MikeC5 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'm wondering what can be done to repair the tail light bezel (from a '25). It appears to be made from brass and as the poor photo shows, has some cracks on the outer ring. Has anyone had any luck repairing cracks like this? The way it fits over the glass and on the light housing there is very little room to reinforce it on the hidden side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 You can reinforce it with a sleeve made from a thin sheet of brass. Brass is avail in ultra thin sheets from your local hobby store ( at least they used to be ) I can show pics and better explanation if need be, I would just need to find a bezel that I have repaired already. The repair cannot be seen unless you were to remove the bezel and even then you have to look for it because the brass is not much more than paper thin. Let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texacola Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Mike, the best permenent repair is to have them brazed.Of course they would need replating. I had my headlight bezels done (they are really prone to cracks)and you can't even tell where they were repaired....from either side.Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Thanks guys. I do have some thin sheet brass squirreled away somewhere (.003 or .005", I think). I've soldered brass before; is brazing different? Is that how you did yours Jason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 As you know Mike the less heat the better so in my opinion soldering is the only way to go. Might just be because I have never had much luck with brazing though ( and am a terribly slow at soldering.Just in case and for you added info here is a snipet that covers the differences, its easier to just copy and paste and prob much clearer for you anyway...........Brazing is a metal-joining process whereby a filler metal is heated above melting point and distributed between two or more close-fitting parts by capillary action. The filler metal is brought slightly above its melting (liquidus) temperature while protected by a suitable atmosphere, usually a flux. It then flows over the base metal (known as wetting) and is then cooled to join the workpieces together. It is similar to soldering, except the temperatures used to melt the filler metal are above 450 °C (842 °F), or, as traditionally defined in the United States, above 800 °F (427 °C).Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texacola Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Mike ,soldering is esentially sticking the parts together...you wouldn't solder it if you were going to replate. Brazing is like welding where you are melting the parts together (with additional material..brazing rod). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hmm... sounds like I'll have to read up the two processes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Texacola may have had more experience than myself on this but let me just add that I used silver solder, the piece has to be first plated with copper before the chrome or else the chrome wont stick but this is usally part of the chroming process anyway. I have done several this way and they are as strong as I could want them to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machinist_Bill Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I hope your luck is better than mine Mike. The last time I tried to braze something that thin I watched it turn to ash. I had this stupid look on my face for the longest time. Like you, I have some headlight rings to repair but I will try it on some scrap rings first. Good luck to you! Show us some progress photos!Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I have had luck with LOW TEMP. silver solder and it does take well to plating and is really quite strong. I am in process of doing some headlamp rings. Also, you may consider annealing the ring so it will stop that dang cracking. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machinist_Bill Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 What temperature and for how long Al?Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texacola Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If your going to have them plated....let the plater do it....didn't add that much to the cost and they know what they are doing. I used Qual Krom (Robert Ore)in Erie,Pa. Your tail light bezel cracks are nothing like those that were in my headlight bezels (at least 8 in each).And like I said I can't even find the repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'll give Qual Krom a shout since I was planning to plate it. Maybe get the headlight bezels done at the same time. On the other hand, I do have an extra HL bezel that it beyond using but it might be good for practice (they are also brass?). I do have some silver solder that would be worth trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60ch Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 1930 gave correct information on the technical difference between soldering and brazing. A silver braze alloy with 45% silver,15% copper,16% zinc and 24% cadmium has the low temperature (1145 liquidus) that you want for this work. This is oxygen fuel torch work not a bernz-a-matic or a soldering iron. I do this kind of work for a living and teach this to others. You have picked the hardest type of repair because of the thinness of the rim and the critical torch control that will be required to be successful. Unless you have the right equipment and are really skilled in heat control you will most likely have big problems, Perhaps to the point that you will burn it or melt it to the point that it will be scrap. You will be learning a skill that is difficult to master and you will want to practice on thicker metal until you can learn to read the flux and understand heat distortion. Fixturing the material so that it does not distort is important with thin material but the fixturing will draw the heat from your work piece. The choice of material for fixturing is a big factor. There really is a lot to know with this stuff but you will really have accomplished something if you stick with it. I have always thought that restoring a car is a great opportunity to learn new skills. Especially if you can't afford to pay somebody to do the work. Good luck with your project and if you need any help with it feel free to get in touch with me. