Break in 264 nailhead

[Guest btate]

Did another compression test as of today 5/14/13. We got 100psi each cylinder for the driver side and 115psi for passenger side. Vacuum is still low ----such as about 12" and flutter. no manifold or carb leaks. no vacuum open. I will just now drive it and hope the rings will set and valves will seat up. the other day I belive why we had such erratic readings was because we poured thru the carb some transmission fluid. we ran it a good while thinking we had burned it all out, but i guess not. now 440 miles on new rebuilt

[55 SURVIVOR]

Bill; on another note does your vacum wiper motor need rebuilt? They dry out inside over the years and can function weak,I had mine redone by Ficken wiper(has a web site) am happy with the work and works good,although it is (old school),works slow on acceleration and even stops when going up A steep hill with my foot into the accelerator(but that is the way I like it)!! A few pics,the vacum connects to the lower portion of the fuel pump,and on the left side of the wiper motor,notice the cable and the "small screw I was telling you about,make sure it slides ok and is adjusted properly.If you prefer An electric motor that is ok too!!!!! Mark M

[Guest btate]

Once I get some vacuum, I believe wipers will work. I took apart twice and seems real free. A little speed and they work but not at idle. Vacuum is just too low

[Aaron65]

Did you ever figure out the pushrod/lifter/rockerarm matchup deal? What do the plugs look like when you pull them out after running? Are they black?

[TexasJohn55]

Mark, no disrespect here but you should do search for" btate " threads on the forum. There are several threads and alot of ground has been plowed. I suspect Bill may be growing weary of our interrogation. TexasJohn

[Guest btate]

just going to drive it to Nashville tomorrow. Timing is now set on 10 advanced and vacuum swings from 10 to 14 at 650 rpm's.

[Guest 54fins]

Interesting thread. Lots of excellent input so I will try not to confuse the issues. I would suspect the bottom end of the rebuild to be good. The valves on a nailhead are less forgiving than many engines. I have seen a lot of valves stick on nailheads. The advice I received that has worked is that the oil passage to the head is restricted. Your shop manual calls for 20 wt oil, that is all I use and have not had a problem since. It can simply get into the valves quicker. That may not solve your problem but may help with the break in. The lean running is rare, back in the day you ran rich because the engine ran better and gas was cheap. Lean also runs hot. I would suggest opening up the mixture screws on the carb. Unfortunately that will only help at low RPM, but as the RPM increases the vac issues tend to subside. Don't risk overheating the motor, everything warps if you overheat.

[Guest btate]

