$@#&%!! Power Windows (& other options)

[Guest]

Probably the two worst are:<BR>On the new Grand Cherokee (and other cars, I suppose) when you start to drive down the driveway, all the doors automatically lock. Stop at the barn to get something, go to put it in the back and the @#$%!!! tailgate is locked! Have to go around to the nearest door to unlock and THAT'S locked! Take a deep breath, go to the driver's door, open it and hit the unlock button. Forget why you stopped at the barn in the first place, get in and go. <P>On the F-250, if I'm making a series of stops or just running up to the store, I NEGLECT to fasten my safety belt. An insistent little chime repeats every fifteen seconds, needling me into compliance. <P>I don't mind either electric locks or seat belts, but I like to think that I'm adult enough to decide when to use them. I understand the culture that gave birth to these nanny controls, that's why going for a drive in one of the old cars is, in a way, a throw-back to a simpler time.

[Tom Deering]

I agree with BillP. Those automatic locking doors are not only a nuisance,they are a hazard.<BR>Imagine yourself going off the road and into water with your electric windows and door locks holding you captive. You are in deep Bondo! I have other gripes about unwanted accessories included in my base car, but I realize that I'm a grouch living in an area where a rear window defroster is an absolute absurdity. How about heated seats and mirrors? Eventually California will have 20 million cars registered here that are equipped to handle a Buffalo, N.Y. winter. What we need are the dual sun visors and retractable window shades that are on a few new cars.<P> My all time automotive pet peeve isn't an accessory at all. It is mandatory equipment. These damnedable composite headlights have taken us back to 1939 lighting standards over the long run. They are not only grotesque appearing on many new vehicles, but they are expensive and do not age well. This B.S. about their greater lighting effectiveness and efficiency cannot be proven after they age. I defy anyone to quantify any greater lighting capability that my mid '90s GM and Ford products have over my mid '50s GM and Ford products with old fashioned glass sealed beams. Want to see something really dismal? Take a look at any 4 year old Neon with its nearlly opaque headlight lenses. Nobody in their right mind could claim greater light transmittance through those lenses.<P> There is a bright side to this issue though; a young person with foresight can start collecting new or good used examples of contemporary headlights. They will have a very large market for them when Pontiac Azteks are competing against the Ford Focus for an Annual Grand National Award. <P> Think about that one, Tom

[Guest]

Personally, I think the most useless item on my wife's car is the sunroof. We never use it and it takes 2" out of the headroom in the car.<P>Why do we have such a useless and high priced accessory? When we got the car, it came equipped that way from the used car factory. ~ hvs

[Bill Stoneberg]

Thats a sad state of affairs if a Aztec is competing against a Focus.<P><span style="font-weight: bold">I cant live without Cruise Control</span>. Not only does it save the foot and leg on long drives but it saves the wallet too. <P>Other than that, CD players are nice, A/C is a must down here (I even have it on my '47) and big engines are a must. I can pretty much live without any of the others.<p>[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Bill Stoneberg ]

[Guest]

Whatever happened to some of the truly useful accessories - curb feelers, bug deflectors, canvas water bag to hang on the front of your car, sunvisor, woven seat covers (plaid, of course), and the vacuum device that indicated fuel efficiency. <P>Just to show how accessory/convenience loaded today's cars have become and how we expect these features - a couple of years ago I bought an '88 work car and the one feature that it totally lacked was cup holders of any kind. I couldn't hack this situation and immediately added some.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Turn signals should be made mandatory equipment. 90% of the cars on the road don't have them, I am assuming.<P>Regards, Peter J.

[ex98thdrill]

No offense Tom, but if you lived near Buffalo, New York (I'm about 90 miles away) you'd be glad to have those heated mirrors. To add to your comment about those pain in the butt power locks, that the issue of having the locks freeze and it makes it even worse. On one occassion I started my car to let it warm up. While the car was warming up, I was scraping the windows. What happened in my case, I unlocked the doors with the key, but the electric lock mechanism didn't unlock because it was frozen. Needless to say I got locked out of my car with the engine running. By the time I could break into my car (I was leaving work) the defroster had done its' job and didn't need to scrape the windows. I realize that in your region you probably never had that problem in your location, but on our side, we have our air conditioning that only gets used for six months out of the year. <BR>As much as I enjoy the old cars, the newer these vehicles get, the more comfortable they become to drive. I can't imagine driving across the country in a model 'T' back when the cars didn't ride as nice, and the highways weren't as good as they are now.<BR>As much as some of the newer bells and whistles on these cars are a pain, there are a lot of them that outweigh the bad.

