Dynaflow Side Business?

[Guest BJM]

My friend Mitch brought this subject up a couple months back.

I spotted a decent looking Dynaflow Rebuild Manual (1957-63) on ebay. Assuming I could get some very handy Dynaflow specific tools would this be a demand driven sideline business or is there no market?

I know Dynaflow rebuild kits are readily available from ads in the Bugle, Hemmings, Kanters etc. but actually having the transmissions rebuilt and externally reconditioned seems like there are fewer and fewer shops doing them.

My thinking is, do the 1st few for free to gain experience, then see if it could be a going concern. On the other hand, I think I understand that Dynaflows are pretty sturdy and seldom fully need rebuilds and / or that they are simple enough for most restorers to handle themselves witha decent rebuild kit.

Opinions, comments welcome please.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

BEEJAYEM, maybe I'm a mechanical coward but I found the Dynaflow section of my shop manual to be overwhelming. It doesn't help that it seems to have been translated from some non-terrestrial language. A more specialized, trade-oriented manual might be more helpful but I somehow doubt it. Anyway, I chickened out and took my transmission and overhaul kit (from Auto Tran) to a local tranny rebuilders, who's been in business since these shiftless wonders were common.

When unloading this lump from my station wagon, I was slightly concerned when a 40-something mechanic asked, "What the heck is that?!" A much younger Kid Wrench answered, "It's a Dynaflow, a '57 or '58, right?" I then felt okay about trusting this shop with the work.

Regarding your making this a hobby business, I think your location on the outskirts of [pretty puny] Des Moines and the cost of shipping hunks of Dynaflow even modest distances, will limit your clientele. Mind you, if you've got a reasonably well-equipped shop anyway - with lots of lineal yards of workbench for spreading out parts - your investment in the specialities of Dynaflow work could be small. Even if you end up just working on the gearlessboxes of your own and your buddies' Buicks, you'll be learning a dwindling skill that needs new practitioners. Go for it.

[lrlforfun]

OK Bryan: My friend's shop is completed and he's very close to doing his first job for me. I have given him six cores and we have chosen a mule. The mule needs to be prepared and we are doing very much like you are talking about. He will be doing several for me to get the lumps out and then after that he will decide what he wants to do.

The nice thing about the mule is that it will be a clean open vehicle. No trunk or floor pans, no doors, and no front clip. All the fasteners will be fresh and access to everything will be as easy as one could make it, reducing the remove and re-install time and making the physical job much easier. The mule will serve several purposes. First, to test rebuilt units sold on a pallet and second, to test used units taken out of a vehicle that the condition is unknown. My friend has informed me that when a defective transmission has a given defect identified it can often make the rebuild easier by identifying where the failure was as well as working with that given.

So far there is no deal with a legit shop in place as far as compliance and liability issues go. We are in the process of working on that and coming up with a system. It's going to be a while yet but my friend has really made great strides in achieving this setup. Mitch.

[Mark Shaw]

Jake,

When I had my 1912 tranny repaired at a local shop, I asked if he could do a Dynaflo... He said he used to do them, but never again!

I believe BCA members could use a Dynaflo Specialist. Even it you only offer to solve the leakage problems, you should have lots of work.

Just my $0.02

[Restorer32]

For comparison, we take our transmissinos to FATSCO in NJ. Not cheap, figure $2500 or so for a total rebuild but they do know their stuff.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

Mitch's home of Castro Valley is a suburb of San Francisco, so the potential customer base of Buick enthusiasts within a half-day's drive is much higher than in Des Moines (or Edmonton, by far). As a business with shop and office expenses, payroll, and licensing, Mitch's pal may have a fighting chance of success. One hopes he'll be encouraged to try, anyway. Sounds like his commitment through initial investment is pretty high but realistic.

The old standby that a "complete rebuild" will run $2500 (the stock number was $800 40 years ago) is the reason that so many people are scared to death of the first trace of slippage. Many good used cars continue to end up at the recyclers because their owners buy into this myth. The thing about automatic transmissions, Dynaflows in particular, is that slippage - or even alarming plumes of white smoke - can be caused by some pretty simple stuff. An external or pan-off adjustment will sometimes fix what was thought to be a car-killing catastrophe. More often, the aquatic hold-down device does need to be removed for inspection and repair. That does not mean, however, that every seal, bushing, pump, and clutch must be replaced, to restore the transmitting function. You may think you're being thorough but you could be pointlessly replacing perfectly serviceable original material.

