1958 Buick Muffler Orientation - this doesn't seem right!

[lancemb]

OK please straighten me out somebody! I recently ordered an OEM style exhaust system for the 58, but am baffled by the fit of the muffler/resonator assembly coming off of the front pipe. Please read all the way down if you have installed one of these or have some other deeper knowledge you can share. Thanks!

I have attached pictures to help illustrate. Note in this first one the sketch from the shop manual, which clearly shows how it should be mounted. Given the location of the opening off of the front of the muffler, there can be no mixing up of the right and left side while keeping the muffler parallel to the outer frame rail.

HOWEVER, the confusing part is another characteristic, which is the pipe that connects the muffler to the resonator, which is sloped between the two. The photo below supposedly shows an original OEM pair of assemblies, which are made in the same way as my replacement set. Note that the way they are laying in this photo the connector pipes are sloping downward from the muffler back to the resonator. The notes say to rotate 180 degrees to install, which would provide for the correct orientation of the opening at the front of the muffler to match the illustration from the factory manual. However, this causes the muffler to be mounted lower (toward the ground) than the resonator, which is the opposite of the contour of the floor pans since the muffler sits under the front floor pan, the resonator sits under the rear floor pan, and the front floor pans are higher from the ground than the rear. As a result, the muffler "hangs" down a bit, and there is a large gap between the front floor pan and muffler. Mounting it flipped the other way follows the contour of the floor pans pretty much perfectly, but this would require the front muffler opening to be on the opposite side of the muffler in order to mount properly relative to the frame of the car.

Does this make sense? As far as I can tell this is how they were made, but seems screwy to have that big gap under the muffler rather than have it follow the contour of the floor pans. I assume that big gap is intentional then? Why? For cooling purposes? Or is something else amiss here??!

[JohnD1956]

Deferring to those with direct knowledge, my guess is that once flipped, the muffler inlet and resonator outlet would match the holes in the frame where the connecting pipe has to be located. This thru the frame stuff is nice to look at but take your time to align the pipes so nothing on the exhaust touches the frame. I could not believe the difference in cabin noise when mine were fixed after I screwed it up.

[lancemb]

Deferring to those with direct knowledge, my guess is that once flipped, the muffler inlet and resonator outlet would match the holes in the frame where the connecting pipe has to be located. This thru the frame stuff is nice to look at but take your time to align the pipes so nothing on the exhaust touches the frame. I could not believe the difference in cabin noise when mine were fixed after I screwed it up.

It will match up with the pipe either way and mount up, since it has the socket flange type of connections (tried it both ways). I just cannot understand if it is normal to have that extra clearance between the muffler and the front floor pan, or if it should be mostly flush. Really weird...

[lancemb]

Well I think I know the problem. Apparantly there is supposed to be a bracket that mounts to the frame to which the mufflers mount, and my car doesn't have these and I did not know it was supposed to. I have no clue why somebody ever would have taken these off in the first place.

Well, at least I think I know my issue now, but now that is more parts to get and work to do if this is the case!

Edited July 1, 2013 by lancemb
Information to add (see edit history)

[buick man]

Yes, I have in the past 5 years, found only one correct set of 57/58 dual mufflers. That was an NOS set found on ebay this past winter. All other manufactures currently advertising, offer a flavored free handed interpretation of the original item with some even eliminating the center smaller muffler all together and telling you that is correct or only making the passenger's side and give you that to fit onto the driver's side and calling it correct. In the last case they have trouble correctly bending and orienting the smaller pipe coming off of the driver's side and into the smaller muffler. Also the inlet pipe of the main front muffler are both on the same side so if you flip the one over for the driver's side the second smaller muffler is either at the wrong orientation or bend. This is because they do not want to have to cut and make two different main mufflers and only use the one that is supplied to them. That way it only requires dealing with the pipe going between the front and middle muffler. At least one can heat and bend or cut and weld a correctly orientated piece if need be. But yes the process of fitting it correctly is the result of them using just one muffler supplied by "others" as part of the main setup and then trying to make things look and fit right from there. Where did you buy your mufflers from?

Edited July 4, 2013 by buick man (see edit history)

[lancemb]

Buick Man, note that I believe the exhaust will fit just fine after I install the muffler brackets that were missing from my car. I will report back to confirm, though. I got the set from Kepich Exhaust, who sells under klasskollection on Ebay. I have had 2 sets from them I put on 57's and they fit pretty well.

It really would have helped if the parts were marked, though, since I imagine many of the people buying them are not taking off a good example and there is confusion to be had. Plus, I bet there are many other 58's out there without these brackets on them like mine was, and that causes much confusion if you are not familiar, which I was not.

I will say they did a pretty fine job mimicking the original; they were made modeled after an original set. Visually, the main difference is the color of the steel being bright silver rather than the dull grey of the original. Really, this is probably a better steel.

I have my brackets coming next week that I found so by next weekend I should have everything fixed up exhaust-wise, and will be out of time before I need to go to South Bend so hopefully it all works out!

[60FlatTop]

There seem to be a few following this thread so maybe sharing my experience might help a reader.

