens more at the assembly plant than "in the field".  Couple that with the desire by some to have the brightest lights they can install, so THEY can allegedly see better without considering how their desires impact others and THEIR ability to see as those high-power lights approach them at night.  As long as DOT approves them, that's "license" to use them.

 

To their credit, the projector beams lights (non HID or otherwise) do have a better and more like Euro lights beam pattern and sharp horizontal upper cut-off, many similar to the old Cibie Z-beam lights I had, which is good.  But combine them with the popular "bright" bulbs and things can deteriorate.  In more rural areas, though, that upper cut-off can mean that high beams are needed more often, compared to prior USA DOT beam pattern headlights.

 

Whatever headlights you might have, please ensure they are aimed correctly!  On low beams, what I like to see is the main lh headlight beam to be aimed slightly to the right and just below horizontal so they don't interfere with oncoming traffic on a two-lane road.  On high beams, same lateral orientation and more horizontal for the main beam hot spot.  In some cases, this might be a little higher than the classic aiming specifications (which probably took into allowance the possibility of added weight in the rear of the vehicle) and a full tank of fuel.  The more sharp the upper cut-off of the beam, the higher (relatively) the adjustment can be, for better night vision.  When I replaced the sealed beams (OEM) in my '77 Camaro, I was surprised how much I had to crank up the adjustment screw to get the beam's hot spot to the same location for the Cibie E-code lights.  Once there, I fine tuned it to match what my friends had in their similar Z/28s.  Another place where "specs" matter for the initial adjustment, but tweaking for best performance can help.

 

NTX5467

Edited December 4, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

In the middle 1960s, the Euro show cars had smaller and rectangular headlights, which were more stylish to some, compared to the big USA DOT spec lights.  Our designers wanted that styling freedom, but seemed to be held back by USA lighting code specs (including the "sealed beam" spec).  E-code lights had replaceable bulbs, not "sealed" reflectors.  But all of that changed in the USA. 

 

As things evolved, headlights did improve.  The later versions of sealed beams came to have a more E-code style beam pattern, as evolutionary changes.  In the 1990s, when some high-level Euro cars started to come with HID headlights, "the marketplace" began to sell products which mimic-ed them, in color and otherwise.  Some people started messing with the engineering of headlights, having no knowledge of what they were doing.

 

When the "blue lights" were popular, a then-new Cavalier came into our shop with a headlights staying on issue.  The tech discovered that the owner's young driver had got some bulbs (obviously like his friends had) and tried to install them in the Cavalier's headlight housing.  They didn't fit, so they duct taped them in (obviously with horrendous beam/aim results!).  The car's BCM read "too much current draw" and shut down that circuit, causing the lights to go off.  The fix?  A new pair of OEM bulbs AND instructions for the owner about what the real problem was.  So, "the look" was more important than actual performance!

 

For one model year of Buick Regal (later 1990s), there was a recall for the headlight bulbs.  The particular bulb did not have enough "flare" to the upper right to read overhead road signs.  A new bulb was issued (with a different letter code stamped into the bulb) for that issue . . . same bulb (industry) number designation, but a different production run (indicated by the different letter code), which replaced the earlier bulbs.

 

Finding the best headlight bulbs for vintage vehicles can take more effort than in the past.  Few local parts stores tend to carry the earlier sealed beams and those that do have them, tend to be "filling the hole" more than better performance OR matching what's in the vehicle, per se.  Doing something more than that can require repro vendors (more than suspected for T-3s!) or the online sellers of E-code H-4 headlights (for more $$$, usually).  Your car, your eyes, your orientations, YOUR money.

 

Enjoy the holiday season!

NTX5467 

[NTX5467]

One a side note . . . headlights are NOT the only exterior lights on a vehicle which need to be in "visible" condition.  Meaning signaling, brake, and running lights.