I did a few miles on the 55' Buick this weekend by going to the Goodguys show in Nashville. A wild guess there may have been 3000 cars there. On Saturday I enter the the "Builders Choice" and there was about 60 cars in that category and were the best cars I had ever seen. Cars from Canada, Boston etc. I didn't win a thing but after seeing these cars I was hoping for 60th place. There was a 56' Buick right in front of me that was highly modified, and he was selected in the top ten. I would guess it was a $200,000. Or more Restore, I don't think anything was original. I don't think the dash was even original. Most winner were hot rods such as Prowlers etc. Low to the ground seemed to help. I think I was in the wrong part of the judging. My car is almost all original or at least compared to these cars. Anyway, I made it over Moneagle mountain on I 24 and got West about 40 miles. I noticed it got a little hot but not all the way to the top of gauge and after mountain climb it went back to almost normal. I needed to pull off an exit and when I came up to a traffic light, temp went to the top of gauge. I quickly pulled in behind a restaurant and since my radiator has a read out, I noticed the temp was 235 f ,while sitting at the light, the needle all of a sudden returned to normal and then suddenly went to hot. The fan was running and I assume it was the water t'stat. I called a mobile service and they installed it. I was also 2 gallons low on antifreeze. A quart low on oil. That seemed to do the trick and today we returned from the show and antifreeze was full but needed a quart of oil. I knew I had an oil leak but had so many other issues that I put it on the back burner. I had already fixed two oil leaks. The oil pan drain screw and the oil filter housing to the block. This one I think is coming from the rear main. I believe Willie said if it is a main it generally leaks on the passenger side, mine leaks on the driver side but I see it runs across the bell housing to the driver side. Tomorrow, I am going to purchase a kit with color and a gum to see if I can locate where the leak is coming from. The engine still has a stutter or hesitate accelerating but it may be the float in the carb. If I can borrow someone gauge to measure the Stromberg floats, I would appreciate. The last post said if I get the engine hot it will wrap. What do you consider hot? You also said I should use 20 wt oil. I am still in break in stage and I would be concerned until I get a a other 200 miles. I now have 760 miles on it since rebuild. The last time we timed it, it was set at 10 degrees ATDC. But the manifold vacuum was only 12 psi. This was the best we could get it set and vacuum needle not bouncing all over the gauge. It still flutter 5 or 6 psi. I also installed new plugs and set at .040 due to the MSD distributor. I will say the engine under speed seems a little smoother. I have notice upon fresh start the engine seems to have a lot of rattler or noise. I don't know if that is a valve or not. Three days ago, it was started and had a clicking noise for about 5 mins before it seem to disappear. If I have to throw this engine out, I will install an LS engine. Too many if's whether the right parts are sent when repairing this engine. Any thoughts are welcome. To be honest with you this is not a fun hobby having this many problems. If I was retired or was a full time mechanic that would be different. I really don't know what to do, now. What is considered "Hot" for one thing?

[Aaron65]

If it's not boiling over, it's not "hot," but I think that most people start to get concerned about 220* or so. I feel woozy over 205-210, but I've tried to remind myself over the years that I'm not really hurting anything at that temp. 235* is getting up there, but probably not warping things up there unless you continue to drive it that way over time. I'm sorry if I missed it, but have you gotten in contact with your engine builder? It seems like with oil leaks and temperature and vacuum and valve noise issues, the builder ought to be making this right. You likely paid some good money to have this thing done.

[Guest btate]

Engine builder said to get a 1000 miles on it and see what we have, so I now have 760 and will drive everyday until I get to that number , I then will call him again

[60FlatTop]

My parents dropped my brother and I with our cousins in the summer of 1959; five boys, all gearheads. That was my baptism. Another Aunt bought me the September 1959 issue of Rod & Custom, you know, the one with the yellow coupes on the cover. Well, I have been studying cars and working on them ever since. In 1980 I swapped a 350 Buick engine into a 1960 Ford pickup and really felt it was a professional job. You'll catch up. It just takes time.

Bernie

[Guest btate]

Thanks Bernie, it is just a matter of having enough time in a day or a week. Example: I was told after a few miles my brakes would seat and come to me. Well 760 miles, still no brakes. I have to plan my stops, it could never handle an emergency stop and I had it in two brake shops last week. How many shops will it take? Is there enough shops to figure it out? If I ever get the engine running right and oils leak stopped, I have no choice but to spend $1000. For front disc brake plus about a 12 to 14 hour labor bill.

[TexasJohn55]

" I'm sorry if I missed it, but have you gotten in contact with your engine builder? It seems like with oil leaks and temperature and vacuum and valve noise issues, the builder ought to be making this right. You likely paid some good money to have this thing done.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> " Bill, he is correct. Frankly I am now concerned that it won't make it to 1000 mile mark. You have stated that the pulsing manifold vacuum is worse and now the engine is rattling, Seriously, are you going to wait for it to "blow" before you demand the mechanic look at it? Sorry for being so blunt but I am really concerned. John

[avgwarhawk]

History of my 264. Rebuilt 2006. She has just over 7000 miles on the rebuild.

