Pre-War Buicks at Auburn Fall Auction

[CarNucopia]

I just got back from the Auburn auction where where there was a handful of pre-war Buicks. I've been looking for a '37-'42 that would be a better driver then my '30. I didn't register as a bidder because the cars for sale didn't grab me for one reason or another. I have to say, I was surprised at the lack of interest in these cars. None of them were bid up to the lower end of the range and a few sold at what seemed like very good prices (if I still have my notes, I post the prices later).  It did seem like a lot of cars didn't hit the reserve, so maybe this is a reflection of the entire market.

 

They run two lanes at Auburn, which can provide an interesting juxtaposition. A '39 Sport Phaeton was on the block at the same time as a '94 Toyota Supra. If I recall correctly, the Buick stalled out around $33K (and sold with no reserve) while the Supra hit $60K.  

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Wow! According to NADA, a hi value for a '94 Supra is $29k, Kelley about $37k for one in excellent condx. What would make a Supra worth $60k?

 

Cheers, Dave

[CarNucopia]

11 minutes ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

Wow! According to NADA, a hi value for a '94 Supra is $29k, Kelley about $37k for one in excellent condx. What would make a Supra worth $60k?

 

Cheers, Dave

 

It was a Turbo with 29K miles. At $60K, it didn't hit the reserve.

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

 I think the market for thirties cars is bad because many of the folks that have any kinds of memories of these cars are getting to old anymore.  There are still some left that like to drive them and remember them as kids etc but not many. Of those that are left most already have whatever interested them.

Younger folks mostly want cars from the generations of when they were young. Our cars are fun for us and that is where the value lies. Our kids or theirs will sell our cars to finance something they desire because other than the memory of these old cars being their parents cars they will have little reason to keep them.

[hidden_hunter]

53 minutes ago, Daves1940Buick56S said:

Wow! According to NADA, a hi value for a '94 Supra is $29k, Kelley about $37k for one in excellent condx. What would make a Supra worth $60k?

 

Cheers, Dave

 

 

They're very common here, I really don't understand why you would pay anywhere near that - If I was looking for a modern car, supra or a brand new cadillac ats-v

 

I know which one I would choose - each to their own I guess.

[Larry Schramm]

1 hour ago, LAS VEGAS DAVE said:

 I think the market for thirties cars is bad because many of the folks that have any kinds of memories of these cars are getting to old anymore.  There are still

Younger folks mostly want cars from the generations of when they were young.

 

Must be something wrong with me.  I like the brass & nickel cars & trucks.

[hidden_hunter]

34 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Must be something wrong with me.  I like the brass & nickel cars & trucks.

 

and me, and I'm in the age group that grew up with Supra's and the fast and furious movies!

[Pete Phillips]

A 1994 Toyota Supra hit $60,000 and the seller didn't even take it? I think I'm going to get depressed.

And on a somewhat related note, the Pre-War Buick After-Tour that was planned for after the Allentown event had to be cancelled due to lack of interest. Sad, sad, sad...

[CarNucopia]

23 hours ago, LAS VEGAS DAVE said:

 I think the market for thirties cars is bad because many of the folks that have any kinds of memories of these cars are getting to old anymore.  There are still some left that like to drive them and remember them as kids etc but not many. Of those that are left most already have whatever interested them.

Younger folks mostly want cars from the generations of when they were young. Our cars are fun for us and that is where the value lies. Our kids or theirs will sell our cars to finance something they desire because other than the memory of these old cars being their parents cars they will have little reason to keep them.

 

I think your assessment is spot on. The best way to get new people interested in these cars is for the prices to come down.

 

Here's the prices from Auburn (not including 10% buyer premium):

• '39 Super Phaeton, $33K. This car sold with no reserve and looked like great deal. I think this is the same car that was on the Hyman website for $46,500. In the catalog for $45-60K
• '40 Special Convertible Coupe, @ $38,500, I'd say it was a good value. This looked like a nice car with an older restoration. In the catalog for $55-65K
• '40 Roadmaster Phaeton the bidding stopped at $61K. The catalog had the car for $80-100K. This is a very nice car.
• '30 60 Series Sports Roadster, $63.5K. Catalog had it at $65-75K. 