 

The other lights have internal reflectors which can become degraded with age.  This loss of reflectivity can be the result of nothing more than "dust", but can also be the result of the aging of the base metal (for metallic castings), or combinations thereof.  In many cases, bulb replacement requires the exterior lense's removal.

 

Dust?  In order to decrease possible internal condensation, the lenses usually have a small "cut-out" in their lower sealing surface.  This is the "vent" for the lens.  In the lenses which have these cut-outs/indentations, that "hole" originally had a filter inserted into it.  The filter kind of reminded me of the filters which were on filter-top cigarettes in the middle 1960s.  In many cases, because the need for their presence was not known or needed, they were lost with the first bulb change.  We were usually more concerned with the rubber gasket not being broken when the lens was removed.  Even with the filter, dust can migrate through it, just a good bit less of it, over time.

 

A while back, there was an article in one of the older vehicle magazines on this subject, which I'd already noticed on a few of my own cars.  They also had a spray paint for brightening of the reflector.  There was a big difference in light output!  Just cleaning and wiping of the reflector and inside of the lens can make a difference!  Putting some new shiny silver paint on the reflector further restores things to "like new".  I don't know how many older vehicles (even from the 1960s-70s) I've seen with dim rear tail lights.

 

A month or so ago, I was joined on a Fort Worth freeway with a 1940s Packard.  This was obviously a fairly-recent restoration.  It was solid white with wide white walls.  Kind of hard to miss it at night, visually!  It was not having any issues with normal freeway speeds (as I could barely hear "the dynamo hummm" inside my 2005 Impala.  The headlights were working "as designed", but the rear tail lights were about the size of a silver dollar, near rear bumper level.  As I got behind some slower traffic, the Packard sped on!  I could see "the white" in the headlights of other cars and under the moon, but the smaller tail lights were . . . "small".  With such small lights, even at full brightness, nothing near the visibility by approaching vehicles that many modern vehicles would have.  Although they were much smaller than, say, a 1969 Chevy fleetside pickup's tail lights, the actual light in the pickup taillight is not that much larger, so even these more modern vehicles can have these same visibility issues.

 

So . . . now there's something else to consider for a winter or spring project!

 

NTX5467

[Grimy]

My experience on 6V rear lights:

 

1. Single-filament bulbs:  Upgrade bulb size from the usual #63 (tail/license, 3cp) to #1129 (21 cp), and from #81 (stop/turn, 15 cp) to #1133 spotlight bulbs with "mushroom" heads (32 cp). For pre-war cars with separate sockets in the same housing, there may not be room for the large globe of the #1133, so use a second #1129.

In my recently acquired 1918 Pierce with a narrow housing taking a #63 (3 cp) tail/license bulb, there was no room for the larger-diameter globe of a #81 or #1129.  This tail light was used about 1914 through mid-1924.  I found that a #209 dome light bulb (elongated but small globe diameter) of 15 cp would fit in that housing and greatly improved light output to the rear.

 

2.  Dual-filament bulbs, stock, are usually 21/3 cp (stop/tail) and are more difficult to upgrade.  Bob Drake, the reproduction Ford parts source in OR, offers high-output dual filament bulbs in both 6V and 12V at 50/14 cp (stop/turn and tail/license respectively) at about $3.00-$3.50 each.  He offers both straight pin and staggered pin by the Ford part number, not the OEM/aftermarket Mazda lamp numbers, so know what you have before ordering.  From my experience with these bulbs 4 years ago, I recommend ordering extra bulbs, because my order of four had some quality control issues--one was out of register between contacts and filaments and another's globe came loose while installing.  But what a difference!

[old-tank]

28 minutes ago, Grimy said:

My experience on 6V rear lights:

 

1. Single-filament bulbs:  Upgrade bulb size from the usual #63 (tail/license, 3cp) to #1129 (21 cp), and from #81 (stop/turn, 15 cp) to #1133 spotlight bulbs with "mushroom" heads (32 cp). For pre-war cars with separate sockets in the same housing, there may not be room for the large globe of the #1133, so use a second #1129.

