1914 Dodge Brothers found in Germany

[Guest T3404eo]

I'm looking for any information on a 1914 Dodge Brothers car. This car was built in Jan. of 1915 and shows 241 miles. It runs and drives.

Any thoughts and tips most appreciated!

[Guest 1930]

Beautiful car, is it yours. Might help if you asked specific questions, general information can be found on-line so I am assuming you are looking for something specific

[R.White]

I'm salivating. Your enquiry is very welcome indeed but as Jason said we do need to know more. Please give us some background and raise your specific questions. This is the most tantalising post ever!

Ray.

[Pete K.]

Would love to see the engine! My tip of the week--Keep the gasoline fresh and change the oil on a regular basis. I use 30 or 40 weight non-detergent oil in my '25, depending on the season's temps.

[Guest T3404eo]

Thanks to all for the information. Yes, it's mine. I will have it shipped back to the states when I return home. I haven't driven it as the Germans are not as easy going when you don't have the proper plates, etc. I'm thinking I'll just leave it as is prior to shipping. I looked up the VIN and checked with the Dodge Brothers club library and it was built in Jan of 1915. My questions are too many to list, but maybe some highlights of this vehicle. I'm a car guy, but I've never driven a car so old and so early in the car world.

1. Where do I get parts?

2. Does it look like it's missing anything?

3. How does the transmission work? I'm aware it's a 3 speed, but not synchronized.

4. How do you start it? Do you know of any you tube videos showing the running and operating of it?

5. What goes wrong mostly and how do I prevent hurting it? It's a bit old.

I've added another picture.

Thanks.

[Pete K.]

Great car! 1;

Parts found at Myers Early Dodge Parts, Romar dodge parts, Hemmings motor news, (Google them).

2; Any side curtains? Tool kit? Hand crank?

3;H pattern, top left,-first. bottom left,-reverse. bottom right,- 2nd gear, top right,-high gear.

4; Check fluids, Battery start. I think the '15 Dodge had a negative ground. ALWAYS retard the hand spark lever when starting this car! Pull hand

choke, advance the hand throttle a bit, step on clutch pedal, step on starter button, When it starts, push hand choke in a bit

for smooth idle. Advance the spark lever. CHECK FOR OIL PRESSURE!, (3-4 lbs pressure).

5; Water pump packings may weep a bit, check for any vacuum leaks. Make sure there is proper fluids in rear end, transmission and

crankcase. You really NEED a reprint copy of the Dodge Brothers "Book OF Information" and the "Mechanic's Handbook", sold

through Myers or Romar. I'm only just touching upon some procedures here for you today, as I don't own a 1915. I have a very

modern '25!!! Good luck and keep us "posted"!!--A real beautiful car!

[R.White]

Shall we call you Theo? Can you tell us anything of the car's history? It would be interesting to know how much restoration work has been done and if there is any sort of paper trail; perhaps to indicate when the car was imported into Germany.

One thing; you say the odometer shows just 241 miles. It would be my guess that this is either where the clock has gone right round and started again or it has been set to show the mileage from when it was restored. It is highly unlikely that the car has not been used since it was new - but not impossible.(I have seen some new cars put away at the outbreak of war and the owner never return and the widow not want to part with them).

You ask what you should do so as not to harm the car and this is just the kind of respect which I am sure will reward you in return. To my mind, the best thing you can do is keep the car original and if possible share your good fortune with others. This car, to my mind, is a beautiful and rare example of an early Dodge Brothers touring and is like a time capsule.

You may find that (what look like) modern indicators will need to be changed in America as they appear to show red to the front which I think is illegal. The only thing which looks a little odd to me, is the location of the rear wheel within the wheel arch. This may be down to the cantilever springs having been re tempered at some time or possibly, a later, longer body fitted to the original chassis. As I am not a connoisseur of these very early cars, I probably shouldn't comment - it may be correct as it is!

One thing which I have noticed from the second picture is what looks like an electric horn mounted next to the steering wheel. What it is, I really don't know. I look forward to peeking under the hood sometime.

Ray.

[Guest 1930]

I would purchase an owners manual for the car first thing if you do not have one, are they avail as a re-print? I do not know but I can fairly easily help you with a copy if you are in need.