[Guest BruceW]

There is one instance that I don't mind the power door locks on Di's Blazer. It IS nice to get in the driver seat, hit a switch on the door panel and unlock all the doors for the family.<P>However, I have been in the situation where I stop with the engine running.. go to hop out quick.. and forgot to unlock the door first! %$^%%$$#% <P>(I also once unlocked the door and got in, but after putting the keys in the ignition, realized that I had to get out for something. But AS I was getting out, I accidently hit the power LOCK button... just before the door closed on its own... but lets NOT talk about that <P>The biggest thing I dont like is how the alarm works the locks. When Di hits the button to unset the alarm and unlock the truck, all of the doors unlock. I don't particularly care for this since she often drives alone at night. I don't like the idea of an unwanted visitor slipping in another of the unlocked doors. <P>And whats with the right side mirrors and the statement "All objects are closer than they appear"?? To me it seems the opposite. I'll pass a car, look in the right mirror and think the car is still too close to pull back over. Then I look over my shoulder and the car is actually 3 or 4 car lengths farther back than it appeared in the mirror. Am I the only one with this perception? Or are the car companys trying to psych us into being more safe? <P>I just realized this is an unusual posting for me. It is not often I have the need to use the little red face mad gremlin! <p>[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: BruceW ]

[Guest Skyking]

I think if your going to have power windows in a car the buttons should be mounted on the door panels where they belong. My wife's LeBaron convertibles power window buttons are mounted on the front of the console in a group with the power top, and rear defogger. I'm forever putting the wrong window down or turning the power top on. I don't drive the car much to get used to a feel for them, because that's exactly what you need, a good feel. I'd like to meet the moron who came up with that brain storm.......

[Tom Deering]

The original condemnations of power door locks were aimed at the type that automtically lock when the vehicle attains a speed of 5 mph. We weren't criticising power locks that were actuated by the driver or front seat passenger. <P>ex98thdrill; I think we all recognize the safety, convenience, and comfort afforded by certain features in cars. No question about heated seats, mirrrors and back windows being welcome additions to a car used in upstate New York. I do object to having that blamed rear window defroster shoved down my throat in California, just because it's mandatory equipment in New York state. In the 4 1/2 years of owning this most recent car, the defroster was used once. That one time was in Flagstaff, Az. on a sub-freezing November morning. It's use was optional. The A/C turned on with the temp on high would have been adequate for clearing the back window.<P> One closing thought; if contemporary vehicles weren't so accomodating and easily operated by even the least skilled operator, would we have all the incompetent foolishness we see every day on our roads?<BR>I'll ponder that question tomorrow as we go phlying to Philly at phive A.M. <P> Tom

[Guest]

Ok I've got one, how about vanity mirrors. Aside from entertaining my young son who thinks he's driving and uses it for a rear view mirror I don't think it's ever been used.<P>How about the stuff the mfg's took away? Like those little side windows that you could crank out into the breeze-damn I miss those. <P>Or the humungous vents cars used to have, you pull the lever and a trap door opens opening God's own whirlwind of leaves and crap into the car-damn I miss those too. <P>How about the little turn signal lights on the front fenders so I don't drive down the road looking like an idiot when the damn "self cancelling" turn signals, don't-damn those were cool.<P>Remember when you could squirt the windshield with washer fluid without activating the wipers at the same time-what the hell was wrong with that?!<P>And why does my fuel filler cap have to be hidden under a door so that the gas attendant either leaves it open or forgets the cap and then closes the door and then I have to go back to every gas station I've ever been too hoping the little prick didn't throw it away. <P>And what was wrong with the gas cap on the back of the car so that I didn't have to guess which side the damn little door was on that I can't see through my funhouse mirrors on the passenger side-it should say "objects are impossible to see through this stupid mirror".<P>One more rant before I go, why the hell can't they standardize where reverse is on standard shift cars-right and down is the most logical position damn it!<P>That's it, I'm going hunting for corporate bean counters tommorow.