In my recently acquired 1918 Pierce with a narrow housing taking a #63 (3 cp) tail/license bulb, there was no room for the larger-diameter globe of a #81 or #1129.  This tail light was used about 1914 through mid-1924.  I found that a #209 dome light bulb (elongated but small globe diameter) of 15 cp would fit in that housing and greatly improved light output to the rear.

 

2.  Dual-filament bulbs, stock, are usually 21/3 cp (stop/tail) and are more difficult to upgrade.  Bob Drake, the reproduction Ford parts source in OR, offers high-output dual filament bulbs in both 6V and 12V at 50/14 cp (stop/turn and tail/license respectively) at about $3.00-$3.50 each.  He offers both straight pin and staggered pin by the Ford part number, not the OEM/aftermarket Mazda lamp numbers, so know what you have before ordering.  From my experience with these bulbs 4 years ago, I recommend ordering extra bulbs, because my order of four had some quality control issues--one was out of register between contacts and filaments and another's globe came loose while installing.  But what a difference!

Good info.  But be sure that the added heat of the new bulbs does not damage the tail light lens.  Years ago I bought some "bright bulbs" from a chevy supplier...worked and looked great till I noticed some charring of the translucent diffuser on my 55.  Now the suppliers are pushing LED bulbs.

[Grimy]

7 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Good info.  But be sure that the added heat of the new bulbs does not damage the tail light lens.  Years ago I bought some "bright bulbs" from a chevy supplier...worked and looked great till I noticed some charring of the translucent diffuser on my 55.  Now the suppliers are pushing LED bulbs.

I certainly agree if you have plastic components in your rear lights.  Halogen bulbs put out much more heat, and I certainly wouldn't use them with any plastic components. The Drake high-output bulbs are incandescent, not halogen--which is not to say they might not cause problems with plastic.

[NTX5467]

23 hours ago, Grimy said:

My experience on 6V rear lights:

 

1. Single-filament bulbs:  Upgrade bulb size from the usual #63 (tail/license, 3cp) to #1129 (21 cp), and from #81 (stop/turn, 15 cp) to #1133 spotlight bulbs with "mushroom" heads (32 cp). For pre-war cars with separate sockets in the same housing, there may not be room for the large globe of the #1133, so use a second #1129.

In my recently acquired 1918 Pierce with a narrow housing taking a #63 (3 cp) tail/license bulb, there was no room for the larger-diameter globe of a #81 or #1129.  This tail light was used about 1914 through mid-1924.  I found that a #209 dome light bulb (elongated but small globe diameter) of 15 cp would fit in that housing and greatly improved light output to the rear.

 

2.  Dual-filament bulbs, stock, are usually 21/3 cp (stop/tail) and are more difficult to upgrade.  Bob Drake, the reproduction Ford parts source in OR, offers high-output dual filament bulbs in both 6V and 12V at 50/14 cp (stop/turn and tail/license respectively) at about $3.00-$3.50 each.  He offers both straight pin and staggered pin by the Ford part number, not the OEM/aftermarket Mazda lamp numbers, so know what you have before ordering.  From my experience with these bulbs 4 years ago, I recommend ordering extra bulbs, because my order of four had some quality control issues--one was out of register between contacts and filaments and another's globe came loose while installing.  But what a difference!

 

 

These upgrades are very good information!  One concern I might have, similar to the "heat issues" mentioned, is the additional amp load on the electrical system?  If these non-led lights put out that much more light, then I suspect there will be additional loads on the wiring harness, related connectors, and circuits?  Just curious.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

The brighter the bulb, the more resistance across the filament, the more heat is generated. Spacing from the lens is also crucial.

