Vinyl top On Old Car

[ken1007]

This is not a convertible top, it's vinyl portion permanently covering the open roof area on a 1935 Studebaker.  It is supported by wooden bows.  My question is; would one normally glue the roof material  to the bows to reduce ballooning?  Ken, Deltaville, Va  

 

 

Thanks to all for input on this issue.   ONE MORE QUESTION (and hopefully last):  After the roof material is stretched and secured to the roof, there is 3/8 inch metal strip of what appears to be original extruded metal that is to be secured to the perimeter of the vinyl.  This strip has what looks to be a "dimple" on each side of its inside bottom that could secure a plastic type strip that would hide the tacks and screws that hold the fabric in place.  This metal strip is like what is used on a truck camper shell to hide the screws holding a window on a trunk camper shell, but smaller.  Perhaps this is the "lock strip" referenced in one reply.  The question is there a plastic type strip that will "snap" in place into this metal strip or should it be filled with 5200?  Ken, Deltaville, Va 

Edited September 15, 2016 by ken1007 (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

Normally one would have from the top down:

• rubberized canvas/imitation leather ~ different trade names for different fabrics were used - all long before modern vinyl ~ the material used on these Top Inserts on Model A's now is called Long Cobra Grain, which does look and feel like vinyl
• cotton batting
• chicken wire
• wooden bows
• cloth headliner

Different cars, years and makes would vary...but this is what a Model "A" Ford would have. I think a woody sedan or wagon from the Thirties would have visible, closely-spaced steamed oak ribs above the bows.

Edited September 14, 2016 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[ken1007]

11 hours ago, jeff_a said:

Normally one would have from the top down:

• rubberized canvas/imitation leather ~ different trade names for different fabrics were used - all long before modern vinyl ~ the material used on these Top Inserts on Model A's now is called Long Cobra Grain, which does look and feel like vinyl
• cotton batting
• chicken wire
• wooden bows
• cloth headliner

Different cars, years and makes would vary...but this is what a Model "A" Ford would have. I think a woody sedan or wagon from the Thirties would have visible, closely-spaced steamed oak ribs above the bows.

 

Thanks, this top has three layers: vinyl, batting, and black liner; all three are above wooden bows, no chicken wire.  Have not gotten to the headliner yet, that comes later.  Question is,are the three layers above the bows glued to the bows?  Ken   

[Restorer32]

No.

[trimacar]

I've rarely seen a car that didn't have the chicken wire first, attached around the perimeter of the wood and every now and then on the bows.  On many cars, this was also used as an antennae for the radio, so in that case one has to be careful that no chicken wire touches the metal of the car.

 

Next, over the chicken wire (and, as mentioned, nothing is "attached" in the center portion of the top", it's usually good to have a thin fabric over the chicken wire, so that the batting placed next doesn't poke through the holes.  An inexpensive muslin fabric works fine for this.

 

Next, a layer of batting, preferably a thin cotton such as used for quilting.  I strongly suggest do NOT use foam, as it will deteriorate fairly quickly these days.  The quality of foam is just not the same as it once was.

 

Then, the vinyl covering.  Usually, the metal top where it overlays the wood has an oval slot in it.  This is so you can tack the vinyl on one end of the slot, and the other end can be available for putting in fasteners for whatever trim piece you use.  Make sure that you seal the covering, and it's best if you install it in the sun on a hot day, to let it stretch.  THAT'S what keeps it from ballooning, a good tight installation.

 

Funny this came up, I'm putting an insert in a 1934 Pierce, started today, just installed the chicken wire....

[Restorer32]

Industry name for "chicken wire" is "poultry fabric".

[ken1007]

48 minutes ago, trimacar said:

I've rarely seen a car that didn't have the chicken wire first, attached around the perimeter of the wood and every now and then on the bows.  On many cars, this was also used as an antennae for the radio, so in that case one has to be careful that no chicken wire touches the metal of the car.

 

Next, over the chicken wire (and, as mentioned, nothing is "attached" in the center portion of the top", it's usually good to have a thin fabric over the chicken wire, so that the batting placed next doesn't poke through the holes.  An inexpensive muslin fabric works fine for this.

 

Next, a layer of batting, preferably a thin cotton such as used for quilting.  I strongly suggest do NOT use foam, as it will deteriorate fairly quickly these days.  The quality of foam is just not the same as it once was.

 

Then, the vinyl covering.  Usually, the metal top where it overlays the wood has an oval slot in it.  This is so you can tack the vinyl on one end of the slot, and the other end can be available for putting in fasteners for whatever trim piece you use.  Make sure that you seal the covering, and it's best if you install it in the sun on a hot day, to let it stretch.  THAT'S what keeps it from ballooning, a good tight installation.

