Starting a 23 4 cylinder need advice.

[DaveAspi]

I am not trying to START my 23 yet, but want to check the floor starter. My crank pin is broken, and the engine is not frozen.

I reassembled the foot starter (Leif, your pictures helped greatly, thanks) and checked the electrical.

Hooked up the 6 volt battery and have power to all lights, dash, the brake and horn.

What should I expect when I step on the starter?

1- turned the ignition on and the amps go to 12

2- step on the starter and it drops to 2

3- no other sounds, no movement

Whats my next move?

[Mark Shaw]

Dave,

Verify settings: Retard the spark, & verify the distributor is set to fire #1 cylinder (with both valves are closed) at 7 degrees (about 1") past TDC on the flywheel. Points should be set at 0.020" when fully open on the distributor cam lobes.

Turn on the gas, turn on the ignition switch and you should hear a buzzing sound. Pull the choke out full and crank the engine over (you may ahve to stomp on the starter pedal to make a good connection) and crank until you see or smell gas, or until the engine fires. If it continues to crank without starting and gas is running on the floor, close the choke about half way and keep trying until it starts...

Edited May 22, 2012 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Dave:

I would first remove the combination switch. Carefully marking the positions of the connections. Then clean the contacts of the multi-contact switch well.

In the start position you should should have a current drain and hear a faint

chattering sound. (Rattelsnake). That indicates the starter is in operational

mode. Once the engine starts it automaticly dissengages the starting circuit.

The switch on my 1925-25 is quite "finniky". I usually have to hunt around for a sweet spot to hear the rattel

Larry DiBarry

[DaveAspi]

Mark, I am not quite at THAT point yet, just want to see if the starter is in working order. I have heavily lubricated everything underneath and loaded the cylinders up with penetrating oil as you suggested, and will be putting the oil pan back on this weekend.

Larry, I think this is what I am looking for. At this point, with the battery hooked up and the ignition in the on position, I hear nothing when I push down on the starter pedal. What and where am I looking for the combination switch/multi-contact switch?

I am hoping for the "rattlesnake" or Buzzing" sound soon.

Thanks, Dave

[smithbrother]

WOW, sure must be a NEAT car, but you sure wouldn't want to use it as YOUR GET-TA-WAY CAR DURING A BANK ROBBERY, HUH............

Oh, for the GOOD OLE DAY'S...... maybe.

I can't wait to hear what it took to get that baby going.

I'm happy for you guys.

Dale Smith in Indy

[Leif Holmberg]

Dave,before you open the Ignition-Light switch on dash be sure it don`t work properly.If you open the "combination switch" be very carfylly becuse there are 2 springs and 2 balls that can fly away.If you open it ,made a drawing so you can see the finger contacts came in right possition again after removing them.

Be really sure you press the starter pedal almost to the floor.Try several times.

Leif in Sweden.

[DaveAspi]

I am assuming that the switch being referred to is the switch on the dash? Leif, you seem to have pictures of pretty everything on the 23 4 cylinders, would you happen to have pictures of the mentioned switches?

[Leif Holmberg]

Yes I have,but there seems to be 2 different types I have seen another type but only on cars in US,but I think they looks the same inside.

Leif in Sweden.

Here I found the other type of Switch on ebay.1923 1924 1925 1926 BUICK IGNITION SWITCH | eBay

Edited May 23, 2012 by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)

[Leif Holmberg]

Dave,I think you need help to see if the brush goes down on the armatures collector when you press the starter pedal.When you do that the generator brushes goes upp and the starter brushes go done on the collector.Remove the batteri cable and try without the batteri.But be sure the gears goes in to each´other,othervise you cant press the pedal in start possition.

Leif in Sweden.

[DaveAspi]

Thank you- off to the garage to give it a try- Leif great pictures again!

[Brian_Heil]

The classic starter 'clicking' of an early Buick and other early Delco Starter/Generator equipped cars when the ignition is turned on but starter not engaged is not there by 1923. What you should hear is a slight wurring as the starter rotates prior to the starter engaging. Take that inspection plate / brush access plate off the back end of the starter / generator and you should see the commutator spining slowly with the ignition on making the slight wurring noise(if your charging brushes, springs, connections are good, and commutator clean it should spin). The rotation is required so that when the starter pinion gear engages the flywheel gear and power is given to the starter motor at the same time, the teeth of the two gears find an open tooth so to speak as they slowly spin by. If it were not spinning, you have a good chance of the two teeth hitting each other with their side faces and not engaging as the power is supplied to the starter pinion.