 

People are pushing LED bulbs right now for two reasons:

1. they are solid state, which results in instantaneous on/off and no burn linger like standard filaments
2. they are brighter, require much less power and are cold

The issue, outlined previously, is that they are not omni-directional like a filament bulb - at least not yet. Because of this, they do not take advantage of reflectors the way filament bulbs do. There is ongoing research right now for plasma based LED bulbs, that create an omni-directional luminescence via a plasma cloud generated within the circuit board. Others are toying with creating a special head on top of an LED behind a projector to broaden the beam, and some are even attaching cone optics to diffuse the LED beam.

 

Point being, there's a reason why auto manufacturers are still using filament bulbs and it's not a cost issue.

 

When I was doing research on bulbs for the Buick, I wanted to compare primarily the difference between a 1034 and an 1157. Both had the same running filament, so no additional power was being consumed while on, but the brake filament on the 1157 was a .3 amp difference. Candle power was the same on paper, but it was marginally brighter. The 1157 bulb, for whatever reason, also had a longer life span than the 1034 bulb. Diving even further, I found that the 3496 bulb is the brightest bulb that will fit a BAY15D housing (both in running and brake operation), however, the amp draw was significantly greater. When it comes to brake lights, I think looking for similar running light CP ratings with a brighter brake light rating will be OK in the long run since they're only on when you come to a stop. Running lights, however, I would not gamble on because the added heat intensity will generate hotter ambient temps behind the lens.

 

In the near future, I plan to replace most bulbs with a proper LED replacement. With the way LED technology is progressing, they may be standard in another year or so. Below is a video I found that does a nice comparison between what's new, what's on the market currently, and what's been contemporary.

 

 

[Grimy]

Thanks NTX and Beemon.  To address your concerns, here are my unscientific findings as to the fleet in my signature, nothing newer than 1948:

 

1. No heat deformation of the plastic REPRO rear lenses in my 1934 and 1936 P-As, which have metal reflectors, despite many hours with those lights on.

 

2. The incandescent bulbs are indeed omnidirectional but are "focused" (after a fashion) by the reflectors and by the concentric-circle design within the lenses.  I'm unwilling to try LEDs in those two cars because (1) as upgraded, there's PLENTY of visibility and (2) installation of LEDs would likely require me to muck around with the turn signal circuit on the one car so equipped (haven't got around to turn signals on the other).

 

3. Yes, there is a small net increase in electrical load--which I have not calculated. My cars thru 1934 have 25 amp, and the 1936 a 35 amp, 3-brush generators, and with the 3rd turned up, drop to 17 amp and 27 amp respective output when the heat sensor kicks in.  I've equipped my 8-cyl cars (1930, 1934, 1936) with dual Optima 6V batteries in parallel, PRIMARILY for the reserve capacity because I'm running at a slight charge deficit (1-2 amps) on the 25-amp generator cars with headlights on.  Optimas have 100 AH each, so these cars have 200 AH reserve. Each of thee 8-cyl cars was originally equipped with a 140 AH Group 3 wet cell battery.  And I DON'T run the power-sucking original 1936 radio with the lights on!  Nothing worth listening to on AM around here anyway.  In 1997 I drove the 1936, solo, from the SF Bay Area to Cleveland OH and back, traveling a lot at night, and had no battery problems.

 

For you gents with post-war cars, may I suggest you TRY the easy and least invasive upgrades I mentioned. I'm not selling anything!  It works for me with less-capacity and more primitive charging systems than you have, maybe or maybe not for you. IF you develop issues with undercharged batteries, then you may need to try something else, but you're out minimal change and time. I'm certainly not offended if you don't like the suggestions, or even if someone says, "It won't work--we'll all be killed!"  :-)

 

 

[buick5563]

Dang,

Twixt Beemon, Grimy and NTX this might be the smartest thread on the Forum.

[NTX5467]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 0:23 PM, Grimy said:

 

There might be more OEM LED rear light assemblies than you might expect.  One is the last-gen Cadillac DeVille/DTS cars.  Lots of little LEDs.  I think there's a vendor in Florida that rebuilds them for the body shop industry? That was about 15+ years ago.  I think the last few years had LED backup lights, too, from the color of their light.