[Dave@Moon]

I just lost my daily driver for the next <B>week</B> because the d%$# power window in the driver's door broke in the down position and couldn't be rigged to stay up. Of course it's still under factory warrantee, but that isn't going to make walking to the grocery store (& back!) any more fun. <P>I'd fix the d$%#@ thing myself but most of the wait is for the (relatively new issue) part to arrive. <P>I <I>loathe</I> power windows. If this car had hand cranks, I'd <I>at least</I> have noticed that the window was getting stiff and I may have been able to salvage the situation with grease or something. Power seats and power antennae don't do anything for me, either.<P>This brings up a point for general discussion. What options/accessories do you have (or have had) in your car that you could do without? What ones can't you live without? <P>In other words, what is the profile of the typical/ideal car for the person who's as knowledgeable about cars as the typical car hobbiest? <P>Anyone with a chauffeur or chauffuse please refrain from posting.

[Guest Skyking]

Chuck, your good..........All those little things that you mention are gone because American people LIKE CHANGE....Why, I don't know....but they like it!

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

I agree with the automatic locking doors, but my wife likes it. We recently replaced the 1999 Taurus with a 2002 Grand Prix. The Taurus had the automatic locking doors and I hated them! When we got the Grand Prix, it had them too, but they are programmable so you can fix it where they won't do it. Guess what? She likes them, so I left them like they were. Makes her more comfortable when she's alone. I won't argue with that.<P>The Grand Prix also has power seats. I hate that too. We both drive the car, and typically carpool together. With manual seats, it takes all of a split second to make the adjustment. On the power seats it takes several seconds and three different adjustments. Sounds like whining, maybe, but it is a pain in the butt twice a day when we swap seats. We usually drive my truck instead, not because of the seats, but because I want to keep the miles off the new car. <P>The 2002 Tauruses have adjustable foot pedals! Go figure.<P>As far as A/C and rear window defrost go, they come in very handy in humid climates whether winter or summer. The rear window defroster will de-fog the inside of the glass just as well as it defrosts the outside. Most A/C compressors kick on when you turn the defroster on. This will help remove moisture from the inside of the car. Without the compressor, you merely recirculate hot moist air onto your windshield. Granted, if you heat air, it will absorb more moisture, BUT if you cool it until the moisture condenses out of it (and drips onto the ground below through the little tube under your car) THEN heat it up, it will absorb a LOT more moisture a LOT quicker. <P>Sorry for the dissertation. To put it in a nutshell, A/C is good to have even in the winter.

[Guest BruceW]

Hal,<P>I bet there are some summer days that you really miss A/C when driving the TS!

[Guest]

The most hated aspect of our Dodge Grand Caravan is the interior lights that stay on when you open a door. When you think you have all the doors shut, the light stays on for some programmed amount of time. If you have a door ajar(as frequently happens with young kids), you have a dead battery the next morning. Vent windows and large, effective vent openings at your feet are great features that were axed by the manufacturers so that they could force you to buy air conditioning.

[RoadsterRich]

Boy I've lived in Florida too long! I forgot about locks freezing, and window defrosters and all the joys of winter. And to think I was pondering retiring up north!<P>As to a feature I do like, the Grand Caravan turns the interior lights on when you pull on the door handle. There are times it is nice to be able to look in the car at night before you open the door. Of course on the other hand the neighborhood kids I suppose could play with the handle all night long and run the battery down.<P>As to electric car seats, some manufacturers have added 'memory' for two settings to expedite the drive sharing. Interestingly on this though there is still a lag for all the motors to 'adjust' the settings.<P>I have to agree that all of the 'switches' on the center console drive me nuts when I am driving my folks Saturn. I always put the wrong window down or up, or have to look completely away from the driving in order to see what switch I am actually pushing or pulling on. For that matter I hate the push/pull window switches, what ever happened to forward for up, back for down on the door handles where it belongs!<P>Living in Florida the AC is essential, even when it is 'cold' weather down here with a humidity level that is typically 70% or higher, the AC is a life saver at clearing those windows. You can run heat all day long when its 95% humidity and still have fogged windows, or so it feels.<P>I carry a spare car key in my wallet, funny thing is, ever since I started doing that I've never needed it... go figure.<P>And perhaps the most annoying thing of all to me is all of the $** electronics under the hood. Do I really need 2 or 3 computers controlling and monitoring my car? And for all of that sophistication, why is it that my oil pressure and fuel gauges can't read correctly even though the sensors are working just fine? And you can't replace a gauge, you have to replace a Dash! Something just seems wrong with this sort of 'progress'. In my thinking we ought to be making things easier to work on, not more difficult, it certainly seems at times there is collusion in the automobile industry.<P>Rich

