Guest Edgar Bowen Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Hi Phil, What you show and tell indicates that you should proceed with great caution. This engine has been rebuilt and fitted with Chrysler/Dodge pistons and may not need any further work done on it. If you have not removed the engine, don't unless you are certain it needs new bearings. Observe the top of the pistons, whether they have +20, +40 or +60 stamped on them. That tells you the bore over-size in thousandths of an inch if the cylinders have been re-bored.Now is the time to call in an expert mechanic for an opinion. I would not take the pulley off the nut as you may be glad of it either to run a fan, or else an alternator to provide electric lights, traffic indicators, stop lights, GPS, etc. With LED lights the options are numerous.Remove and replace broken bolts, use the thinnest possible gasket material for attaching the cylinders. Use 2mm (5/64inch) rubberised cork gasket material for the side plate as a first approximation. Your aim is to have as little backlash on the timing gear as possible without the teeth bottoming. You will know if the side plate gasket is too thin because the gears will make a significant noise as they mesh. If your cam shaft is badly worn on the lobes, now is a good time to replace it with a new camshaft obtainable from Tye Cams in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia for about $400. I had three of them made using an old camshaft for a pattern, so Tye Cams have all the manufacture data for their CNC lathes. (Have a look on the internet.) Postage won't be too expensive as they are not all that heavy. I melted the new camshaft into the side plate myself and can send full details on how to do it for you or your engine re-builder. In either case you would benefit from my expertise and save yourself a lot of heart ache if you choose to go that way. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 A couple of pic of an original for you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 Thanks for the useful tips. I got the broken engine bolt off trying every trick: left-hand drill bits, EZ Out, welding. Finally, I was able to connect two holes I drilled (off-center, of course!) with a screwdriver tapped down with a hammer. The bolt cam right out with a wrench on the screwdriver blade.I didn't like that hardware store pulley on the front, so I hack-sawed off the spokes and turned it down on my lathe. It's still welded to the flywheel nut, but I think it looks OK.No numbers stamped on the pistons, but they seem to have good compression. Perhaps the car uses less oil since they have two "wiper" rings. I kept the flywheel in place. Should I get into the clutch and transmission now that things are exposed? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Thanks for the useful tips. I got the broken engine bolt off trying every trick: left-hand drill bits, EZ Out, welding. Finally, I was able to connect two holes I drilled (off-center, of course!) with a screwdriver tapped down with a hammer. The bolt cam right out with a wrench on the screwdriver blade.[ATTACH=CONFIG]209390[/ATTACH]I didn't like that hardware store pulley on the front, so I hack-sawed off the spokes and turned it down on my lathe. It's still welded to the flywheel nut, but I think it looks OK.[ATTACH=CONFIG]209391[/ATTACH]No numbers stamped on the pistons, but they seem to have good compression. Perhaps the car uses less oil since they have two "wiper" rings. I kept the flywheel in place. Should I get into the clutch and transmission now that things are exposed? PhilIf the crankshaft bearings are good I would let sleeping dogs lie. You can take the lid off the gearbox to see how it looks; turn everything over in and out of gear, low, high and reverse to check it. Adjustments are made in situ.Yes, oil consumption will be reduced and power increased a lot. Looks real good! The bolt that broke is the one with a long head but it doesn't really matter.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 I'd be pretty tempted to leave it in also.Be real careful with the pistons hangin' there , you don't want to ding the bottom of them.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 (edited) Any tricks for replacing the jugs over the pistons? They're pretty heavy. Perhaps a hoist should be used to lower them? Since there is no cylinder head, the pistons are inserted "backwards". Is a standard piston ring compressor used?Phil Edited August 19, 2013 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 It's really not that difficult. You need a piston ring compressor that comes apart (i.e. the band separates), and not all of them do this...that's the only real trick..... Slather everything with oil, of course. You can do one piston at a time, and if you have a helper or two it's all doable by hand, the jugs just aren't that heavy. You could use a hoist if you wish, but it doesn't need to be a big one!The other day someone asked me what the engine in my Pierce weighs, it's over 1000 pounds with all the accessories. I told them the engine in the Pierce weighs just about what the entire Hupmobile weighs! Of course, mine has no doors, and at present time windshield is off and no top.