To assume a "complete transmission rebuild" is inevitable is like entirely renovating your house, when all you really wanted and needed was a paint job. Sure, it happens (ask wifey), but don't blame the painter for the cost overrun. Ask your shop of choice blunt questions and talk to the guy who's going to be doing the work. Don't be afraid to get him to try something and slap the transmission back in your car for testing. That's where Mitch's friend's Dynaflow mounting mule would be terrifically valuable. Pulling the box out again for another repair attempt is daunting to us hobbyists but a clever mechanic with the right tools and a lift can get a Dynaflow out, tweaked, and back into a Buick before lunchtime. Yeah, that might be $400 but it's sure not $2500.

I knew an excellent automatic transmission mechanic who repaired two of mine, a Dodge Powerflite and an AMC Borg-Warner. He would only "fix what was broke" and charged accordingly. He'd trained in the 1970s with a national chain of rebuilders. As he worked his way up into management, he was disgusted by the customer intimidation strategies that were being drilled into the franchisees. "Keep a box of severely burned parts on hand. The customer will have no idea that they're not from his car." "Tell the customer that he's lucky to have brought the car in when he did or he'd have been paying two arms and two legs." "If it's a woman, adjust the bands and invoice for a complete rebuild."

My wrench-twisting acquaintance got off that gravy train and never did get rich but I do believe he slept well at night.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Rob McDonald (see edit history)

[Buicknutty]

BJM;

Worth trying, I'd say. That is if you if can keep your investment low, so if you don't make much, you're not cry'n blue over lost money. Best case, if you get the experience and reputation and do good work for a fair price, you might have a decent business. You won't know till you try.

As and aside, my '56 was leaking badly, and there's only one or two guys in this area that I have heard of that have experience with Dynaflows, and they only want to do a complete rebuild on mine. It was completely rebuilt about 20 years ago, and has only had about 40 thou on it since, so I think that it just needs seals and such, so I'm doing it myself.

Keith

[lrlforfun]

OK Buick People: I personally like what Rob has to say as far as only fixing what really needs fixing. The reality of the situation is this, today's modern shops want to do the repair from the ground up and the reason is simple. They are taking all the risk and they figure that if they do the complete repair from the ground up if there is a failure it's on them and are willing to only risk on that basis. I believe the majority of machine shops are like this too.

When my friend gets going his rebuilds will be on an exchange basis only. There will be a constant to each unit. The repair will be as thorough as he can make it, the details will not be overlooked, the price will be the same and the customer will get a properly reconditioned and road tested unit with a guarantee of some type. No it will not be cheap and hopefully it can become a reliable source where 48-63 Buick people can turn to.

There are still many details that need to be worked out with many aspects of this enterprise. Bottom line is.... my friend is an experienced transmission builder and a master mechanic. He likes doing this kind of work and I suggested to him that if he specializes in this one particular transmission he can get it really down to a science where he can make a nice profit. I have the cores and can lead him to the customers. I told him that if he's going to bust his back doing this work he may as well make good dough and give the folks something they desperately need. let's hope it will work! Mitch

[D Yaros]

When my friend gets going his rebuilds will be on an exchange basis only. There will be a constant to each unit. The repair will be as thorough as he can make it, the details will not be overlooked, the price will be the same and the customer will get a properly reconditioned and road tested unit with a guarantee of some type.

I do not see the "numbers matching" crowd falling all over themselves to utilize this proposed service?

[Mark Shaw]

Dave,

I can appreciate your comment, but I think the ""numbers matching" crowd may be dwindling. IMO, there are far more car enthusiasts who don't give a rip if the numbers match.

The earlier Buick engine and frame numbers didn't match; so when did the numbers start matching on transmissions?

[Guest BJM]

Dave

I think the numbers matching crowd would be fine. There aren't as many as you might think. Is the body/VIn even stamped on a Dynaflow? What would be the identification to call it "numbers matching?"

I have judged a little at BCA meets and have never run the numbers on a transmission, let alone an engine. Now, I am sure there are running changes to the Dynaflow. From start to end a lot of them, so getting the same vintage would have to occur. Performance, paint, appearance, these would suffice.

I think Mitch's friend has it right. On a lot of accounts. 1st, nobody wants to wait for their transmission to be rebuilt. 2nd, there are often lost parts the longer it's in the shop or shops go out of business or into more profitable stuff.