I couldn't make the nationals in Boston because I would never have been able to make the 6 hour trip with the new vendor bent system hammering and banging under my '60 Electra. It now has production manufactured pipes at the front and a NOS Buick muffler from Ebay. I will never buy another fabricated system from these gemokes again.

I have a constant Ebay search going for a stockpile of exhaust parts for all my cars. Jolly John has helped as well. He finished providing parts for a spare NOS '64 Riviera system. I picked up an early NOS take off system for the Impala on Craigslist. Stuff is still out there and patience is the key.

Bernie

[Glassesguy]

Regarding the front muffler mounts. In early 1958,according to the service bulletins the front mounts were eliminated in production. The Bulletins advised cutting the fabric hangers, removing the brackets, then tightening the bolts that fasten the muffler to the exhaust pipe to 25 ft/lbs to secure for support. Apparently there were lots of complaints of noise and vibration in all series so one of the fixes was to remove these hangers. Among others, the exhaust system pipes were reduced from 2" to 1 3/4 " as well as fan blade sizing, spacing, and number of blades.

Hope this works out for you.

[lancemb]

Regarding the front muffler mounts. In early 1958,according to the service bulletins the front mounts were eliminated in production. The Bulletins advised cutting the fabric hangers, removing the brackets, then tightening the bolts that fasten the muffler to the exhaust pipe to 25 ft/lbs to secure for support. Apparently there were lots of complaints of noise and vibration in all series so one of the fixes was to remove these hangers. Among others, the exhaust system pipes were reduced from 2" to 1 3/4 " as well as fan blade sizing, spacing, and number of blades.

Hope this works out for you.

Wow thanks, I haven't yet had the chance to read the 58 service bulletins and did not think to look there. I was considering just going without the hangers in front, but it seemed like a long expanse with no support. I think I'll still put the brackets on for support and also tighten the joint well. I can't see how some extra support there would hurt anything, so I find it odd that eliminating the brackets was found to be a solution.

[Glassesguy]

Service Bulletins make interesting reading. Sometimes stikes one as engineering on the fly. I agree with you. That is a long expanse without support.

Same with my 39 Special. No front support for that heavy muffler. Century, though, had one. Keep us posted on your progress.

[buick man]

Yeah Mr. John Kepich has come through for me as well. He is the only one even attempting that I know of, to make a truly "real" copy of the original design. Yes keep the rubberize mount just before it goes into the front main mufflers. The second one is just after the middle main muffler. Yet even another mount is hung just as it goes over the axle. The next one is just at the resonator with the the last one as it goes out the bumper corner ends. It is a big n long muffler system and it needs support. Tell us how it all comes out when your done. BTW: The original OEM was a dual wall construction not single wall like what is being sold now-a-days. But I want to believe that the insulation material is better for sound and heat that they are using.

[lancemb]

Well, to let y'all know I got everything installed and buttoned up and it fits pretty darn well! Finally it is oriented the way I expected it to be originally, and I am happy to have the front brackets in place. Again, and especially now, I can't imagine how eliminating these would be an improvement. With the rubber hanger it makes a nice solid and stable installation with no rattling.

My only remaining tweak may be to take another look at the passenger rear resonator to see why it is a bit lower than the driver side. Also, in the service manual it says to be sure the drain holes on the resonator are oriented downward, but there are none in these so I suppose I will have to make a couple small holes at the rear (I did this on my 57 as well) These minor tweaks can wait until later though because I am out of time and Friday morning I am off to South Bend!!

Overall I am very happy with the fit and quality of this exhaust and can provide pictures in the near future if anyone cares to see it installed.

[trp3141592]

Hi,

I am very pleased to hear that Kepich Exhaust was not only able, but willing, to assist its customers. I shall shortly be ordering a stainless steel exhaust system (NOT inexpensive) for the 37 Cord ("Lady"), and Kepich Exhaust (klasskollection on ebay) is the vendor I planned to use. It is reassuring to hear that Kepich does not run and hide if an issue arises.

I love the car forums--they let me listen to those whose cars are on the same highways as mine!

--Tom

[Glassesguy]

Hope to meet you in SB. I assume it's the Limited you're bringing.

[trp3141592]

Hi,

The "Roadmonster" and I will be stopping in to visit at the Nationals on Saturday in South Bend (5 miles down the road from me).

I hope to see you all there!

--Tom

[lancemb]

Hey folks, I wound up with an extra pair of these exhaust brackets (I over-committed to somebody trying to ensure I'd get a pair quickly). So, if your 58 does not have these and you want to add them (which I highly recommend after getting into this topic), let me know. I suppose I'll post on the Buy/Sell section too...

[JohnD1956]

I would like to see the pictures of how it is installed.

[buick man]

. . . . Just thought I would add this one to the visuals for future reference purposes. Note that this graphic shows some interesting things. The correct orientation for the mufflers to frame and the pipe run bend/orientations as well as the front fastener points. Note too the rubber fuel line as it runs just along the side of the spring housing as it comes up from the fuel tank. Another interesting point is in regarding how the rear resonators are oriented and exit at these angles however, is up for debate as depicted. I would think this would require the last end pipe pieces after the resonators to be at a 22 degree bend or slightly more and do not recall having that. Edited August 24, 2013 by buick man (see edit history)