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 It's really not that difficult. You need a piston ring compressor that comes apart (i.e. the band separates), and not all of them do this...that's the only real trick..... Slather everything with oil, of course. You can do one piston at a time, and if you have a helper or two it's all doable by hand, the jugs just aren't that heavy. You could use a hoist if you wish, but it doesn't need to be a big one!The other day someone asked me what the engine in my Pierce weighs, it's over 1000 pounds with all the accessories. I told them the engine in the Pierce weighs just about what the entire Hupmobile weighs! Of course, mine has no doors, and at present time windshield is off and no top....I have just done mine and used zip ties. A hoist to let the cylinders down makes it easier.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I had help with a friend ,small chain falls, wasn't too awful.Here is a pic of the type of ring compressor we used Lisle tools (wrinkle band ). But I also liked Edgar's zip ties.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 A mechanic friend is working on my Packard Super 8 block, I removed it leaving pistons in place on connecting rods. He says we can install them the same way as discussed on the Hupp, just have to do two pistons at a time and lower block as we go, using the removable ring compressors as pictured....... I look at those 8 pistons growing out of the crankcase and shudder just a little bit....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 I removed the differential bearing races today, though it took a bit longer than I'd hoped. I tried pressing them off, but the flat part that backs up the thrust washers broke out. Maybe I didn't use enough heat. Anyway, I used a grinding wheel and small grinder on my Dremel tool to cut almost through the sleeves. Eventually, they cracked with a blow from a cold chisel and came right off. I scratched the inner portion a bit on one, which you can see in the photo, but I don't think it will affect anything.The Timken tapered bearing press-fit nicely:Here is the bearing with cup in place. This is the same diameter as the cut-out in the differential housing:Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Hi Phil , Maybe I should "bite my lip" here but I feel the intent of using the forum is to share.learn and hopefully add to the sum of human knowledge so I will politely proceed.Mostly due to the fact that race was made from unobtainum.Now it's in the trash.The method I suggested would have the race off and hopefully on your shelf or mine ( I would have offered a fair price) to be re-used in another Hupp.I hope you don't feel I stepped on your toes, and I hope to continue to be helpful in the future.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 No offence taken, Ken. I thought the method I chose would take them off safely, but no such luck. In short, this is not my first dumb mistake. Your future comments may save me from more such regrets... if I listen. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Very nice to hear Phil,While you have the jugs off you may want to have the bores checked by someone farmiliar with this type of work. Unless of course you know the work history. If the boring was done by a shop that only does modern engines they may not know to radius the end of the cut ( in a blind bore) .If not done there is a risk of cracking.take care, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I've heard stories of people installing pistons in the headless jugs such as the Hupp, and they went too far...with the rings expanding so that pistons couldn't move out of upper cylinder! And no way to compress them.....just a story I've heard.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I've heard stories of people installing pistons in the headless jugs such as the Hupp, and they went too far...with the rings expanding so that pistons couldn't move out of upper cylinder! And no way to compress them.....just a story I've heard....Hi, been there and done that! It isn't about boring too far down the cylinder, you have to go as far as you can. It's about the pistons and thickness of the rings. Dodge pistons are OK but if you use the original cast iron pistons and put two narrow rings in place of one wide one, you're in big trouble. If in doubt you will have to take measurements.I very much doubt you need to have your cylinders re-bored anyway. I would simply put in a new set of rings if that is what is necessary. These engines by virtue of their low compression and revs are very forgiving.Be guided by someone knowledgeable in veteran antique cars because they are an altogether different ball game from current engineering practices.By the way, I can't stress enough the desirability of fitting air filters to the carburreter to stop the engine from getting dusted.All the best, Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Just to be clear , I was not suggesting that the cylinders be re- bored.Only that if they had been to double check the work. The radius I refered to is only to relieve stress at the end of the cut.