[Guest Bill Miller]

Hi T....,

Your car looks great and appears to have been nicely restored but not exactly correctly. It was in the past a typical practice to reset odometers to zero when a restoration was completed so I wouldn't set too much store by the low mileage reading. The upholstery looks new but I believe the original was button tufted so it is not correct (if that makes any difference to you, it wouldn't bother me, I just drive my cars for the enjoyment of it). There are mighty few true "1914" cars left and yours is properly called a "1915" and these are referred to by month of manufacture so you have a "January 1915" car if it has a serial number of 371 or a bit more, the factory having reached serial number 10,000 by May 30, 1915. Your wheelbase should be 110 inches. The top fabric looks new and originally I think was fabric but had a tan interior side with black fabric on the outside. Roger Hartley (the early 4-cylinder guru at the Dodge Brothers Club) can double-check me on this. By all means join the DBC!!! Your ignition should be an Eisemannn G-4 magneto (no distributor or coil) and the fuel delivery will be via an air pump pressure system driven by a small pump located on the passenger (right) side of the engine block toward the rear of the block near the magneto. There should be a hand pressure pump on the dash to the right of the steering column with which you need to hand pump to pressurize the gas tank before you start it. The ignition switch will be near the steering column above it and to the left and should say "Eisemann" into which a very simple key with 2 prongs will fit. You should have a conical section clutch lined with leather which needs to be lubricated with neatsfoot oil to keep it pliable. The clutch will still remain a bit jerky but that's ok. Before you start or do any driving with the car I would remove and clean all the plugs, drain the oil checking for water (or metal particles) in the sump and also drain the water or coolant and replace the fluids. Make sure the grease cups on the chassis are full of cup grease. Check the torque on the head bolts for 55-60 pounds. I would then inject a couple of teaspoons of oil into each cylinder and hand crank a few turns to lubricate the cylinder walls. Drain the gas and put in a few gallons of low octane petrol with as little ethanol as you can find. Hand pump the air pump 25-30 strokes to pressurize the system, set the key switch to "on" (magneto ungrounded), retard the spark and advance the throttle (both on the quadrant), pull out the choke on the dash, and hit the starter pedal on the floorboard. It should fire up. These things can flood easily so try to reduce the choke setting to lean it out and advance the spark and lower the throttle progressively as it warms up. Hope this helps.

Bill

[Guest toybox99615]

A find like this needs a lot of TLC. And before you jump in and wish you had not I suggest you find one of those older Germans in the area who actually knows about such basics of starting that engine. It would be easy to make a mistake and end up damaging a lot of internal engine parts.

Since you don't seem to be in a need to do anything I'd give consideration to waiting until the car is back in the States before trying to get it running. Among all the other issues is the simplest part is not going to be available and your frustration level will increase accordingly.

[Pete K.]

If you plan on buying this car or already have, I'd sure as Hell start it up and drive it to check things out. This car is made of IRON, not egg shells. You won't break anything.

[Guest brian j]

Hi. It was touched on in one of the posts, but in the original inquiry he would want to know. The Dodge Brothers Company started up in November of 1914, and began production of cars. There are no true 1914 cars, although it's been debated excessively. The cars from the beginning were sold as 1915 cars. You have there, whether it's been restored correctly or not, one of the earliest Dodge Brothers produced in the 2nd month of production in the 1st year. A rare car nontheless. The values of these vehicles somewhat lag values of the Ford Model T, and A,due to the popularity of the Fords, and the availability of parts,and reproduction pieces. But quality wise these cars were a better built, larger,and more powerful car compared to the Ford, and are steadily gaining in popularity and value. In the day they were extremely popular cars, had not the Dodge Brothers met with an untimely death due to illness in 1920, it is very likely they would have eventually outstripped Ford and could have possibly became the #1 producer of cars.(Also debated excessively). Although they were eventually bought up by Chrysler,and were still a high quality car, they would never again gain that momentum that the cars built by Horace,and his brother John, who had stellar reputations as car builders, and were no longer at the Helm of Dodge Brothers production. You have a great find there, and this forum is a good place to go, to get and education in Dodge Brothers stewardship. Regards

[Guest T3404eo]

Thanks again to all. Please call me Ed. Nice to meet all of you. I have paid and join this club and will now pay and join the DBC later today. I took some pictures of the engine compartment and other misc. areas for anyone's interest.

[Guest T3404eo]

Thanks Bill. Since adding the additional pictures I've been told that the carb is not original and someone added a "vacuum pump" Got any idea why someone would add these?

[Guest T3404eo]

Since adding additional pictures I've gotten some questions both privately and on this thread. I've also added some some additional information on the car and how I got it.

I've acquired the car here in Germany by offering to return it to the US vs. selling/scraping it here in Europe. My only interest in the car is to preserve it. The owner is unable to sell it here due to possible liability issues in Europe (long story) It's my understanding that the car was originally found in Hungary (Budapest) and brought here to Germany sometime in just the last few years. I have agreed never sell it or give it away, etc. and if I needed to get rid of it, it would only be by giving it to a true automotive museum (not some restaurant type place that would hang it on a wall) I have no interest in doing anything to it that isn't original unless required to register it, etc. Hence my questions to the questions below.

"The left rear wheel looks close to the fender?" True, but the car isn't home yet and I'm thinking it's the picture because I don't remember noticing that before.

