Any old car mechanic's near Byron, Georgia?

[hddennis]

I need a fresh set of eyes and brains to look at my 1917 Maxwell as I've completely exhausted my knowledge and patience trying to get this thing running.

Howard Dennis

[keiser31]

I wish I was closer to you.

[dictator27]

Give us a history of what you've done so far.

Terry

[hddennis]

Thanks John, I really appreciate the thought. I've just wasted the last 6 weeks in a desperate attempt to get this thing running. I've tried at least 6 carburetors, 5 K D Type B's that belong on it originally and one Model A Tillotson. It spins won't fire unless you choke it then fires and sputters until I believe it floods out the plugs. then if you dry it out it does the same thing all over again. I can almost make it run poorly by leaving the starter engaged but that is really abusive to rare parts. I've checked the new old stock Atwater-Kent Type CC distributor and coil and they are all working correctly and have strong spark to ground and also across all 4 plugs at the contacts. I've had timing all over the clock and that bothers me as none of my timing changes has seemed to make any difference except today I got it too far advanced and it bound up. I even thought that the last guy to assemble this got the timing marks off but every thing checks out visually as the manual says. I've got good compression and the head, intake and exhaust gaskets are all new. According to everything I've learned this thing should start and run as new but not in my garage. If I hadn't promised my uncle who gave it to me I wouldn't sell it, it would be gone or burning in my drive way! I've lost all desire to even hear it anymore.

Howard Dennis

[jackofalltrades70]

When you checked the timing marks, did you find TDC on #1 and make sure the rotor under the distributor is at plug 1? It sounds as if it is just off one plug wire.....

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[keiser31]

Sounds like a fuel pressure regulator is in order. Are you using a fuel tank and does it have a vented cap?

[DavidAU]

Hi Howard, My deepest sympathy to you. I know EXACTLY how you feel.

I have one with family ties covered up in my shed that has been doing exactly the same thing. Checked, cleaned, changed everything multiple times including resetting the valve clearances three times and still no go. I normally refused to be beaten at anything I do, but I think it will be a while before I get back to this one.

Pity we dont live closer, I'd come and have a beer with you.

[hddennis]

Jackofalltrades70, yes I'm 99% sure I did but just in case, I'll re-check tomorrow. John, it's a gravity feed fuel tank in the dash, non vented cap because the tank itself has a vent on top that is clear. Thanks David, I know you know how I feel. In my 55 years of fooling with old cars this is only the second motor that has stumped me. The last was a Ford flathead that was seized so tightly we beat the pistons out in small pieces.

Howard Dennis

[Rusty_OToole]

I have revived old engines that have been out of commission for up to 30 years. Have never been beat yet, except by a Land Rover that was so frozen up it would have taken a safe cracker 2 years to free it up.

Now down to business. Every engine needs 3 things to run 1) compression 2) spark, at the right time 3) gas, in the right mixture.

If those things are right it HAS to start. It HAS NO CHOICE.

In your case the motor is now so loblollied and messed about you will have to go back and start from scratch.

You say you have tested the compression and it is good. Go back and check it again, if it is good cross that one off the list.

You say you have spark. The critical part now is timing. With the plugs out, turn the engine by hand until #1 comes up on compression. Now we need to find top dead center. If you don't trust the timing marks (I don't, on an unknown 97 year old engine) is there a way to check the position of the piston?

If not, here is what to do. Make a pipe or tube that will thread into the spark plug hole. Put a kid's rubber balloon on the end. Turn the engine slowly and watch the balloon, when it is at its largest that is TDC. I know it sounds silly but this will get you within a couple degrees.

TDC is your timing mark. Set the distributor so the points are just opening at TDC. You can do this with a 6 volt test light, or with a piece of cigarette paper between the points. Slowly turn the distributor while holding the cigarette paper, when the paper comes free lock the distributor down. Or if you use the test light method when the light goes OUT the points are open. If you have manual advance, it should be fully retarded when you do this.

Now put the cap and rotor on and check the spark plugs are all firing. If they are you can put them in the engine. Be sure to get the plug wires in the right order.

Now you KNOW the compression is good, and the spark is good, and no mistake about it.

The last thing is the carburetor. I can't rebuild your carb over the internet. That is up to you. But the engine should at least fire and run for a few seconds, just by putting a shot of gas in the carb.

There are other angles to this. For example if you have messed about and put too much gas into the cylinders you could have washed the oil off the rings and have no compression. In this case all you need to do is squirt a little oil in the cylinders with an oil can. I have seen engines that would spit and sputter but never start because of this.

Another thing that gets messed up is spark plugs. If they get too much unburned gas and oil on them they can get an almost invisible coating that grounds out the sparks. Another reason to spit and sputter but never start. The only cure is to sandblast the plugs, you can buy a little spot blaster that will clean them in a jiffy.