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Cut a new viewing glass for the oiler today. McMaster doesn't sell the needed diameter, so Lucille used her jewelry glass grinder. It has a diamond wheel and a water coolant flow.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Hi Phil , Maybe I should "bite my lip" here but I feel the intent of using the forum is to share.learn and hopefully add to the sum of human knowledge so I will politely proceed.Mostly due to the fact that race was made from unobtainum.Now it's in the trash.The method I suggested would have the race off and hopefully on your shelf or mine ( I would have offered a fair price) to be re-used in another Hupp.I hope you don't feel I stepped on your toes, and I hope to continue to be helpful in the future.KenIf you need those original diff parts Ken, I have some.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 Is a 1/8" (.125) thick cork gasket OK for the camshaft casting? My old one is that thickness, but not sure what it's made of.PhilPhil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Is a 1/8" (.125) thick cork gasket OK for the camshaft casting? My old one is that thickness, but not sure what it's made of.PhilPhilI think plain cork would be okay but I actually used a rubberized cork. The main thing is to have the timing gear meshing well with the crankshaft gear; too close, i.e. with the teeth bottoming and they will make a nasty noise when you spin the engine with the crank handle. If they are too far apart there will be too much back lash. Inevitably there will be some back lash. Don't worry about that because engineering technology 100 years ago was a bit primitive.Just a tip about putting back the side plate; two threaded 5/16th inch rods screwed into the crank case will take the weight of the side plate and let you slip it on with the gasket much more easily. Also be sure you have the gear set in the right position so the valve timing is correct.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted September 7, 2013 Author Share Posted September 7, 2013 I'm installing the jugs. Since I don't have room for an engine hoist, I'm using a chain hoist hug from a pipe. I can slide the hoist left/right along the pipe and also back & forth by moving the pipe along the board I screwed to the joist. The ring compressor works pretty good.One of the valve stems seems too short, and I wonder what replacement valves I could use; perhaps Model T or the like. Any suggestions?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted September 7, 2013 Author Share Posted September 7, 2013 One of my priming cups broke off, and it looks like it was made up of parts (photo below). Did Hupp use standard 1/8" pipe thread priming cups, such as sold by Restoration Supply?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 One of my priming cups broke off, and it looks like it was made up of parts (photo below). Did Hupp use standard 1/8" pipe thread priming cups, such as sold by Restoration Supply?[ATTACH=CONFIG]212812[/ATTACH]PhilThe answer is yes. To your question about valves the answer is I do not know Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 Priming cups were standard thread but long stem to fit down in the screw cap, standard priming cups won't work....and long stem are hard to find but can be fabricated.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted November 11, 2013 Author Share Posted November 11, 2013 I just discovered some inner oil seals on each side of the differential housing. They are felt seals, but I found a rubber seal I think will fit. Are these seals original, or were they added to the car?Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Hi Phil, all original Hupp oil seals were made of felt so best to use modern replacements where possible. I think I had to get a bit turned out of the inside of the housing shown in your picture to fit a new type of seal although my memory is a bit dim.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Thanks, Edgar. I was thinking the rear axles had only outer seals, but was wrong. My next thought is to try some John Deere "Corn Head Grease" in the differential, an interesting lubricant that flows freely, but resists leakage. Here is a video: Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Thanks, Edgar. I was thinking the rear axles had only outer seals, but was wrong. My next thought is to try some John Deere "Corn Head Grease" in the differential, an interesting lubricant that flows freely, but resists leakage. Here is a video: PhilThanks a lot for that tip Phil, I will definitely try the John Deere grease. It should be just the right thing. It might even work in the universal joint too.I have my Hupp running perfectly now after several carburetor adjustments. I go to church in it and take it to do my shopping to the amusement of people down town.