Last summer at a 4th of July parade she pegged the H the entire parade. 100 plus degrees. Never boiled over. Stock/standard fan to boot. I can not say the same for the big boys parading their 400hp plus motors with triple core radiators and up-teen fans pulling hard enough to suck a small child through the grill. These guys pulled off to the side to cool down. I digress. My 264 soldiered on for the entire parade. On days 90 plus when coming to a stop light the needle will edge toward the H. Air flow is minimal with the standard fan set up. She will drop to midway when driving again. Sometimes when I stop and shut down she will burp a bit out of the overflow tube. All cars do this except today's cars have a tank to catch it. WHat is hot in for a 264? If she is not boiling over she ain't running hot. Just my experience with my 264. As far as warping a motor, one has to really run the **** out of it while the radiator is dry or the t-stat just does not open. I did that once with my 78 Buick Regal. Idiot light never game on. The radiator boiled over. Burned #1 cylinder intake valve. New valve. Good to go.

Your tapping sounds like lifters taking some time to build oil pressure. Mine will tap on start up. Driver side cylinder bank. One lifter. She will get quiet in about 15 seconds. From then on she is a very quiet 264. I'm often asked if she is running when driving into or leaving a show/cruise in. Idling at 500 rpm it is not a wonder. The tap is typical of some hydraulic lifters. Some take some time to fill and work as designed. Bear in mind and as noted, the engine was rebuilt in 2006. Soon after the owner before me(he had the rebuild done) took the Buick back to investigate the tap. I have the work order and date it was taken in after the rebuild. Tap never resolved. Remains to this day. Does not affect performance in the least. She purrs like a kitten on a warm bosom after said offending lifter quiets after 15 seconds or so.

My 264 leaks oil at the main. If I keep the oil at the add mark on the dipstick she will not leak much if any at all. It would seem the extra qt of oil is overfill/overkill . Leaking oil is indicative of the 264/322 it would seem. I do not have a gusher so I do not worry about it. If you have a few drips I would not worry about it. I put a pan under it while in the garage. Job done.

It is not unusual for my 264 to eat a qt of oil after driving 200 miles. Again, low mileage rebuild.

Where am I going with this dissertation about my 264? Perhaps your problems are not really problems but inherent to the design. I do not expect anything remotely close from this Buick as I would from my modern day KIA Optima or Mercury Mountaineer. If I did I would consider the Buick a pile of worn parts and not worth polishing. I drive the Buick with two qts of oil and a gallon of antifreeze in the trunk. My daily vehicles I drive with a cup of coffee in the cup holder. And rightly so, these cars a the pinnacle of engineering.

My thoughts on your 264? Darn close to the same experiences if not dead on that I have with my 264. I see no real problems as compared to my 264. Likes pegging the H on hot days. Leaks oil. Finicky lifter. Sounds about right.

Edited May 20, 2013 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Guest 54fins]

The gages on a 54 are not famous for accuracy. I pull the tstat for summer and It does run cooler. At any speed, the radiator is more than adequate. They will peg out on H in a parade or slow crawl. I'm not sure what H translates to in temp, but never have boiled over. This summer I intend to play with some seals to keep the hot air from recirculating to the front of the radiator and an electric booster fan. The heat created a lot of vapor lock problems so I'm pretty big on hiding an electric fuel pump under the car. Now moving on to the engine issues, the crank vent dumps a lot of oil, I would not be too worried about loosing oil if your compression is good. Now rebuilds are a big issue, there are a lot of variables. Some of the issues can be that we are used to absolute smooth and quiet new cars. But you are seeing enough issues that you may as well go back to the shop and go through it with them. The high temp at slow speeds is definitely vintage buick. But I would not accept any leaks or low compression

[60FlatTop]

Maybe I was too subtle about the part where I have been at it for 53 years. And I have stuff I can't make work to my level of acceptance.

You really need to be self sufficient in this hobby. No matter what anyone tells you, making mistakes is not the ONLY way to learn. Someone in the medical field is spreading that one.

