1952 Russian Pobeda Smugglled

[Guest]

We believe we have found a 1952 Pobeda M20 that was smuggled into the USA in the early 50's by American businessman, Stanley F. Slotkin (Pres. Abbey Rents -1952.) It was later sold to Ripley's "Believe It or Not." On March 13, 1963, the car was sold to Newman's Garage of Columbia, SC. Lots of original documentation including an owners manual, the original "release" letter from Ripley's Believe It or Not. Stories about this car from magazines appeared (Nov 1952)-"I Smuggled a car out of Russia.", by Robert L. Behme, and "Auto" (1952)- "The Victory" also by Robert L. Behme. It is this same car with all this histoy that we believe we have found. We don't collect cars and don't know much about them. Please, only serious inquiries need to inquire

[Guest]

Don't sugarcoat it; tell it like it is. I do disagree on South Carolina, though.

[Guest]

the original post was by someone in MICHIGAN.<BR>Not NC. Hey General!!! Pick on ME not him!

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Dear General,<P>I would dare say that few automotive marques have "improved" in the hands of the managers which suceeded their founders... and I particularly wish that FoMoCo would keep Bill Ford out of its TV ads...but anyway, I wonder if you'd be as hard on someone posting about about a box of quality(but smuggled, Communist) Cuban see-gars?<P>While not wishing to impinge on the right to freedom of speech, perhaps such vitriol could be saved for letters to our elected representatives?

[Guest]

Romney had NOTHING to do with Packard????. He was a Michigan Governor!

[Guest]

Dear Mr. General<P>Please take a valium, go back to bed and get up on the other side of it next time.<P>This an antique automobile forum. Please direct you venom to the John Birch Society website @ <A HREF="http://www.jbs.org." TARGET=_blank>www.jbs.org.</A> <P>Thank you

[Guest]

General ~ You may bill yourself as a General, but you obviously have the intelligence of a [censored] yardbird. ~ hvs

[Guest]

Sounds like Petey had too much coffee this morning.

[Guest]

This guy seems like an equal opportunity offender.<BR>Lets see, what can I say to get a reply..........<P>My '32 Nash is a CLASSIC! and I love Cuban rum and stogies......................

[Guest]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. lets see here. 2 + 2 + 2 = i dont know, lost count.<P>Maybe someone can post a pic of a Pobeda????<P>Do u suppose it looks like a Zis or something????

[Guest]

He has to be some dumba$$ just yanking our chain. Probably doesn't know a Packard from a Chevy.

[Guest]

Please elaborate on how buying a 50-year old Russian car supports Communism. I know folks who collect Nazi and Japanese Imperial war relics (flags, weapons, vehicles, aircraft, etc.). They're not seeking to express support for the regimes that produced them. They're simply trying to preserve a piece of history. I recall several years back when a prominent Las Vegas collector drew criticism for collecting Mercedes Benz WWII vintage staff cars. I realize that there are neo-Nazis and Communists out there, but I don't think that collecting their old cars qualifies you for membership. Getting back to the subject, there's a good picture of a '52 on p. 453 of the Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars (my scanner's not working, or I'd post it). The spelling in my book is Pobieda. It looks like an old Volvo with a '46 Chevy grill.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Don't take the General too seriously, folks.<P>I immediately thought of a Colonel that is famous. He was actually a "private" in the Army, served 6 months in Cuba, but, perplexing as it is, was promoted to Colonel "years" after he was discharged and started selling fried chicken. <P>Go figure...<P>Regards, Peter J.

[Guest]

I would say that based on the IQ displayed by the general that he (or she) would not be up to the standards of the Colonel or even old McDonald for that matter. <P>I have no interest in the car myself but would like to see a picture. Sounds like an interesting story behind it. <P>Now do you think the Nazi general will come down on me too?

[Guest]

Here is a photo of one:<BR> <BR>Kinda looks like a 40's era Chevy, doesn't it? hmmmm<P> <BR>Looks like there are even hot rodders in Russia!

[Guest]

So whats the consensus folks? Is "General" harmless or should i censor him or sick the KGB on him? <P>(i wonder if he drives a German or or Japanese car? hmmm)<p>[ 08-15-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[Guest]

Send in the KKK

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Peter: Don't send in the KGB yet. (Great photos by the way.) <P>I like Indiana Bob's suggestion. We'll chip in, send him a huge amount of Krispe Kreme's, bloat his chest to the point that his medals pop off like flies on Buffalo dung, then we can culture him in the "Hobby" and "Fun" and "Enjoyment", of which, we all are interested.<P>Regards, Peter J.