"The carb looks to be a replacement" Could be. Does anyone have any idea why someone would replace the original with a non-original/oem unit? Can the original carb be had?

"The car should have a 6 blade fan" Oh...again, anyone have an idea why someone would replace the fan with something not original?

"It looks like a horn has been attached to the top of the left front door" Yes, but again I have no idea why. as one is also under the hood.

What's the hole thing on the glove box door?

Thanks again to all!

Ed

Edited October 21, 2012 by T3404eo (see edit history)

[Pete K.]

Thanks so very much for posting those great pictures Ed!! I'm not so sure that isn't the carb that belongs on that car since it is way different than the slightly later 1920's Dodge carburetor. I have not seen that before. If it works, use it until you find the original, if that really is the case. I've not seen that early style starter/generator before either! I believe the glove box "nacelle" is made for an accessory hand wind clock. I've seen them for sale on E-Bay It is my guess that the hand operated horn may be an add-on. I also believe the car is supposed to have a 6 blade fan like the one I have in my barn, for sale too! The previous owner had the fuel pump added on like many old car owners use, because they don't know, or don't trust the original vacuum tank system. They work FINE when restored! I seem to think the Stewart vacuum tank on your car is of a later date, but will work fine if gone through OK. The original was a bit narrower with a flared top. The only thing I would change sooner than later is to lose the black plastic conduit for the driver's side wiring and go back to the original metal flex conduit. It is easy to find. Keep us posted Ed, and thanks again,--- Pete.

[Guest Bill Miller]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for posting the additional photos, they tell me a lot. To answer your question about why anyone would replace original parts with incorrect replacements, if done recently I have no idea. A few weeks ago I saw a person on this forum who was altering a '54 Buick Skylark convertible rather than restoring it correctly. Go figure. In the past what we now collect as antique cars were just old vehicles used for transportation and the owners did whatever was cheap and efficient to keep them running, which was understandable at the time. It's sort of like fixing up a '75 Ford Pinto for which parts are no longer available and the car isn't worth the money and effort to spend to do it right. But your car looks like a fine purchase to me. You are correct that the vacuum tank fuel pump was added later, probably about the same time the original carb was replaced by a more recent one. The newer carb can be adjusted to a finer tune than the original but of course it's not "correct" and neither is the vacuum tank. The original pressurized air pump system has been removed from your car but you can see where the small pump was located down low on the block just to the rear of the magneto. There's a metal cover over the opening where it originally went. I've not seen any of these for sale and I don't know if they are still available but if you see one at a swap meet grab it. Many people replaced the original air pump with a vacuum tank system (which was by that time available) when the pump leather cup which produced the air pressure wore out or an internal part broke. I would just keep using the vacuum tank even though it's not original. To the uninitiated it looks fine and they work. The magneto is the correct Eisemann G-4. If you ever need it rebuilt try Steve Belanger at Mainely Magnetos in Maine (about $400). The wiring looks to be plastic so this should be replaced with new fabric-covered wiring for appearances sake (the fabric covered wire we use is readily available and is simply regular modern plastic covered wire with a fabric covering over it so it looks original but lasts longer and is safer). It's an easy fix you can do yourself and it will make your car look much more authentic. Don't use plastic crimp lugs for the wire, authentic lugs are available. The horn on the firewall looks right and should be a North East unit. The horn on the door is somebody's idea of a fun accessory or maybe they added it when the firewall horn quit working at some point or maybe they were smoking some loco weed from Amsterdam. I would remove it and refinish the door railing. The circular tube affair on the glove box door has been added by a previous owner and would be for a wind-up clock. I don't know about the 6-blade fan but my car's fan does have 6 blades and it's a late October 1915 car celebrating its 97th birthday probably next week ( ser. # 35258). Also, since you should have a leather-lined cone clutch, you should block your clutch pedal down with a piece of wood cut to size to fit between the pedal and the driver's seat support. The idea is to keep the clutch pedal depressed about halfway to relieve pressure on the leather lining so the leather won't stick to the flywheel half of the clutch assembly and won't press the neatsfoot oil out of the leather. The Rolls-Royce Silver Ghosts have the same type of clutch design and this works great for them too. Have fun with the car and I would be happy to give you any more specific advice if you need it up to limits of my expertise. There are many more guys out there who know a lot more than me, including many on this forum, so you're in the right place and your goals fit with most of the people here. Also, as I've said before, Roger "Dodger" Hartley is the early Dodge Brothers tech adviser for the Dodge Brothers Club so you should join the club first opportunity and let him know you have the car. I'm sure he can give you much more advice than I can.

Bill

Edited October 21, 2012 by Bill Miller (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

My expertise on something this early is only from what I have read but the original horn I believe actually would have been a Johns Manville model L-658 and was used from serail number 1 thru 9402 or approx May 1915.