Most important in the car hobby, probably medical, too, is the development of maintenance skills. Can a person do the tasks required to maintain a daily driver in tip top condition both mechanically and cosmetically? Think back at the condition the last three cars you traded in. If there were deteriorated, why? When was the last tine you had the hood open on your daily driver and check the level of the power steering fluid?

It is really hard to bring a neglected and deteriorated car back to reliable and modest show condition. No components are superior, everything either wears out or ages at an equal rate.

Shops do not generally have the tools to work on old cars. It takes more than a pair of pliers and a screw driver to fix them. Tell a typical mechanic you think you have a problem with your power valve and they will think it is something you bought through an info-mercial.

It's a though spot when you have found out shops can't give you quality service and you don't have another 50 years to develop skills. Then its time to evaluate why you are motivated by the collector car. If it is to drive something that is a head turner its easy. A new Corvette is an amazing deal.

If the goal is to preserve Dynaflow technology, drive smooth and effortlessly on biased tires, well, it gets harder.

Sometimes I think about selling the cars and buying some nice watches. Once I was at Fall Hershey and asked a vendor if he remembered me. he said "With that Jaguar hat and the Rolex watch, of course I do." The watch is a Croton Cadillac salesman's perk. Maybe its not just old cars that get the thumbs up and attention.

Bernie

Edited May 20, 2013 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

Most important in the car hobby, probably medical, too, is the development of maintenance skills.

This is why in the medical field they call it, "Practicing medicine." I guess in the collector card field it should be called, "Practicing preservation." The learning, successes and failures is ongoing.

[Guest btate]

Thanks for the explanations. I wished someone had told me these things earlier. In the beginning I was going with an LS engine and I think I was influenced by the forum to rebuild the nailhead. Unless this engine gets more power, it should not be allowed on the interstate road system. I have low compression and very little manifold vacuum. Since I have about $20,000. more in the car than I could ever get out of it, I wish I could sell it at this stage. I really need disc brake on the front.

[avgwarhawk]

Thanks for the explanations. I wished someone had told me these things earlier. In the beginning I was going with an LS engine and I think I was influenced by the forum to rebuild the nailhead. Unless this engine gets more power, it should not be allowed on the interstate road system. I have low compression and very little manifold vacuum. Since I have about $20,000. more in the car than I could ever get out of it, I wish I could sell it at this stage. I really need disc brake on the front.

The engine should have 8:1 compression if I'm not mistaken. Not sure what type of compression numbers you're lookng for. My 264 cranks out a mind boggling 143 horses. She does 70 mph all day on the interstate. Is she a rocket? By no means. However, she is very capable on any road/interstate. As far as this forum, by and large, it has membership that likes to keep them original. Hence the reasoning to keep it as is. (There is a forum for guys who like to modify their Buicks) If you're talking LS, disc brakes(now), you're talking major modifications. I suspect quite pricey. Adding up the receipts for my Buck it is in the $30k range. This is a car with the original 264, no PS, PB and has a 3 speed manual. I would not change a thing. But, that is the type of car I wanted. I'm guessing you want the old car look with the modern car underpinnings. A lot of folks do. You are not alone.

[60FlatTop]

In the 1990's I ran a part time service for collector cars that was quite successful. I would not restore a car. I serviced only restored and well preserved original cars. My moto was to make them "Steer, Start, 'N Stop". Restored cars rarely did any of those things well and it was really noticeable when I knew I was the first one to make a repair on an original car.

I would tell the customers to ad up all their receipts and figure they were about 90% there. I dealt with a lot of cleaned and painted worn out parts. There were cobbled assemblies and incorrect aftermarket parts. Evidence of testing was nonexistent. Diagnostics seemed to be limited to glazed staring or misinformation passed on during coffee breaks.

$3,000 to $4,000 will get you straightened out. President Eisenhower started the Interstate system in 1955 and it was designed for travel at 100 MPH. Your car will do it and if you check old National Geographics you'll see cars like yours on interstate trips pulling airstream trailers.