I prefer to clean and gap the plugs if they are working because they are apt to get gummed up again. If I am going to put in new plugs I would rather get it running and burn off the old oil and gas out of the cylinders by running the engine for 15 minutes, then put in the new plugs.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[hddennis]

Thanks Rusty, your story sounds exactly like mine until this Maxwell happened to me.

"Now down to business. Every engine needs 3 things to run 1) compression 2) spark, at the right time 3) gas, in the right mixture.

If those things are right it HAS to start. It HAS NO CHOICE." Been taught this all my life and it has always been true until this Maxwell disproved it!!

The compression blows your finger out of the plug holes, I've had engines be hard starting but always run with half this much compression. I'm having a hard time keeping a mixture of oil & gas from weeping out from underneath the sparkplugs so I can tell it is getting both oil & gas. If I ever get it running this problem may cause me to have to resurface the plug holes to get a better seal as new gaskets and excessive tightening have failed to stop it.

Spark was suggested to me last night and I decided to retest it so I hooked a coil wire up and held it off the head and broke the points with a screwdriver and got a tiny weak spark to jump to the head, Bingo! I thought I've finally found the problem but after testing it several more times I didn't like the sound of the points opening and noticed that my metal screwdriver was shorting on the points arm. I grabbed a wooden skewer and broke the points and BANG a big spark at least half an inch long which I then used to fire each plug individually with some odd effects like jumping the engine and also blowing the carburetors nose but not 1 misfire. I also rechecked the firing order and wire arrangement. I started with a grubby old set of Splitdorfs that functioned perfectly but have since changed to a new old stock set of American Bosch plugs with the same non running results.

Ran through the timing marks again and even went to the trouble to verify valve and piston movement viewed through the spark plug hole while checking that the rotor lined up with number 1 on the cap, this had previously been verified even further when the new head gasket was blown out by backfiring and I had to remove the head to replace the gasket so I visually timed the engine then.

Since 5 original carbs won't work and neither will the rebuilt Model A Tillotson I have to agree my problem must be elsewhere.

If I can get the desire back to hear this thing run the only other thing I haven't redone is to take the intake off, re-examine the new gaskets and try some type sealant at this joint and try again incase I have a leak there.......................That's all I've got left.

Howard Dennis

[dictator27]

How about this? I'm presuming there is a shutoff on the gas line since it is gravity feed. Shut the gas off, drain the gas line and the carburetor. Get someone to shoot starting fluid up the carb while you hit the starter. If it catches and runs even half decently briefly, you have a fuel mixture issue. I know you have tried several carbs, but I can't help thinking that is where your problem is.

Terry

[Rusty_OToole]

It sounds like you have done everything right. It should at least fire and run for a few seconds even if the carburetor is not right.

[hddennis]

Well, I went back through every single thing I had done before and nothing had changed and everything checked out as before. I tried a test light across the points and it would work or not randomly even though every test done by manually opening the points resulted in a strong spark that jumped a half inch gap with ease. Took the points out, filed the points and the same random test light function but I noticed that when I rotated the rotor on the disengaged distributor, the distributor cap clip was laying open and near the coil output post and would get a strong spark every time the points opened at the four corners of the distributor at the exact cap post positions so I knew it was both timed correctly and working correctly even though I couldn't get it do this with a test light. The next logical step was to try starting it one more time and it fired up and ran perfectly! What the problem has been for the last six weeks, I haven't a clue.

Now I need your opinions as owners of thermo syphon cars: I let the Maxwell run about 15 minutes at a semi fast idle while I fine tuned my adjustments and checked for leaks and noises. I then noticed a few drops of water coming out of the overflow and immediately shut it off. From past experience on water pump cars I was expecting the situation to get worse and make a real mess as the stopped flow caused the radiator to pump out quarts of water, instead the dripping ceased as soon as I killed the motor.

Do you think I just overfilled the system and as it warmed up it just sought it's normal level?

Howard Dennis

[Rusty_OToole]

I know on Fords if you leave them sitting idling for long periods they will overheat. They need some forward motion to get enough air thru the radiator. I don't know if this is characteristic of thermosyphon systems? If you want to let it idle you might want to put an electric fan in front of the rad for extra air flow.

Have even heard of Fords overheating when driving normally with a tail wind.

Yes, I think it heated up a bit and expansion made it overflow. Check the coolant level when it cools off, it is probably about the right level now.

[Rusty_OToole]

O ya I am happy you got the car running, and I don't feel too bad that I couldn't diagnose it from 2000 miles away, when you looked right at it for 6 weeks ha ha ha.

It was probably some little thing, a little oil on the points or who knows what.

[Chris Bamford]

...Do you think I just overfilled the system and as it warmed up it just sought it's normal level?

That is generally the case with thermo-syphon Model T Fords.