Another Hupmobile Model 20

[MochetVelo]

Yes, the Hyatts look OK, Ken. It would make the job easier to keep them, if that is practical. Any suggestions on what thrust bearing to use? I see various types including 3-piece units, etc.

As for fitting the tapered bearings, Edgar, you are correct that the I.D. is straight (my mistake), but it is too small. I assume the inner race of the old Hyatt bearing (arrow in photo) must be removed, but how is that done? Not much to grab a hold of.

Phil

[KenHupp20]

Phil, have you found any numbers on the thrust bearings ?

I think I would visit a bearing specialty shop with what you have . Will the outer race come out of the housing O.K. ? You might need that to check clearence.

By the way have you checked the bronze "T " Bushings inside the diff housing ?

Ken

[MochetVelo]

I see no numbers, Ken. I'm still thinking how to pop out the remaining thrust bearing. There isn't much to grab on to (photo below). I don't know about the "T" bushings you mention. I haven't taken apart the inner housing yet. Are they in there?

Phil

[MochetVelo]

Here's a trick I might try: weld a bead onto the bearing and it will contract slightly to effect removal. Might be worth a try...

Phil

[MochetVelo]

I was able to press the thrust bearing out from the inside of the differential gear case; no welding needed. My next decision is whether to keep the existing Hyatt roller bearings and add new thrust bearings, or go with the Timken tapered bearings. The latter is tempting, but the existing sleeve is too large for the 28682 Timken bearing cone (inner race). I'm pondering if this sleeve can be removed.

Here is the thrust bearing; interesting construction: it's bronze with steel rollers dropped into rounded cut-outs. A sleeve is then pressed on the O.D. to hold them in place... for a while.

Phil

Edited July 31, 2013 by MochetVelo (see edit history)

[KenHupp20]

Hi Phil, Progress ! AS David Coco says restoration in 2000 small jobs.

I wonder if the "carrier" portion of that bearing being tight led to it's failure ?

Ken

[MochetVelo]

I brought my axle and wheel to a metal spray shop for an estimate on restoring a good fit. The shop is only a few blocks from my house. The other option, of course, is to machine a new axle. That should not be too difficult as there are no tapers, threads or odd shapes. I am curious what the metal spray costs, however.

Dandy Dave wrote a nice Forum post on axle fabrication, if anyone is interested.

Phil

[MochetVelo]

Could anyone tell me what this bracket is for? Two machine screws into the engine block hold two steel bars, but not sure why...

Also, were the engines all gray in color?

Phil

[trimacar]

The two bars support the four spark plug wires, with the wires sandwiched between....I thought on mine the bars were a non-conductive material, but they could be steel...

My research showed engine and all running gear black, frame same color as body, fenders black....the earlier cars were all a poppy red, and sometime in 1910 a blue was offered....

Edited August 4, 2013 by trimacar (see edit history)

[MochetVelo]

Thanks. I should have known that, David. A closer look shows that they are, indeed, fiberboard and not steel. Here is another plug wire holder used on the 1910 Hupmobile "World Tour" car. It holds the wires well away from the exhaust manifold:

Speaking of the intake manifold, mine has its base cut off, as shown below. It seems divided, having two air passages. Does the "rear" (side toward the block) passage connect to the carburetor base while the "front" to the carburetor flange only? I'd like to make a new base for it. What is the set-screw on the top for (arrow in photo)?

Phil

Edited August 4, 2013 by MochetVelo (see edit history)

[KenHupp20]

Hi Phil, Here are some photos of the lower portion of the manifold. With the plug in place for cold weather air is drawn in at the top opening and comes down the side of the manifold next to the engine into the carb. With the plug removed air is drawn in the bottom.Note the weep hole( ?) near the bottom.

As to the small hole with the plug ? I don't think it something Hupp did , shade tree mechanic long time ago ? Plug a casting flaw ?

Hope that helps,

Ken

[MochetVelo]

Thanks, Ken. Does the carb just loosely fit into the hole?

Phil

[MochetVelo]

Must the steering column be removed to take off the oil dispenser box? If so, is it best removed by removing the pinion gear?

[KenHupp20]

If it is installed with bolts you might be able to back them out. I had studs, a bit more of a problem. That means you back the oil box out cut off the studs so you can lift out the oil box,then you have to deal with the studs. Likely a trip to your favorite machinist. You might also want to get a stud tool. If I remember right there was another thread on the subject.I'm sure there are several options here .You might also want to look at pulling the steering wheel and drop the column out that way,then remove the oil box. If your studs are reusable you don't want to mess them up !$$!

If you are already looking at the pinion I would definitly get it off then take out the steering column that way.

Ken

[MochetVelo]

Here's the pinion with its interesting square-end pin. I'm going to try tapping it out, as you suggested. If it's straight, a roll pin would, I think, make a good replacement. My oiler box has rusty studs, but bolts would have been a better design. If the studs come out, maybe I could replace them with bolts... or maybe I should just leave them alone!

Here's the thread about the oiler box and steering column.