I think people trying to sell cars my need to adjust their expectations a bit. As a guy who's shopping for a car, I can't help but think I'm trying to catch a falling knife. I'm glad to see I can get more for my money, but I'm also worried the prices will continue to fall. 

 

21 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

and me, and I'm in the age group that grew up with Supra's and the fast and furious movies!

 

Similar situation here, but no F&F. The MR2, SVO Mustang and IROC-Z where the cool new cars when I was in high school. Used, a bandit Trans Am or Olds Cutlass were pretty sought after.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Buick64C
Spelling (see edit history)

[trimacar]

I don't believe taking individual results from a particular auction, and translating them to mean that prices are falling, is an accurate measure of what the car market might be doing at any particular time.

 

If you look at the overall market for good quality collectable cars, it's still strong.  Project cars, and cars needing a lot of work, have lost a good bit of value over the years (with the exception of a highly desirable model or year).  This is due to the high cost of restoration, as has been discussed on this forum at length.

 

It's also tough to condemn a group of cars to a "lack of interest" back seat, so to speak, just because the person making the comment doesn't like that genre of cars.  Many people who have no interest in early brass cars state that they're becoming worthless, yet there's a strong market for them and a lot of touring going on with early vehicles.  It's like saying "No one likes broccoli, because I don't like broccoli", it just doesn't reflect the true nature of the market.

 

All that said, it is somewhat of a shame that the "market" is what we seem to discuss a lot more than the "hobby".  The hobby is where the fun resides....driving the cars and becoming friends with people from all walks of life....

[CarNucopia]

2 hours ago, trimacar said:

I don't believe taking individual results from a particular auction, and translating them to mean that prices are falling, is an accurate measure of what the car market might be doing at any particular time.

 

If you look at the overall market for good quality collectable cars, it's still strong.  Project cars, and cars needing a lot of work, have lost a good bit of value over the years (with the exception of a highly desirable model or year).  This is due to the high cost of restoration, as has been discussed on this forum at length.

 

It's also tough to condemn a group of cars to a "lack of interest" back seat, so to speak, just because the person making the comment doesn't like that genre of cars.  Many people who have no interest in early brass cars state that they're becoming worthless, yet there's a strong market for them and a lot of touring going on with early vehicles.  It's like saying "No one likes broccoli, because I don't like broccoli", it just doesn't reflect the true nature of the market.

 

All that said, it is somewhat of a shame that the "market" is what we seem to discuss a lot more than the "hobby".  The hobby is where the fun resides....driving the cars and becoming friends with people from all walks of life....

 

My post was prompted by the Auburn auction, but my perspective is informed by shopping for a pre-war Buick for about 4 years and having spent my entire life in the hobby. I've attended numerous auctions, continually see the same cars listed for sale in places like Hemmings for long periods of time and have looked at cars owned by older collectors who seem out of touch with what they have. I also attend a lot of car events, including BCA Nationals, and I'm always left wondering who will buy these cars in the future. I respect your opinion, but I think it ignores a fundamental demographic shift that is happening. Las Vegas Dave sums it up well, so I won't repeat him. 

 

With regards to discussing the marketplace, talking about the value of cars has always been part of the hobby. The difference now is that values are heading in a direction people don't like, so the topic seems to carry more weight. Your point about project cars being soft is true, but it is also very telling about future values. These cars are often the gateway into the hobby. If they are not being bought now, it's because buyers are focusing on other eras. Also, project cars are desirable when the finished project will be valuable. Simply put, strong demand for finished cars translates into demand for projects. Sorry if I've struck a nerve, as that was not my intent. The silver lining in this is if we really want new people to have an interest in old cars, the best way is for the prices to go down. 