[ply33]

With all this complaining I am amazed that no one has yet brought up the headlight high/low beam switch. Why did they move it from the foot switch to the over crowded steering column? Happened about 20 or 25 years ago and nobody has complained too much. I bet the kids today don't even know it was once in a better location.

[Guest Skyking]

Speaking of that little lever sticking out from the left side of the steering wheel, I remember when it was used for turn signals only. Now you control the whole car from that lever. It's like a joy stick, without it you can't drive. They cramped every conceivable option in that thing...Nowadays when you climb in a new car you don't know where the headlight switch or wiper switch is. You sit there looking like a fool until they go on.......What's with cup holders today. My daughter bought a new mini-van and there are enough cup holders in this vehicle to outfit a football team. I'm almost sure if I put it up on a lift there would be one on the chassis somewhere for the mechanic to put his coffee in when changing the oil....One other thing that erks me is that damm little spare tire that took the place of a real one. There is nothing sillily looking than to see a full size car with one of those on it. Please, they couldn't fit a full size spare in some of these huge trunks......

[Guest]

A couple of thoughts. First, remember that an elephant is a flea designed by a government committee. And our government has a BIG hand in how our vehicles are to be built. <P>Like everything else in our modern society, obsolescence is the keyword of our marketing philosophy. Even laundry soap has to become "New and Improved" every few years no matter how good it is. It may be neither new or improved, but by god it has to have box that says it is. <P>This is not a new concept. Back in about 1956 MAD Magazine had a bit on just that subject. The phonyness of soap powder marketing. Zip, then New Zip, then All New Zip, then Improved Zip,, then Super Improved Zip, then Zip with Zap added. Well you know the rest of the story. The stuff inside was no doubt the same old Zip with a few different colored crystals added. <P>Skyking ~ One purpose I believe in making vehicles extremely complicated is so that in many if not most instances they <B>MUST</B> go back to the dealer for repair. That keeps all of the money in the manufacturer's family as the manufacturer makes the rules for their dealers and dealers only use factory parts. And you pay what they charge or you don't get fixed. Then there is the warranty thing, as it relates to repairs made by you the owner or a non factory authorized shop. <P>Also the cost of the computer equipment drives the small shops out as far as repair of newer cars is concerned. So they are left in the cold and end up getting the old junkers to repair, and frequently get stuck with them when the owners can't pay. A friend of mine had to close his shop for this reason. Then he rented out the building to a tire store for more than he netted as a mechanic, and with no risk or headaches. <P>Tod ~ A while back there was a humerous little document circulating here in Wyoming that purported to be from WYDOT. It stated that all cars with dimmer switches on the steering column would have to be retrofitted with floor dimmer switches within six months.<BR>The reason given was that there had been hundreds of accidents caused by blondes getting their left foot caught in the steering wheel while trying to dim the lights. <P>Dave ~ Are we on the same side of the aisle on this one? ~ hvs<p>[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[RoadsterRich]

Well I have a new grievance to add for a 10 year old car...<P>I have known for some time that if the car is running the remote control trunk release will not operate. Well recently I found out the little trunk release button conveniently located just below and to the left of the steering column, in the perfect location for a knee to hit it, does not have a safety interlock for if the engine is running or the car is in drive. It is far easier to bump the switch than it is to accidently press a button on the remote door locks. Of course perhaps the remote door lockout is in case an irate spouse has hold of the spare set of keys <P>Rich

[Guest]

hvs -<BR>I'd be interested to know if the feds had a hand in mandating the placement of cupholders everywhere in today's cars. It is beyond utilitarian. <P>Now about new and improved soap. Yeah, Mad magazine, quite fairly, poked lots of fun in 1956. In the mid 60s the FTC poked (I'm being nice here, this is a family DF) consumer products manufacturers with rules, rules, rules about using "new, improved", etc. The practice was truly out of control, especially by the outfit I worked for. To use these new, etc. terms, you have to provide documentation showing just how a product is new and improved, or face the fines and bad press. With true American ingenuity, smart manufacturers started programs of constant new and improved for major brands - every six months making minor changes that could be promoted. <p>[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: ted schneider ]