I started out my career as a mechanic in a transmission shop. I wasn't a builder, those guys were the tenured ones. I had to diagnose and do r&r (no fun).

But I observed, asked questions, etc. There is no way to rush this job. They meticulously disassembled and rebuilt but they did get faster at it with experience. They could rebuild 3-4 transmissions a day but we usually weren't taht busy and yes we had rebuilt ones always available for quicker service.

[Guest BJM]

As for the idea that some people only would want the leak fixed. There is an example above of the transmission doing well at 40,000 miles of service, but leaking. if one can reach the seals then I agree this would be a do it yourself job.

However, it's impractical as noted to just fix the problem if someone has gone through the trouble to take it out and send it off. If I pull one of my automatics, I am rebuilding it for long term piece of mind. As Kanter's says "Do it Once Do it Right."

The issue is that the cars these Dynaflows are going back into should never need rebuilt again unless you are a mega tourer and drives a lot.

[60FlatTop]

Bryan, People expect a cradle to grave guaranty on stuff they buy. If they remove it, ship it to you, reinstall it, and are unhappy are you ready to reimburse R&R, shipping both ways, and fixing it? Maybe paying a local mechanic to do it?

Even my engineering business has an account called "circus" to fund non-billable events. Don't forget the circus after the sale.

Remember "no good deed goes unpunished."

Bernie

[Buicknutty]

Actually, I'm the guy doing the DIY sealing, but if I sent it out to a shop, I would be inclined not to object to the mechanic going through the whole transmission, as there is so much trouble and expense to get the beastie out and to the shop, and too cheap out at that point seems a bit foolish.

Keith

[Guest Rob McDonald]

KEITH, I'm in that spot right now. I took my Dynaflow to the rebuilders on Friday and got a call today. Most of it looks good but it seems the shop who last worked on it - 40 years ago, almost to the day - "machined the drum" instead of replacing it. Frankly, I don't know really what the means but he said he could get a new one from FATSCO in a couple of days, for about $350. There's a couple of bushings he'd like to replace, too. I said, sure, go ahead. They'll have it all back together before the end of the week.

The estimate of $800 for just changing seals has probably crept up to about $1200. Still good value, I think and I'm confident that this will be the last time this lump is opened up in my lifetime.

[D Yaros]

Dave

I think the numbers matching crowd would be fine. There aren't as many as you might think. Is the body/VIn even stamped on a Dynaflow? What would be the identification to call it "numbers matching?"

I am not a Buick authority. I can tell you that the hydra-matics installed in Oldsmobiles are in fact numbered. The number appears on the GM Protect-O-Plate. I was merely trying to point out one factor to take into consideration. If it is not a problem/consideration, so much the better!

[Dwight Romberger]

Anyone concerned enough to want matching numbers or to have their own transmission rebuilt (the devil you know) will be willing to wait until it is done.

In my experience businesses succeed or fail not based on the skills of the tradesperson or the availability of clients. Businesses succeed based on business skill and adequate capitalization.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

In my experience businesses succeed or fail not based on the skills of the tradesperson or the availability of clients. Businesses succeed based on business skill and adequate capitalization.

DWIGHT, which why a friend of mine, who's a pro-profit education administrator, also runs a successful metal roofing business, and makes money managing a municipal swimming pool on contract. Like you say, it's not what you know but rather, who you know at your bank and what you know about business administration. If you're also a talented mechanic in a market that needs your Dynaflow service, all the better.

[Guest btate]

I used Jim Hughes of Perryville, Oh. He did a complete re build and only charged $850. Dynaflow's are the only transmission he will work on. He re built mine about 3 months ago.

[Buicknutty]

Rob;

Not to highjack the thread, but it sounds like you had the same problem I have now, the shaft going from the torque convertor into the pump is scored, and I'm looking for a replacement. It could be machined down, but I don't think that is the best practice.

So folks, any suggestions as to where I can get a replacement? Who are FATSCO?

Thanks.

Keith

[Guest Rob McDonald]

FATSCO is a vintage automatic transmission parts specialist in New Jersey - Welcome to Fatsco Transmission Parts Worldwide distributor of Transmission Parts. I bought my seals from Auto Tran (David Edwards, Autotran5@aol.com), another specialist near Boston. He provided good advice on what I'd need and shipped my order within two days. Both have excellent reputations on these Forums.

I'll be picking up - with help and bending my knees - my Dynaflow this afternoon.