 

In the middle 1980s, when High Mounted Stop Lights became standard, the Z/28s had a light section in the rear spoiler, with FIVE separate halogen bulbs.  Back then, about $15.00 EACH.

 

A friend noted that in the case of rear lights, the LEDs would need to be red rather than white, so they'd show up correctly.  Otherwise, too much white would come through the red lens.  As for turn signals, an electronic flasher might be needed as a normal thermal flasher probably would not flash (lower current load with LEDs).  Possibly some add-in resistance in more recent times?  There are now some replacement LEDs which have the emitters on the outer circle of a drum-type arrangement, so the light shines laterally rather than "out the end".  That style would probably be better, I suspect, for "old bulb" replacements.  Some of the headlight bulbs also had their emitter panels aimed downward and reflected back toward the headlight reflector.  Obviously, the products are evolving into more of a "plug and play" replacement that has better beam patterns than the older bulbs did.  We might not be quite where we need to be in that respect, but there seems to be progress.

 

In many of the household LED light bulbs, they have a more finned base on them, as if it's a heat sink.  In some of the replacement headlight bulbs I've looked at, similar "fins" and apparent heat sink, with some even claiming to have "fans" in them.  That tells me those LED bulbs, or a part of them, runs hot . . . hot enough to need some forced air circulation to cool them.  Kind of seems just the opposite of what might be expected for a lamp that consumes less power to run.

 

As I understand it, one easy way to get the old lights to burn brighter is to put a 12V system were the 6V system used to be . . . with the existing 6V wiring harnesses.  6V harnesses are usually made with larger gauge wiring than 12V systems.  The "juice" is carried on the outside surface of the wire strands.  More strands = more "juice" to the lights (and other electrical accessories) . . . hence "brighter lights".  My machine shop associate termed it "Lit up like a Christmas Tree".

 

The last-gen Lincoln Mark used a fluorescent HMSL, with normal stop lights.  It was noted that the HMSL got to full illumination "milliseconds" quicker than the normal stop lights did.  On the surface, it sounded like a minimal benefit, until I computed it to be that it got to full brightness about 22' sooner at 60mph . . . which is over 1 car-length sooner, which could be critical in some situations.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

3 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

There might be more OEM LED rear light assemblies than you might expect.  One is the last-gen Cadillac DeVille/DTS cars.  Lots of little LEDs.  I think there's a vendor in Florida that rebuilds them for the body shop industry? That was about 15+ years ago.  I think the last few years had LED backup lights, too, from the color of their light.

 

I should clarify, 1157/1156 replacement bulbs aren't where they should be. A lot of cars use custom molded tail light assemblies, but service usually entails replacing the whole unit. Most cars still use a plug in filament bulb, that's where I was focusing "not quite there yet." I also read red LEDs for red lenses, I think it has to do with the intensity of the light from the diode, as you stated, overcomes the color of the lens.

 

In any case, one might think using filament bulbs might not be that big of a deal to upgrade from, but think about where modern optics for emergency and newer cars are going. Emergency lights are now almost all LED or to some degree extremely bright. Modern car housings like the new Dodge Dart or Charger have a plasma system that illuminates an entire band across the back of the car that is more crisp than filament bulbs. People are getting used to brighter lights and eventually the old 1034s or 1157 bulbs will look like running lights, even when braking and especially on older vehicles. It's like people adapting to anti-lock brakes. They know they can hold off until the last minute to brake, so they do so, rather than giving car lengths - at least around here, it's almost always bumper to bumper and I always find someone stealing that car length I leave for braking right at the inopportune moment.

[avgwarhawk]

7 hours ago, Beemon said:

 

 

 

In People are getting used to brighter lights and eventually the old 1034s or 1157 bulbs will look like running lights, even when braking and especially on older vehicles. 