[rocketraider]

I think the General has a severe inferiority complex disguised as an ego. <P>He sounds like many of the people I've known who have never actually lived in the South, but get all their info about its culture and inhabitants from Gomer Pyle or Dukes of Hazzard. I daresay he has never opened a Faulkner, Wolfe or Caldwell book, or heard the Marshall Tucker Band, or studied the Confederate generals' military strategies.<P>Let him alone. We've seen others on here who demonstrated their foolishness beyond all doubt. Such people are good for comic relief because you cannot take them seriously. We might take such people a little more seriously if they would register instead of hide.<P>Now let's get back to old cars. This may be a Communist Russian-built vehicle, but it is an antique car nonetheless and therefore appropriate to this forum.<P>From Tobacco Road...<P>rocketraider

[Guest]

Maybe the General needs to spend about a week one nite here in Nashville with some of the girls.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

In my previous post on the topic, I was going to suggest that perhaps "the General" had once a bad experience with a bottle of "potato-squeezins", and therefore was forever dis-inclined towards all things Russian! <P>Anyway, thanks to the guys who posted the pics!<BR>Kind of reminds me of a P-series Volvo, a'40's Ford, a '46-/'47 Chevy, and perhaps a '50 Plymouth all thrown in the styling blender, and this was the result! <P>Cheers!

[Guest]

Hey general, where are you buddy?<BR>It's time for some more geo-political vaporings mixed with personal attacks, sure beats coffee for startin' off the morn.

[Guest]

Hey PFH!!!! do u suppose it has a streight 16 Packard engine????/

[Guest]

on a more serious note: i wonder what kind of engine and drive train it does have????

[Guest]

or better yet, maybe launch a little recovery expedition to Russia with a car hauling trailer or two. Look for 'True Classics' that have been abadononed over there. Perhaps they could loaded on flat cars and shipped a friendly location in Alaska for marshaling. Maybe drive up there thru Alaska, acorss the bearing streights and on into Russia to have a look. I wouldnt mind a some new girl friends over there to to bring back. Does anyone know if the bearing streights could be crossed by vehicle (well equiped PU or van) when its frozen over?????

[Bill Stoneberg]

No,<BR>They have tried to cross the bearing strait with Dogsleds and have not made it. I can't imagine a PU with a trailer doing it. One of those big Russian planes that hold 40 cars is the way to go.<P>Another question though,<P>Why is it y'all who live in Virgina think you live in the South ? South of what ? Are we talking about Mason Dixon Line south ?<P>Just curious....<p>[ 08-16-2002: Message edited by: Bill Stoneberg ]

[R W Burgess]

Hey Bill, We here in Virginia are Southerners true and "Grey" because we were the heart of the Confederacy during the War between the States. A majority of the battles were fought on our lands. Our properties were devastated during that time and left most farmers penniless. You know the saying,"Hell No, We'll Never Forget". Besides,We talk funny just like everyone down south. Wayne

[Guest]

I think our friend the "general" is off polishing his jackboots and chambering a parabellum in his Luger in anticipation of returning to the fray.<BR>How can I be certain of this? in another previous reply he told us how he felt about the Israelis so the ugly spectre of anti-semitism seems present and the general may well say with Hermann Goering, "when I hear the word intellectual I reach for my pistol".<BR>Cheers everyone.

[Guest]

Bill, I sugest you dust off your old American history book and re-read the chapter about the civil war. If memory serves, the Capital of the Confederacy was in Richmond Va. Also, Robert E. Lee, a player of some note in that war was from Virginia. It's facinating reading. Really.<BR>You might want to visit the Commonwealth of Virginia. Upon doing so you will come to see that Virginia IS the south.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Anyone remember what the original "post" topic was?

[Bill Stoneberg]

I dont need to reread the history books to remember details about the civil war. Texas played a part in it too. I also know that Richmond was the Capitol. I did have to reread a map though to see where Virginia is, and I will have to admit that it is south. <P>I just think that north is any land on the other side of the Red River. <P>You may notice though that when Lee suffered his defeat that he came back down to live along the Gulf Coast in the deep south. <P>Bye y'all.

[Dave@Moon]

I'm sorry. I just stopped laughing at BillP's comment (it took a few days). I wish I'd have jumped in here sooner.<P>At any rate I just realized that this thread has just gone on too long to have not mentioned Krispy Kremes by now. There, done.<P>O.K., now back to figuring our which war The General thinks he's still fighting.

[Guest]

LI ~ Are you certain Hermann Wilhelm Goering said that. It seems a bit out of character for him.

[Guest]

Damn...I leave you guys alone for a while...and look at the trouble you get into.<P>First question...did the guy say he knew someone who SMUGGLED...or SNUGGLED up to some Russian car...?<P>On second thought...either way...not sure how bright a guy would be...to do that. SNUGGLING up to a Russian car, given their famous questionable quality-control....I mean...the sharp edges.....could be painful. <P>SMUGGLING a Russian car...into the United States...? Hmmmm...Well...I can see doing it with a late '40's to early '50's ZIS. Sure..the car is a pile of crudely made and sloppily assembled junk, and a truly sorry immitation of a '42 Packard...but so what...SOMEONE might buy the damn thing. Heck..I know a couple of Packard publications where you might get a neat story printed about it (hmm....how about a big in line V-23....)<P>.....naw..on second thought...that wouldn't work either...they've been "burned" so many times on wild stories.....they are probably "on their guard" now...<P>Well...perhpas you could trade the thing for a couple of BRITNEY SPEARS Video Tapes..?<P>( damn..sorry I wasn't in THIS "thread" from the start....!)<P>Pete Hartmann

[Idle Swede]

PH,????? Why did you leave us alone for a while?