Lucky to have that original model D starter generator.

I have attached a scan of an article written some years ago in the D.B club newsletter. These past issues are avail on C.D and I would strongly suggest the purchase.

Hope this helps

[Guest brian j]

You have to remember, a good majority of DB cars reside here. In Europe the supply of parts is probably scarce,and any part that needed replacement or refurbishment,would be a candidate for replacement by an "unknown make and model part". You would be surprised what will work, in a pinch. If you have nothing available to choose from. I've seen a carburetor made from a tin can with a hole in it. Regards.

[RAH]

Ed, Sorry to be so tardy with this response. You have a beutiful car and while there are several obvious inconsistencies from original I wouldn't worry about it unless you are intending to do an accurate restoration. Bring it back to the states and have fun with it. When you get here and have joined the Dodge Brothers Club drop me a email and I can go through the finite details. The Carb appears to be a Carter aftermarket replacement and the other items may have been replaced, as one mentioned, with whatever the previous owner could get hold of to keep it going. The original fan had a brass hub and I have seen several completely worn through. So that may explain why that was replaced. By the way, on very early cars (below 5000) that shift pattern is different from the later Dodge Brothers shift pattern. Sooo be careful on our first attempt. The low could be to the right and forward instead of to the left and forward. I have had my '15 for nearly half it's life purchased in the 60s and can help with identifying correct parts and details. That projection on the glove box lid appears to be for a car clock. One of the most common errors in early Dodges is having too light lube in the tranny and rear end. The design of that tranny is such that when in high gear the countershaft is physically disconnected so the lube must have sufficient consistency to cause motion or downshifting will be nearly impossible. The correct lube would be nearly 1200 wt track lube available today.

The original design on the fuel system employed a pressurized system with a hand pump on the dash and as was previously mentioned a brass pump bolted to a boss

and operated by the #4 exhaust cam. This system was a pain to maintain and was discontinued early on around late Oct '15 around 38,000 so the Stewart vaccuum system would have been a logical transition. Anyway Enjoy. ----Rodger "Dodger"

[Guest T3404eo]

I took an extra look at the car today and it appears that the rear wheel(s) are in the correct location within the wheel arch. i cross-referenced it with several pictures online. Makes me feel a bit better.

[Guest 1930]

Just measure the W.B and compare side to side or with the specs if you want absalute certainty

[Ian_Greenlaw]

G'day Ed,

What a brilliant find. Just think...1915. Another car saved and being looked after. I've seen car that have had thousands of dollars work on them and then just sit in a yard and rot. Its nice to see an old one going to a caring home.

Keep us posted.

Ian

[dodge28]

There is a video on UTUBE about Dodge Brothers history, life and times. In 1914 they started manufacturing cars in their own factory. Every component was their own from start to finish. Employees were weighing pistons. The pistons appear to be cast iron. Every part was checked for quality control right up to paint. At what point in time this wholly owned and manufacture lasted I do not know. The video does not say. I would like to hear from readers who know. 

[nearchoclatetown]

I am not sure what you mean by your statement that " Every part was their own from the start." They bought many components, carbs, starters, wheels, rims, springs, horns, radiators, etc. etc. The bodies were made by Budd in Philadelphia. Until their death the only shareholders were John, Horace, and Fred Haynes.

[dodge28]

Every part was made in house. Take a look at the UTUBE video. The electrical components  were probably made by North/East electric. The video did not show who made the carburetor or what carburetor was used.,

[nearchoclatetown]

There's a ton of DB videos, which one are you referring to?

[dodge28]

I said in a post above the title is the "History Of The Dodge Brothers" It is a detailed history, there involvement with Ford, fall out and what follows.  

[nearchoclatetown]

Many of the videos use the words "History" and "Dodge Brothers" in the title. All I can say is the ones I watched are easily misunderstood or inaccurate. Fred Haynes job from mid 1914 on was to line up subcontractors. He was given stock in the company to make the third member for the corporation. He accepted quotes for items they used from the beginning, speedometers, carbs, wheels, springs, magnetos,  etc. If you want to read about this I just donated about a 3 inch thick notebook of his daily notes in his handwriting discussing these quotes from mid '14 to some time in 1916. The notebook is in the AACA library with all of the DBC literature. NO way could have they made all the parts themselves. If you look at a Book of Information, the owner's manual, most have lists of manuf. that were used such as Johns Manville, Detroit Lubricator, etc. MANY of the parts have the manufacturer's name right on the item. If you go to the DBC website there are 3600 scanned pictures from Budd Manuf. in Philadelphia that built the bodies.  They all had a stamped Budd label under the front seat. The brothers were absolutely amazing for what they accomplished in their short lives.