My '60 is only 5 years newer and I think the speed alarm is set for 80 or 85 to stop from being a nuisance. When I was servicing the cars my daily driver was a stock '56 Olds that I drove like I stole.

Try again using you local Buick club or AACA chapter to find your mechanic. There should be one. Above all, stay away from people who tell you something will get better. Nurses talk like that, not mechanics.

Bernie

[Guest 54fins]

I can stop quite well with the original Buick drum brakes. I have found that a leaky wheel cylinder will lubricate the drum and make it impossible to stop. If you get any blue scoring on the drum, that is a very bad thing. I adjust mine to rub slightly, as they wear down and the brake pedal will gradually work it's way down. Now coming down a mountain they can heat up, but there is no reason they should not stop in normal driving. You definitely need to find your local BCA club and have them check it out. Old cars are simple, but different. As for the engine, I'm not sure what 8 to 1 is in PSI but they should all be fairly close. If one side is lower than the other, that points to the heads. If the head is not tight on one side, that throws up a flag. Do you get any white smoke? that's radiator fluid and a big problem. Otherwise, you can probably zoom in on the head with lower compression. Low compression also means low vacuum, it has to pull a vac to suck in air. I feel for you, I'm in Denver so a little too far to help you out. But I know you have a lot of nailhead guys in your area and in 30 minutes could probably nail down what is and ain't right on your car. This hobby can be trying, these cars do require some old time mechanics. I find it fun, but if you are not into the mechanics then you may find that old cars can be frustrating.

[Guest btate]

thanks Fins

[Guest btate]

I have been having a lot of water coming from my exhaust pipe for a good while and my mechanics says it is just condensate. It is really black water and when I touch it, appears to be soot. Mechanics say we have had a lot of rain and it is condensate. We have not had any rain for three days and today very low humidity. It is a puddle the size of a football. Any idea's from anyone?

[old-tank]

Bill

That's not that uncommon especially if it has been started several times without warming up to point of drying out. If you see along with this water a lot of vapor/steam from the tailpipe that hangs in the air even on a hot dry day, then you may have coolant getting in the exhaust. You had an unexplained low coolant situation (either it did not get filled or it leaked somewhere); check the oil to see if milky and inside the breather(s) for condensate...any of this mean the engine builder is going to get some exercise.

Willie

[60FlatTop]

You can put a radiator pressure tester on the car and pump it up to 18 PSIG or so. See if it holds. Try it cold and warm (not hot). That used to be one of my first tests when a car came in for the first time. One Caddy with a fresh rebuilt engine came and I could hear the water running into the left front cylinder because of a stripped head bolt.

Its so hard not to write something about those mechanics looking up at the rain with their mouths open, but I won't.

Bernie

Edited May 25, 2013 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Guest btate]

There is no steam or vapor. Water seems to be water and not greasy anti freeze. The oil is not milky. I can do the pressure test. Today upon first start up , I could see for just a moment a little blue smoke but mostly black smoke. After a minute all the smoke went away.

[TexasJohn55]

Water is actually one or the byproducts of combustion. It condenses on the surfaces of the cold exhaust piping and muffler.

[avgwarhawk]

As TXJohn and Willie stated. Quite normal. My 264 has black sooty water at the tailpipe. I can confirm Willies statement that not being able to run the engine long produces the black soot. I currently run the car quite a bit. The soot is all but gone. Depending on the humidityand what condensate has taken place the water is clean at the tailpipe. Gas is hydrocarbons mixed with air. As such, the by product of combustion is H2O.

[avgwarhawk]

There is no steam or vapor. Water seems to be water and not greasy anti freeze. The oil is not milky. I can do the pressure test. Today upon first start up , I could see for just a moment a little blue smoke but mostly black smoke. After a minute all the smoke went away.

Sounds like a very rich condition at start up. Choke probably needs fine tuning.