Phil

Edited August 5, 2013 by MochetVelo (see edit history)

[KenHupp20]

Yes, leave them alone if you can . Expensive machine shop work.

Ken

[MochetVelo]

I got the estimate for thermal spraying my loose axle: $664.79 to spray (with stainless steel) and machine. I think I'll explore the option of making a new axle. It's got to be cheaper than that!

Phil

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

The little bracket you point to holds the ignition leads, keeping them away from the hot exhaust.

Regarding engine colours, my feeling is that when the early cars, Models A and B (1909 and 1910 seasons) were red with black fenders and the power units were painted black. From about September 1910(new season), all 20 HP Hupps were painted dark blue with black fenders. That means Model B(1911 season) and Models C,D,DT, E and F to Model G(1913 season), power units were painted light grey to match the wheels. I have a cache of Hupmobile parts which seem to support this opinion. I do know for certain that the rear and front axles and torque tube were painted the same colour as the car on Model B at any rate.

Edgar

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

No, Phil, you don't have to remove the steering rod. Just take off the sight glass attachments underneath and by careful manoeuvering ease the dispenser box out by pulling on the steering rod to clear the left bolt, then twist it around to come out of the right bolt above the steering rod. Edgar

[trimacar]

I would go one step further, and say that the "red" mentioned for these cars is not fire engine red, but rather a poppy red (orangish) color.....this has been verified by an original paint sample....and since the question is usually "they didn't have that color back then", I verified the availability with a turn of the century carriage trade color chart.....

Ego aside, I honestly think my car is much closer to original color than most, for a 1910, mid 5000 serial number car (late production 1910)....

Just my opinion of course....picture of frame as it was being done, car is finished now......

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

I go along with that entirely. My car is actually a tomato red very much like the illustrated chassis. Having painted your chassis red you obviously declare it to be a 1910 Model B. In that case did you know that the front springs only had five leaves instead of six with a small plate above to position the u bolts?

[MochetVelo]

Here is a little video I posted concerning my differential bearings. Any suggestions appreciated!

Phil

(Video deleted, but I'll post another with the new bearings)

Edited August 19, 2013 by MochetVelo (see edit history)

[KenHupp20]

Hi Phil, I would start by determining if the Hyatt type roller bearing you have ( and the races ) are serviciable.

If they are a trip to a bearing shop and they will find you a thrust bearing. I'd stay with a roller type,but give it a bit looser fit, not tight on the axle or tight in the inner race. They will likely measure the old rollers and get you matched up. You may need some shims behind the outer race in the final fitting. Let me know ,I've got a box of 'em.

Might as well check the fit of the bevel gears in the bronze bushings. I've got a couple of those too .

If the Hyatt is no good then the tapered, but I'd stick with the original if it were me .

Ken

[MochetVelo]

I just returned from the bearing distributor. Their patience with me is thinning. I set out all the parts, as in the above video, and asked for my options. The guy said there were no thrust bearings that will fit this application. Needle bearings (like the original) "are way too small," said he. The new roller-type, as in the video, are designed to run in hardened washers with races to match them. Ferruccio suggested a thrust bearing used atop shock absorbers, but I haven't yet found one of those.

Phil

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Hello there Phil,

A picture speaks a thousand words and as soon as I saw your audio visual I went straight to my shed, got out the dif. parts and immediately saw what needed to be done. Press out the sleeve that holds the Hyatt bearing from inside and you will find the Timken bearing fits straight on where that sleeve came off, no worries at all, you're almost there.

Good luck Phil from Edgar

[MochetVelo]

I was wondering if that was the case, Edgar, but too timid to try it. I'll work on it tomorrow and post the results...

Phil

[MochetVelo]

No luck yet pressing off the differential sleeve. I tried a big hydraulic press with no movement. I stopped when the casting started to flex. I'm not sure where the "sleeve" actually ends and the cast iron begins. I might be able to use more force with a circular support, like a large iron pipe section.

Phil

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Sorry Phil, I didn't tell you what to do if it wouldn't come off. Heat up the sleeve with a torch. I used oxy acetylene and then with a heavy bar inside on the part that takes the thrust bearing, I hammered it off gently using a 4lb hammer. I supported the steel casting on an open vice with two holes of the casting on each side of the vice jaws. The cast iron, ends about the thickness of the Timken bearing.

[KenHupp20]

The other method is to drive out the bronze "T" bushing then drill three holes thu the casting so you can use a drift to tap the race off from the inside.Similar to the three holes in the differential housing to drive out the outter race. Still using heat if you need to.

Some info from McMaster -CArr McMaster-Carr

if you're interested.

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Phil, I have taken some pictures of the dif. carrier with and without the hyatt bearing sleeve in place. They are in JEPG format 1.25 MB each picture. Would you like me to send them in this format. I am not a computer wiz so let me know what you want.

Edgar

[KenHupp20]

Posting photos is a bit of a challenge alright !

Here is what it will look like. The only difference is the race in this photo is a ball race.

The pencil shows about where to drill if you need to tap the race off( three holes).

Hope that helps.