[rocketraider]

Bill- that was Jeff Davis who retired to Beauvoir on the Gulf Coast. Mr. Lee retired to and died in Lexington VA where he was president of Washington College, now Washington & LEE University. Lexington is a fascinating little town to explore. Come visit when the Roanoke Region does a show!<P>Won't do any good to read most modern American history books concerning the War. They hit the high spots and try to PC-ise it. History re-written to suit contemporary mores is history lost, as we've seen earlier in this thread.<P>I define the South as anywhere that people say "y'all" or "all y'all" naturally. "You-ins" as said in western NC and parts of Kentucky will also pass for Southern! <P>From Danville VA- the Last Capital of the Confederacy (a distinction the city leaders fail to exploit in their tourist brochures <BR> )<p>[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: rocketraider ]

[Guest]

Pete ~ Have you ever had any direct contact with a ZIS? Have you ever ridden in or driven one. I have and it was a very interesting car. <P>The ZIS I had contact with belonged to a Mr. Hoyle Dobson who resided in Columbia, SC back in the '50s, and that is when I drove it. My understanding of its history was that it was captured by the US Army in Korea after being sent there from Russia. It was ?presented? to US General Walton Walker who I believe was killed in a jeep accident in Korea. The ZIS came back to the US as part of his personal property and was later sold by his widow. How Dobson came to own it I do not know and what happened to it in later years I also do not know. Everybody involved with my experience at that time is now dead.<P>What I recall about the car was that it was RED [probably not the original color], it was large and extremely heavy. As the result of the weight, the performance was not great and gave between 4 and 6 MPG, but then it was built for luxury use in Moscow. It was probably interesting to drive in Korea.<P>Anyway, I did not view it as a collection of crudely made, ill fitting junk at that time. Perhaps, being the Packard guy that you are, has prejudiced your evaluation of the ZIS.<P>And, no I am not a Communist sympathizer, fellow traveler or Red apologist. I just think history is best presented by those who were there or had direct contact with the historical object in question. What we read in books on historical events is colored by the writer's opinions at best and pure crap at the worst. But of course, that is just my opinion.<P>I wonder if I am the only one on this forum who has driven a ZIS?<P>hvs<P>PS: I just went back and reread the opening post on this thread. Interesting that Columbia, South Carolina plays a part in both of the vehicles. I know my SC connection is accurate, as my uncle who lived in Columbia is the one who took me to Meet Mr. Dobson and see the car.<p>[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Steve Moskowitz]

Good Grief...nothing much else to say about this thread. However, HVS, although i never have driven a VIS I sure had problems with them as a teen-ager. That damn Clearasil never worked!

[Guest]

for HVS<P>Actually..I have never actually seen a Packard "180"...either....the only car I am REALLY familiar with..is the little plastic one my mommie got for me at K Mart...which I push around on the floor and make "rrmmmmm"noises.<P>Yeah..I think the one you rode in is the same one I saw that was being paraded around the country back in the 1960's. You are partially correct..I did NOT get to drive it. But a number of us looked it over, and all kinds of articles floating around, were based on its examination by all kinds of self-styled "experts".<P>Dont feel badly about being "taken in" by the "Roosevelt tricked Packard out of its large car dies and snuck em over to the Commies". I am embarressed to tell you that one of my friends from the old days, who is a well known "authority" on Packards...himself (god knows why..he should have known better)...got suckered into that..for a while...( until the basics of tool and die work were explained to him ).<P>Given the way the Russkies threw that pile of scrap iron together..I betcha it had to weigh at least 7,000 lbs. Good engineering dictates you make a part as light as you can, so as to make it as efficient as you can, and still meet the design loads, plus a reasonable "fudge factor". My recollection of the "Korean-capture" ZIS...is that the thing was built MUCH heavier than anything I'd ever seen in the United States.<P>I have HEARD, but of course I do not know this for certain, again...only CONJECTURE that when the Russians tried to "back engineer" the motor, they correctly recognized they would have to dramatically lower the compression to get it to run on the gas that was commericially available in Russia following World War Two. That assumption makes sense...a low compression version of that era "flat head" motor...assuming it to be true, betcha the damn thing was a gutless bad-handling slug of a car. I am also GUESSING, again, without knowing what I am talking about, that the Russians HAD to make the damn thing much heavier, as they were dealing with much more primitve steel grading, and thus HAD to make parts heavier, to compensate for questionable steel.<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Pete ~ I drove the car at the old Army Air Corps Base at Columbia, SC, where my grandfather had worked on modifications to B-17s during the war. He was a little guy and 72 years old, but his small stature made him invaluable for work in certain areas of the airplane.<P>I recall that my ZIS test run was made on either an old runway or taxiway, and even there the overweight monster was not too sprightly. Your weight estimate is pretty close to what I remember being told.<P>hvs