 

Funny this came up, I'm putting an insert in a 1934 Pierce, started today, just installed the chicken wire....

 

Thanks, glad you responded.  What sealant do you recommend and would it be possible to send pic of the oval slot mentioned in your next to last para.  Today will be 90 degree day, not sure when next one will be so am trying to install top today.  Ken, Deltaville, Va

[Guest]

My Pontiac did not have any "chicken wire" when I replaced the top fabric the first time.  All original from the factory.  Muslin fabric, batting and the top material.  The top material was NOT "long cobra grain"  it was absolutely smooth oilcloth.  Original top, 29 years same owner, never replaced.

[Rusty_OToole]

Tinindian I am interested in the 'oilcloth' top on your Pontiac. This goes back to some discussion of fabric bodies of the twenties and thirties, like Weymann. Some were covered with the same brand of artificial leather used for upholstering chairs. I have never been able to determine if it was the same material, or a special heavier grade for cars.

 

Would you say the original top material was the same kind of artificial leather used for upholstery or was it different?

[Guest]

I think it was the same as upholstery or like the oilcloth that was used on kitchen tables in the old days.  I sure wish I had saved a piece of it, but then in 1959 it was just an old car.

[trimacar]

You can still buy "oilcloth" table cloths.  It is NOT the same material as what was then called oilcloth.

 

All of the current top materials, even replicated Pantasote, are basically vinyl material.  Originally, the cars had inserts that were a cloth material coated with a rubberized material, the fore runners of modern vinyl.

 

There's always debate on what's correct on which car, long grain, short grain, Cobra grain, the list goes on. 

 

As far as the chicken wire or poultry cloth, many cars had that as the base for an insert top, I'm sure that many didn't.  I think it's good practice to use it now, as it provides a good base for the padding and top material, but it's your choice.  Also, as mentioned, early radios on some cars needed it for an antennae. 

 

I don't have a picture of the oval cutout in the metal at hand, but if you've removed your top you can see if your car has them or not.  Just like the chicken wire, not every car was built that way.

 

Use any good black sealant, you want to make sure that no water can wick its way under your edges.  Pull the material very tight, front to back first, then side to side, fastening in the middle both ways, then work toward each corner, making sure it's tight as it can be....

[Friartuck]

Quote

Industry name for "chicken wire" is "poultry fabric".

 

That's Fowl!!

Filler on top of poultry fabric was several layers of poly filler topped with cotton batting. Vinyl was left in the hot sun and pulled tight front-to-back and then side-to-side. Staples were stainless.

 

A more important question is how to finish between the cloth material and the metal roof.....A rubber Tee molding, or urethane? This top project stapled into a wooded edge and used 3M 5200 with nice round bead in the gap.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Friartuck
added info (see edit history)

[trimacar]

A lot of high end cars had a half round or half oval piece of metal, shaped to fit the "valley" you show in your pictures, which was then bored and countersunk every 6 inches or so, screwed to top to finish off, holes filled and the whole thing painted to match the top material.

 

Other cars had strips with numerous holes, and then a filler piece that covered the nails or tacks.

 

I've seen all sorts of trim used, including wire-on, to finish off the edges of the top.

 

It's a difficult thing now to figure out on a restoration, unless you have the original metal pieces, which is actually rare after this many years. 

 

There's a hot rod shop making an aluminum strip that gets attached, then a shaped vinyl piece snaps over it, but I'm not a fan.

 

See you're outside in the sun, that's a good thing!  If you use staples, best to use stainless ones if they're exposed to the elements at all, I still do tacks, mostly.   A sealant should be applied before, or as, the top is going on, between the metal and the bottom of the fabric, as it's difficult to seal the edge of the fabric.

[jpage]

The smooth top material used to be available but I think it's been mostly discontinued. Restoration Specialties used to have some but it might be gone now. I agree with Trimacar that the tacks are better than the staples and you don't have to used a gazillion of them. The Model A stores sell several different top mouldings in lengths that can easily be adapted to different vehicles. By '35, I think many manufactures used either a rubber lock strip or a rubber gasket and a composition finish strip on the tops. By '36 most fabric tops were gone!

[Rusty_OToole]

Poultry wire is different from chicken wire, it has a finer mesh and I think is what was used for tops.

 

Some cars had an insert that was made separately then fitted into the top. Others had the framing etc built on the car. The difference should be obvious from the inside. If the insert is held by screws or bolts it may be possible to remove and recover it off the car.

 

Tinindian thanks for the information. It seems they were using the same material used for upholstery or something similar, a lighter material than today's vinyl top material with little or no grain.