Ken

[MochetVelo]

I brought the loose axle and wheel to a recommended machinist today. He suggested turning down the straight axle end slightly and installing a bushing in the hub for a better fit. This may change as he thinks it over, but we'll see how it turns out. He's busy, of course, so it may take a long time.

My next consideration is the engine. There was heavy rust in the coolant passages, so I'm considering dis-assembly to check it out more fully. Any tips on the procedure for taking the engine apart? I'm assuming the pistons cannot be pulled out the bottom(?)

Phil

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Hi Phil, the first thing if you have not already done so is to remove the flywheel with an improvised puller. Loosen the big nut holding it on. Place 2 heavy pieces of steel one on each side behind the flywheel with bolts in them that come thru the spokes. Have another piece of heavy steel on the front with two holes for those bolts and a heavy bolt that screws into the middle of it, and presses onto the front of the crankshaft inside the screw that holds it on to stop it from slipping off. Now screw up that central bolt until it pulls the flywheel off its taper on the crankshaft. Also remove the magneto before it gets damaged.

Remove the manifolds by undoing their clamps and undo the 2 nuts that hold on the oil reservoir and the oil feed pipes into the crankcase. Remove the reservoir. Remove the top water pipe.

If you have any nuts or bolts that are rusted on, soak them with eucalyptus oil. It is better than anything else. Avoid undoing any of the bolts on which nuts have been attached that come out of the cylinder jugs or you might 'open a can of worms'. If they are so eroded as to be likely to break, you have a problem, In which case consult me further before doing anything. I've been there and done all that.

Next unbolt the cylinders from the crankcase and lift them off. Observe there is one bolt with a longer head than the rest. Note where it is and remember to put it back where it came from. In fact I advise returning all bolts where they came from once any components are removed. Leave the pistons behind still attached to the crankshaft. Now you can do a detailed inspection of the cylinder jugs including measuring how much wear there is in the bores which helps to determine what has to be done to the engine. You can also clean all the rust and junk out of the water jackets. I use compressed air and an old screw driver to chip rust away. Another trick is to soak them a few days in molasses and water 1:4 mix - wonderful stuff! If you soak them in molasses, dry the bores immediately and oil them or they will rust with great speed. Give the latter a spray with lanolin. There is nothing better.

Do not undo the pistons from the crankshaft before consulting me because there are lots of traps for the unwary.

Good luck, Edgar

[MochetVelo]

Thanks for those tips. A previous owner attached a pulley in front of the flywheel which I must remove first. I'm not sure how he did it, as it has no set screws or threads. It must be a press fit.

Phil

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Hi Phil, the pulley is not a problem it will come off as soon as you undo the nut. It has been put there to run a fan to correct over heating which is an endemic design fault in these cars. I changed my radiator core but that's another story. There are other options for the cooling system.

All the best, Edgar

[MochetVelo]

Must the engine come out with the transmission attached, or can they be unbolted and removed separately?

Phil

[trimacar]

They need to come out together because of the way the rear of the assembly attaches to the frame.

As far as overheating, if a Hupp does overheat there's something wrong. The original thermosyphon system works fine if all is clean. I've driven mine for miles at low speed in low gear, in 90 degree heat, and it never overheated ( flat tire and drove on rim, I know...) nor has it ever overheated in any driving

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

Hi Phil, It is much the easiest to remove the engine and gearbox as a single unit because of the cross members. It also makes it easiest to do, by withdrawing the hand brake rod which is linked to the reverse gear rod coming out of the back of the gearbox. Remove the pin out of the small lever on the opposite end to the hand brake lever and withdraw the handbrake and rod together.

After removing the radiator and various linkages, drain the oil, undo the engine mounting bolts and lift the whole engine out. Next undo the gearbox bolts and separate engine and gearbox, supporting the latter. I find chocks of wood under the engine mounts very helpful in keeping the whole unit vertical while working on it.

Once the engine and gearbox are separate, the clutch can be withdrawn from the engine. It is a press on fit to the crankshaft and may need some coaxing. I find tyre levers, one each side useful for this. The clutch drum actually forms the rear main bearing journal of the crankshaft so don't be brutal with it. Inside the clutch are multi-discs and a very strong spring impinging on a heavy thrust bearing. Outside the clutch on the journal are brass and fibre washers making another crude form of thrust bearing which you will replace with a Koyo Torrington needle roller bearing #AS7095 or its equivalent.

All the best, Edgar

Edited August 17, 2013 by Edgar Bowen (see edit history)

[MochetVelo]

Lifting the jugs revealed aluminum pistons. Not sure what type they are, but they have slots cut in the sides, and 4 rings. I also discovered one jug bolt broken off. Were there any gaskets under the jugs? Mine have none. Also, does anyone sell the camshaft assembly gasket?

Phil

[MochetVelo]

The pulley in front of my flywheel turned out to be welded to the flywheel nut, so I unscrewed them together. A question: was the curved starter crank connection (where the crank end inserts) part of the nut? If so, I can just try to cut off the pulley from it.

Phi