Think of folding your hands and your fingers finding the gap between the other fingers as gear teeth. If the one is not moving slowly you could land with one set of fingers (gear teeth) right on top of the other hand and not engage, this is the reason for the slow rotation with ignition on and the resultant noise people hear. In earlier cars, there was an actual one way ratchet (over running clutch) that clicked like a socket ratchet head. By '23 they had gone to a loose ball, sprag type clutch system.

Why you need an over running clutch on one end is because when the engine fires and takes off, it overcomes the speed of the starter and spins it too fast but this is allowed by the clutch and you don't break your starter.

Now, there are two sets of brushes and two commutators in there. The small set of 3 brushes are the charging ones and they also in reverse make the commutator rotate slowly. The large two brushes and large commutator are for the high load starter. These brushes drop into contact (when adjusted properly) when the pinion is engaged and then the starter does its job.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

Also, my '23 6 cylinder, floods like a bear. When starting cold, full choke, and a high idle setting on the steering controls, crank a bit until it barks. Stop and take the choke all the way off and crank again and it starts every time. Warm/Hot no choke. Leave the choke on any longer than that or use the choke hot, and you can go have a sandwich as you wait for things to dry out. It won't start.

You might try starting fluid at first just to see if things want to 'fire' and leave the fuel off.

I've lived through having the timing all messed up and cranking too much and flooding the thing so bad it wouldn't have started even with everything in the right spot/setting.

You can use a modern timing light on these Buicks with a 12 V source for the light (I use the lawn tractor and pull it along side for the 12 V) check your timing while cranking with no fuel on yet. Worse part is getting to the timing mark and removing the floor boards to do so.

With modern fuels you can and should set the timing 14 degrees more advanced then per the book. That's another discussion. It will run with the timing way off due to the long stroke, get her to idle first then we can work on timing and running like a scalded cat.

[DaveAspi]

Success! Well sort of. I was able to clean the contacts on the ignition switch.

Brian- great bit of info from you, thanks. I pulled the plate and hooked up my power and flipped the ignition switch to on- nothing.

I sprayed just a wee bit of WD40 inside and it slowly started to turn.

Sprayed a bit more and it started to turn a bit more.

One last blast and the old starter was turning freely.

Now- when I push the starter pedal down- Nothing happens. I am not trying to start the Buick yet, just getting a grasp as to what needs to be done before I get there.

So, power all around

Ignition switch works

Starter spins freely with ignition on

When the starter pedal is pushed in- nothing happens- no sounds, no movement

Whats my next move?

[Leif Holmberg]

Dave,In that case the Generator brushes are okey,now you need to see that the 2 Starter brushes goes down on the biggest collector when you puch the pedal down.(the generator brushes will be open at that time).Now you need help to push the pedal down and you can see that the 2 brushes will give contact against the biggest collector.

Leif in Sweden.

[ROD W]

Dave

Make sure you have a good earth from the battery to the chassis/frame and use a heavier cable for six volt than you would for a twelve volt system as they carry a heavier load or there is a greater voltage drop if any resistance is encountered. Also get somebody else to push on the starter pedal while you look to see if the brushes are engaging properly,as Leif said.

Rod

[Guest cben09]

What is the battery voltage while doing all this???,,,Cheers,,Ben

[DaveAspi]

Update- going as far as my Sophomore year auto shop memory will take me.

I have grounded the 6 volt battery directly to the frame and have done the following:

Turned ignition switch on- starter generator spins freely.

Pushed the starter pedal to the floor and I get a slight spark on the contacts (see pictures) and then all electrical goes dead.

Take my foot off the starter pedal and electrical comes back on.

Now- I'm not trying to START the Buick, that is a long way off, just want to check my starter, to see if it indeed is working,

What next?

[Guest Darryl]

Just my 2 cents worth, you should have a positive ground and negative to the starter.

[smithbrother]

I like to run FLAT ground strap from battery to engine block. IMO

Dale in Indy

[Leif Holmberg]

Darryl save those 2 circuit diagram if you don`t have a 1923 Reference Book.

Dave you need to check the lower bruch too,remove the batteri cable and ask somone to push the pedal,but before that put e thin paper between the both bruches and the commutator then push the pedal down.If you can remove the paper without any "power" the bruch don`t press against the commutator.

You really need to know that the bruches will press hard on the commutator.

Leif in Sweden

[Leif Holmberg]

Dave,are you sure the engine is moving freely,if you don`t know put in the third gear and puch the car and check that the engine is moving.You can also use a big skrewdriver and bend on the fly wheel to see that it moves.

Leif in Sweden.

[Guest cben09]

Step #2 is missing here,,,

Put a voltmeter across the battery to verify what the voltage IS,,,,

A battery with little or no capacity,,would give you all these very symptoms,,

Start at the beginning and chase the voltage down,,,

Keep it simple,,,Cheers,,,Ben