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 I'm finally ready to re-assemble the differential (having had one axle machined). How can I measure if the mating surfaces of the housing are flat? That is, that the torque tubes are in aligment? I thought I would assemble it with a little "Right Stuff" sealant.Oddly, the right differential case bronze bearing (the inner casting that spins) is very tight on the axle shaft. In fact, I can't push the axle through it. It may fit when I get it on with a bit more force. I'll post some photos later.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I'm finally ready to re-assemble the differential (having had one axle machined). How can I measure if the mating surfaces of the housing are flat? That is, that the torque tubes are in aligment? I thought I would assemble it with a little "Right Stuff" sealant.Oddly, the right differential case bronze bearing (the inner casting that spins) is very tight on the axle shaft. In fact, I can't push the axle through it. It may fit when I get it on with a bit more force. I'll post some photos later.PhilHi Phil, I have a mandrel made up to fit inside the rear axle housings so they can be turned in a lathe. That is by far the most accurate method of determining how true the mating faces of the dif bell housing are.As to the bronze bearing, I wait to see a photo of it. Wishing you a Merry Christmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 G,Day to all. In the early Hup the crownwheel carrier ran on angular contact ballraces no thrust bearing was required obviously BUT the tunnels had to be accurately in line. This would have been an expensive machine operation probably done by Beyster Swartz on contract. By changing to HYATT flexible roller the very accurate matchup was no longer so important and the housings were treated as an individual replacement part. One side fits all after grinding off the not needed part no, hence the two oil level plug heights. Fill to an inch below the low plug not the top one. .If fitting modern taper roller of Timken type check accurately if the tunnels are concentric with the joint flanges because the new bearings will not self align. Edgars tip of accurately mounting the housing to the bearing tunnel and then dressing the flange is the way to go here .Tapered roller bearings of course will not need the separate thrust. I would only use the three small screws to find the location of the crownwheel . I would use a shim pack or make up full size spacers for final location. Remember that down the axle tube is a poured in white metal bearing retained by the heads of the rivets. It served as an extra support and should have deterred oil rushing into the brakes. In this regard it is a failure and its removal requires melting out. Now go out to the axle at the wheel end and with the hyatt bearing assembled determine if there is lift in the shaft. if there is any at all, no matter what seal you fit, the result will be of a temporary nature. From a specialist replacement house for FORD look in the pictures of the Ford replacement for the rear wheel bearing assembly. Copy this setup. I made ours using two lipped seals and two sealed ballraces. No more leak. Well i,m called for Christmas Dinner right now so Happy times to all the HUPPERS. And remember Edgar , when you go through to Nowra Your bed is made up at our house. Max BURKE, Nulkaba Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted December 26, 2013 Author Share Posted December 26, 2013 Here is my rear-end setup with the new Timken taper bearings. The 3/8" spacers are to make up for the shorter Timken bearings. This is the view looking forward to the front of the car. The ring gear had thin brass shim stock under its bolts, but I'm not re-using that. The right differential half is the one that is very tight on the axle. I'll be trying to get that to fit. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 G,day Mochet. Don't forget to turn it end for end One reverse gear is enough. Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted December 29, 2013 Author Share Posted December 29, 2013 You solved my problem, Max, if the ring gear goes on the left side as you look toward the front of the car. I took photos, but lost my orientation.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 What nuts were used to attach the differential ring gear? I've seen split (castellated) nuts with cotter pins, also regular hex nuts with safety wire. Here's a photo of the nuts that were on my ring gear: hex nuts with lock washers. There was safety wire threaded through the bolt holes. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Hi Phil,Here is a pic of mine .Hope that helps.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 The castle nuts seem a logical way to go, Ken. I ordered a self-locking type used on aircraft.Thanks,Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldenguy Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Phil, whatever you do, never use the spring type lock washers(as pictured from the previous owner) inside any differential, transmission, or engine. They will crack/break and we know what the pieces can do to gear teeth and other reciprocating parts. --Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 Thanks, Bob. I'll avoid the split washers.Happy 2014,Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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