 

 

Fortunately the 3rd brake light is a help with this.  I remember when the 3rd brake light was introduced.  I could not stand the look.   Today, I'm glad it is there because many cars have non-working or partial working brake lights(bulbs blown).   Dull lights or those that jam in the bulb incorrectly that makes the brake light filament illuminate all the time or is on the running light circuit just burning bright like the brakes are engaged.   

Edited December 12, 2016 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[D Yaros]

One addition to all my old rides is a license plate frame with an integral 3rd brake light.  In this day and age one can never have enough brake lighting!

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by D Yaros (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

I took a look for LED bulbs for classics for interest sake,  the LED are available.   The base of the bulb is as you would find in an 1157/1156 so it will fit your current socket.  The light generating portion is LED.   Interesting. 

 

 https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/tail-brake-turn/

Edited December 13, 2016 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

I tend to concur that the 1156/1157 candlepower bulbs (as 2057 and 3000-series bulbs with flat bases) can become "dim" by comparison to some recent rear lamp designs.  That ONE reason for making sure the bulb gets the "design voltage" to it through the wiring harness AND the reflector is clean and shiny for maximum reflectivity.  That same candlepower of the 1156/1157 bulb is still what's used in most incandescent rear lights.  The 1100-series gave way to a 2000-series replacement, which became the 3000-series bulb with a flat base and exposed wires on the plug-in base of the bulb. 

 

When the round base bulbs were still in use, many new GM cars came with the sockets filled with a putty-colored bulb grease.  This served TWO purposes  One was to provide an environment for the contact terminals (in the socket and on the bulb) where "clean" contacts would remain for quite some time (i.e., non-corrosive from moisture or oxidation) AND as a heat sink provider, helping transfer heat from the bulb to the housing.  Not the waxy di-electric silicone paste we've seen before (which could serve the same purposes), but a viscous tan paste of sorts.  Think middle 1990s GM cars and trucks which were still using the round base bulbs.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

6 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

I took a look for LED bulbs for classics for interest sake,  the LED are available.   The base of the bulb is as you would find in an 1157/1156 so it will fit your current socket.  The light generating portion is LED.   Interesting. 

 

 https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/tail-brake-turn/

 

Refer to the video I shared above, those tower LED lights are garbage. 

[avgwarhawk]

11 hours ago, Beemon said:

 

Refer to the video I shared above, those tower LED lights are garbage. 

 

I would not say these LED are garbage.  These work and provide a red color.  I can say the lumens of this LED appear about the same as the incandescents.  So it does not justify the cost IMO.  The plasma appear very bright and almost to a fault.  Truthfully, sitting behind a 2016 Caddy with these type of  lights on full tilt when braking is blinding.  When does bright become too bright?   In my case with a single bulb in each socket(54 Buick) I suspect the plasma would look great and not overbearing with light for hose behind me!  

 

Thanks for posting the video!  It is nice to see all three side by side in action.   We can also state that it is nice to see LED/plasma replacements that go directly into the sockets already on our vehicles. No major work on socket replacements, etc.  Sooner or latter incandescents will go the way of the house incandescent bulbs.         

Edited December 13, 2016 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

23 hours ago, Beemon said:

 

Refer to the video I shared above, those tower LED lights are garbage. 

 

So we might make better purchase decisions, why are the tower LED lights "garbage"?  What might the "standards for comparison" be?

 

Thanks,

NTX5467

[Beemon]

The tower LEDs are bright, but they don't get very much brighter when you put your foot on the pedal. The light intensity dims the more SMD diodes are present on the tower. The SMD diodes don't really create a glow (think spotlight) so none of them ever really utilize the reflector housing.  The plasma LEDS work better because there are only 5 LEDS total and the plasma cloud in the COB LED creates a luminescence that mimics a filament bulb. This is demonstrated in the video. The only issue is cost. In my opinion the filament bulb is still superior to the replacement LED tower bulbs. 

[NTX5467]

Thanks.

 

NTX5467