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) quote.............Unless you have the right equipment and are really skilled in heat control you will most likely have big problems...........a dremmel tool goes a long way to clean up the gobs of mess, (be sure to get plenty of wire as well, at least that was in my case ) Edited February 2, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Quote.........I do this kind of work for a living and teach this to others..........On along shot Terry do you have anything on-line, maybe you-tube?Have you ever sat down and written out step by step eliminating all of the in depth tech stuff and got right to the meat of the matter? I would like to do a better job the next time I do one, tough to really become skilled at this when the only instruction I have been able to find is in books (tough to find time to read anything in depth and then when I do I usually end up nodding off ) I have experienced alot of trial and error! ( mostly error but I have been succesfull ) BTW I did use a benzo-matic, you give me the idea that maybe my benz didnt provide or cant provide whats neccesary to really make a solid repair, is that right Terry. Seems strong to me but I havent tried twisting it or really punishing it. I do have a couple of sets of various size torches ( not junk but quality stuff ) but I could not control the heat enough. I can post pictures of what I do have at my disposal Terry, maybe you can tell me if I have what it takes ( equipment wise ) and we can go from their. Dont know if you have the time for this and either way thanks for the info you gave above, every little bit helps. Edited February 2, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I have a good quality "plumbers torch" that works well and has a soft flame. I also use a temp stick to help me know when I am getting close to the right temp and when to be applying the silver solder. I do not think this is a terribly hard skill to master but you should practice before you get on something that matters. Yes, if your plater can anneal, they should do it, if not you can do it with a bit of study.Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundog99 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Is the bezel broken or cracked ?The easiest way to repair or stabilise but not damage the finish, is to use a two part epoxy glue (slow drying). The bezel has a bead on the outer rim the glue and the threaded part of a very thin bolt will fit in there without interfering with the glass. preparation is all, degrease and rough sand paper the small area 3/4 " that is to be glued, a bit of putty each did of the repair will stop the glue running and tape the show side of the bead. Lay the bezel flat, bolt stem in first ,cover with glue and leave in a warm place --job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
platt-deutsch Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Silver Solder with 45% Silver melts and flows easily with a Bernz propane torch using MAPP gas. No Oxygen requred. Not as hot as Acetylene but perfect for this job. You must also use special Silver Solder Flux. Usually its a white liquid.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Good Ideas are shared here. Many ways to skin a cat...some easier than others. Epoxy may be OK if you desire to paint. Soldering with Low Temp Silver Solder is the best remedy for long life and plating. I mention a "Plumbers Torch". This type torch uses Acetylene for fuel and is ported to pull in air (no bottle oxygen). By so doing it offers you a nice clean, low temp ,soft flame, excellent for silver solder on thin cross section repairs like headlamp rings and tail lamp rings. My torch is small and light so you are not waving a club around trying to do delicate soldering. I will try to post a picture of my torch this evening.Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Yes I for one would like to see pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Backyardmechanic Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If your going to have them plated....let the plater do it....didn't add that much to the cost and they know what they are doing. I used Qual Krom (Robert Ore)in Erie,Pa. Your tail light bezel cracks are nothing like those that were in my headlight bezels (at least 8 in each).And like I said I can't even find the repairs.Bob Ore phone number 1-800-673-2472Fax number..... (814)899-8546 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 An interesting subject for sure. I would imagine the torch heat load will have something to do with the mass of what you're trying to get up to temperature. I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to heat this up sufficiently with a typical propane or mapp gas torch (but not a soldering iron). The headlight rings have quite a bit more mass though. I would also like to see what you guys have used successfully. I did do some silver soldering on 1/2 diameter S.S. tubing with an 0.040 (?) wall and had no issues using a plain old propane torch. I'm glad I have a bad ring to practice on though...Oh and thanks for Bob Ore's number BYM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Ok, I agree....we all have little ways and ideas for doing things. I always keep my eyes open to learn new ideas or master old ways that are new to me. I actually bought this "plumbers torch" to learn the skill of gas welding thin aluminum. Acetylene welding is the OLD SCHOOL way of fixing/building sheet aluminum bodies. In fact, that is the method used to build our US airplanes during WW2. I have an Aluminum bodied British car that I am going to work on, an Alvis. This torch also does very well with silver solder on thin material as it provides a soft and controllable flame. Anyway, please look at the pics., I hope the pictures are not to big to be a problem for opening. This torch is a Smith and is 10" long, easy on the hand and arm for delicate work. I bought my torch at Praxair but can probably be had on Amazon, Ebay or your local welding supply store.Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Mike, sorry for the delay and I have tried but I just cant get to a repaired bezels right now, I have another couple of weeks before I can get the house/garage organized to where I can even walk without dodging items to my left and right. I did a very nice job on one particular bezel and while I do have several torches in various sizes like the one alsfarms posted above I did not use them but instead used a benzomatic torch with silver solder and no special flux as suggested. I was probably mistaken in not doing so. I did use the mapp gas though, dont know if that makes much difference.Its these threads though that help us all learn a better way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 No rush Jason but when you can get to them, I'd be interested in a few pix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I will work on it this weekend and dig the prettiest one out no problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 I played around a bit with a headlight rim. It wasn't pretty. I had some 6 mil brass shim stock that I tried to solder to the inside surface over two cracks about an inch apart. I was using a propane torch which seemed to have plenty of BTUs to heat up the 2 layers. I may not have the right kind of flux because it would burn up faster before the area got up to what I thought was hot enough (solder melts readily when touch to the surface). However, it didn't want to wick under the shim. I then tried it without a shim and despite the awful appearance, it did hold together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 While on the subject of headlight rims, I noticed that the nice one I picked up on fleabay a few months ago is not identical to the two that (I think) are original to the 25. The odd one has a bevel on the aft side that is not present on the other two. Unfortunately, I had planned to use this one instead of the crappy one I'm practicing on. Is the beveled one for some other year DB? It certainly is the same OD and ID as the other two.. Maybe someone would want to trade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 That bezel you did looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hello Mikec5, What solder did you use? What flux did you use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 It was 'Silvabrite 100' and it only has 0.4% silver, 4% copper and 95% tin. I think it is what I used to sweat some potable water copper pipe a few years ago. I know I had some real silver solder but it was a small amount left over from a previous project and its location eludes me... The flux was 'NoKorode regular paste flux'. You are too kind Jason.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Hi Mike, I looked this A.M and cannot find a single repaired bezel. I at one time was selling items on e-bay and its possible that these repaired bezels went out with sold lights. I was able to find 3 lights and none of them were even in need of repair so that I what I think may have happened. As I mentioned in my first post after you had asked the initial question used a small strip of brass cut down to just fit inside of these bezels. I used this brass as more of a backer if you know what I mean. I did not attempt to get solder to melt or wick underneath the strip.Mike when I say you would not ever find a poorer solder than I take that as gospel. I don't know why, there is not much that I cannot do and do very well but I have never caught onto soldering. A few years ago when computers came out ( or at least when I got my first computer ) I went on-line to You-tube ect and watched videos and read as much as I could. It didn't seem to help. I think my soldering has been jinxed right from the beginning because I bought a soldering gun many years ago from one of the Snap-on dealers and I believe it was a trade in ( never told me that ) that was a malfunctioning device from the beginning and having figured that out after I left that shop to go to another and the new Snapperoo wouldnt do much about it just gave me a poor feeling in my stomach when it came to soldering.Anyway I attached this brass strip to the inside of the bezel, I attached it by soldering the ends only, all of my other work was done from the outside, I V eed out the cracks and splits and soldered them again from the front using the best care I could to make sure that both the backer, my solder and the bezel were made into one unit. When I was done I had what looked similar but not quite as clean as the pictures you yourself have shown above. Solder being so soft I was able to grind/sand down the gobs and continue filling as needed so that I had a relatively smooth surface. When I was done it looked great, you could not tell from the back unless you really looked and even then you only saw the less than paper thin strip and once filling and sanding the front looked like the bezel had a nice even coat of nickel ( almost ) on it.As I mentioned I used silver solder but what I did not mention is that it may have been the wrong solder, it was what I could find at radioshack, I looked this A.M and I see no make-up written on the plastic spool. I also don't remember getting a special flux. And I did it all with a Benzomatic torch. Terry has per e-mail once again offered to help me in any way he can so I will take him up on that when it comes time to learn a new skill.I will take him up on that because quite frankly I have been frustrated for YEARS at my inability to even do a neat job of soldering two wires together.Sorry that I cant be of more help Edited February 5, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 The plot thickens... I'll have to get some real silver solder and flux and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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