[Guest]

Why does anyone think junkyard owners decide to crush everything in the yard? Greed has two sides. One is the seller who thinks they should be able to retire on every sale! The other is the folks who brag about how cheap they are! That's the less noticed side of greed. Just as damaging when a junkyard owner gets sick of something for nothingers who think the stuff should free or pay me to take it! Shock then when a yard full of clean cars in Valley City ND falls to the crushers at 2-300 a ton, 2500 cars from 1940-1965. When Litfin excavating's daughter tries on line and in the monthly periodicals to sell out complete parts cars for 2-300 and they don't sell at an in person auction straight up, no buyer or seller fees! It's not 1963 when I bought my cousins 1939 Spec Coupe for 25.00. Some want accept that. The hobby really suffers when the 1% at the top suck the money from the rest and people sleep through it until it becomes a nightmare that wakes them. The problem is us, not him or her or them! I struggle to achieve personal improvement, that's hard enough, but I certainly don't fantasize I can change others or how they should. Demographics dictate alot of what happens.  Brass era cars, Model A's, you could watch prices slide as interested parties aged. People like A/C, PS and brakes, 150-300,000 miles reliably with minimal maintenence and good fuel economy. Reality changes wether we want it to or not. Wait, I do have a plan! I buy what I like, if the monetary value doesn't hold or increase I'm stuck with what? Oh yeah, something I like! No complaints and my heirs can deal with the rest!

[Thriller]

One thing is that there is a loss of expertise as the older generations pass on. Most of my cars are older than I am. When we look at it, starting in around the 50s, cars are relatively modern. When we go back to the thirties, particularly the early thirties, with wood based bodies and mechanical brakes, there is a level of technical expertise required that isn't being taught in technical schools for mechanics. Body shops here are getting less interested in working on anything that isn't as lucrative as the insurance (collision) based market. I've had my body shop of choice, the ones that repaired and painted my Wildcat, turn me down to work on the '29' which doesn't require much work, mostly prep and paint. 

 

So, without mentors, we can expect most of the younger folks entering the market to be more interested in the more modern market and / or going the custom route. 

 

[Larry Schramm]

5 hours ago, 2carb40 said:

Why does anyone think junkyard owners decide to crush everything in the yard? Greed has two sides. One is the seller who thinks they should be able to retire on every sale! The other is the folks who brag about how cheap they are! That's the less noticed side of greed. Just as damaging when a junkyard owner gets sick of something for nothingers who think the stuff should free or pay me to take it! Shock then when a yard full of clean cars in Valley City ND falls to the crushers at 2-300 a ton, 2500 cars from 1940-1965. When Litfin excavating's daughter tries on line and in the monthly periodicals to sell out complete parts cars for 2-300 and they don't sell at an in person auction straight up, no buyer or seller fees! It's not 1963 when I bought my cousins 1939 Spec Coupe for 25.00. Some want accept that. The hobby really suffers when the 1% at the top suck the money from the rest and people sleep through it until it becomes a nightmare that wakes them. The problem is us, not him or her or them! I struggle to achieve personal improvement, that's hard enough, but I certainly don't fantasize I can change others or how they should. Demographics dictate alot of what happens.  Brass era cars, Model A's, you could watch prices slide as interested parties aged. People like A/C, PS and brakes, 150-300,000 miles reliably with minimal maintenence and good fuel economy. Reality changes wether we want it to or not. Wait, I do have a plan! I buy what I like, if the monetary value doesn't hold or increase I'm stuck with what? Oh yeah, something I like! No complaints and my heirs can deal with the rest!

 

True on the value of old cars.  I had two Corvair station wagons full of parts.  One a parts car and the other could be fixed or used as a parts car.  I advertised them locally, on ebay, and with the corvair club and the best offer that I got was $200.00 each and the scrap price at the time was about $400.00/ ton.   Easy financial decision. They both went to scrap.

 

2 hours ago, Thriller said:

One thing is that there is a loss of expertise as the older generations pass on. Most of my cars are older than I am. When we look at it, starting in around the 50s, cars are relatively modern. When we go back to the thirties, particularly the early thirties, with wood based bodies and mechanical brakes, there is a level of technical expertise required that isn't being taught in technical schools for mechanics. Body shops here are getting less interested in working on anything that isn't as lucrative as the insurance (collision) based market. I've had my body shop of choice, the ones that repaired and painted my Wildcat, turn me down to work on the '29' which doesn't require much work, mostly prep and paint. 

 

So, without mentors, we can expect most of the younger folks entering the market to be more interested in the more modern market and / or going the custom route. 

 

 

This experience thing is so true.  I had been working on computer cars since 1979 and forgot a lot of what I knew about older cars.  If I could not scan it with a computer for over 30 years I had to take a second look.    Now that I am working on pre '79 cars more frequently I am remembering a lot of the old tricks of repairing them.  As time goes on I am getting better.