[Guest 54fins]

white smoke is radiator fluid, blue smoke is oil and black smoke is rich gas, like a choke is on. In the winter, if the car sits much you can get a lot of water, just condensation in the pipe. When you first start you will get some smoke, but they all need to go away in a few minutes as you warm up. Well we bounced around a lot of subject matter! Your engine is probably fine, but you do need a local nail-head to help you check it out. Now the brakes are a no compromise area. 1950's buick drum brakes are not bad and will stop quite well if they are set up right. However, if you have a power unit without good vacuum, they can be very hard to stop. It's a very simple system and there is absolutely no compromise on brakes- they either work right or you don't drive. If you feel at all you are planning your stops, something ain't right. The good news is the parts are cheap so there is no excuse for poor brakes. Do find your local BCA chapter and I'll bet you can get some very good help in identifying what are real concerns or just old school tweaks and tips. Good luck to you!

[Guest btate]

Thanks for the info. My brakes in the last three days seem to be much better. Now have 900 miles on the car. I think I will disable the linkage to the choke. The choke seems to be hanging closed. Seems the carb spring is too strong.

[TexasJohn55]

Bill, you can loosen the small screws and rotate it clockwise(toward lean) a couple notches, one notch may be enough. TJ55

Edited May 28, 2013 by TexasJohn55 (see edit history)

[Guest btate]

john, are you saying rotating it CW will keep it from hanging

[TexasJohn55]

Bill, the spring is inside the black housing, it is a temperature sensitive coil. If the choke butterfly is not sticking in the carburetor bore, with throttle held open a little off idle you should be able to move it freely from open to closed and back open. The cold spring coil is what closes the choke butterfly, as the coil warms it relieves the tension and allows the choke to gradually open. John

[TexasJohn55]

You can watch the effect if you hold throttle open and rotate the black housing back and forth, just mark where it was originally so you can reset it, plus one mark leaner. John

[60FlatTop]

When GM went to electric chokes in the 1970's they used a 3 minute and a 5 minute opening time on the bi-metal coils. It didn't make a lot of difference since the action was linear. That system used a electric resistance heater to warm the spring.

On your car there is a small vacuum port in the carburetor that draws air through a tube in the exhaust manifold that acts as a heat exchanger. The exhaust warmed air heats the bi-metal spring just like the electric heater.

For the choke to work properly the tubing needs to be connected and the vacuum port needs to be open. The heat riser restricts exhaust flow and diverts it through the intake manifold passages warming the manifold and base of the carburetor as well as warming that heat exchanger quicker.

If you start the car and let it idle for 3 to 5 minutes you should be able to give it just a bit of gentle throttle and set the choke open and the fast idle cam drop. Ta-Da, ready to go.

I haven't serviced any collector cars other than my own for about ten years when I made a guy with a '50 Super real happy. Maybe I should start doing it again. About 5000 bucks plus transportation from Chattanooga would put this case to rest in short order.

Bernie

[Guest btate]

Bernie, the tube is connected. Which vacuum tube needs to be open. Offer not bad

[60FlatTop]

There is no vacuum tube as such, just a fresh air suction to a small port inside the choke housing.

The tube is 1/4" or so and runs from the bakelite element on the carb to the exhaust manifold stove:

It takes a route similar to this famous '58 car:

I had a '56 Olds with a 4GC that I put an electric element on. I just replaced the exhaust heated element with a junkyard '74ish Chevy one and wired it to the primary side of the coil. No more stumbles. I used to tell people I could park the car across the street from a bank and rob it the next morning with a cold engine; still making my getaway. You know, it takes a special crowd to have a slack jawed look of awe at a statement like that. Or think it up for that matter.

Bernie

[60FlatTop]

Found it; See the route the heated air takes from the stove to the choke housing and then through the port to the manifold vacuum:

[TexasJohn55]

Bill, just like he said. You can disconnect the line and should feel vacuum at the fitting with engine running, that pulls heat across coil from the exhaust if it is still connected down there. TJ55