[Guest]

Ted ~ I believe it was the yuppie contingent that caused cupholder inundation. After that they began working on requiring mandatory cell phone use while driving, especially by soccer moms and other youthful female types. <P>Between the blonde joke and what I just said, N.O.W. will no doubt put a price on my head. However, I have my wife's support on these contentions, so she will hide me. ~ hvs<p>[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Dave@Moon]

Ted,<P>Be careful what you tell Howard. A belief that the government might have done something good in the last 40 years could be very dangerous for someone living in Wyoming! It's full of.....you know.......<I>"those people"!</I> <P><BR>Howard,<P>As insidious as the government may have been in its involvement in car design, you have to admit that their efforts have probably result im more uniformity among the products on the market than anything. Complex to be sure, but boringly uniform.<P>As for who is most responsible for the indispensability of Mr. Good-ECM-port, you only need to think back. When was the first time you saw that great boon to automotive engineering, the Torx screw? What kind of car was it on? And how long was it before you found out you had to by a set of 15 of these d$#%* things just to do routine maintenance? I consider the Torx to be the father of all modern car maintenance marketing.<P>Call me crazy, but I think the manufacturers have a bigger stake in the exclusivity of their services then the government does. <P><BR>Finally,<P>I thought of another one. Which one of you guys is the misguided shlub who keeps telling all the manufacturers that we need larger plastic heads to the keys of each succeeding car? It's now very difficult to even get a flat headed replacement key made to get these things out of your jeans pockets. <P>You know how to spot a man who owns three cars today; he owns a purse!!!

[rocketraider]

Give me a tilt steering column, cruise control and a good FM radio and I can be quite content in a car. <P>Why hasn't anyone mentioned those damned locking wire wheel covers?!

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

I'll have to admit cruise control is a must. I will never buy another new vehicle with out it. <P>My '99 F-150 is pretty much bottom of the line. It has A/C, fabric interior, power steering and AM/FM/Cassette. Other than that, it is not much differrent from a fleet truck. I thought I could handle that, especially since the one I had before it had vinyl seats, rubber floor mats, NO A/C, and power NOTHING! <P>I was wrong. Finally, I could stand it no longer. I bought a do-it-yourself cruise control kit. Best $100 I ever spent. It took the better part of a weekend to install, but it was well worth it.

[Guest]

Among the most useless options had to be "power trunk pull down". (It was on my 86 Lincoln) You lowered the lid to the edge of body and then an actuator came up to latch onto the lid and close it for you.

[Guest]

@Moon -<BR>Big government doing something "good" by regulating is not what I pointed out. Many times these government interventions result in muddying the marketplace. <P>Read the previous post more closely. We realized that these advertising and promotion "rulings and directives" were an opportunity to systematically improve products to our advantage. Milestone product improvement breakthroughs went to the back burner in favor of small promotable improvements. Doesn't this sound similar to what has happened in the automotive industry? <P>As Ed Koch used to say, hey hvs "How am I doing?"

[Guest]

Ted ~ You're doing good. <P>Dave ~ I just re-read my prior post and I think it clearly places the blame for much of the stuff squarely on the manufacturer and his desire to create vertical integration in sales, parts and service. There is nothing wrong with that concept, in my mind, unless it deprives us of the freedom of choice regarding our property, the car.<P>The government's contribution lies mainly in mandating requirements on fuel economy and the like which has led to some really strange stuff. Of course it is the industry that created the strange stuff to meet the requirement and in many instances they could have done a better job.<P>Now as to the government. Our elected officials are much less interested in our well being than they are in getting on TV and in the news and pontificating as to how much they really are interested in our welfare and "feel our pain." Of cource the purpose of all of this is not our welfare, but theirs. Specifically re-election. <P>As for the bureaucrats who draw up the rules, they are answerable to nobody <P>My first encounter with the Torx screw was trying to change a headlight on a '77 Buick.<BR>It seems to me that there is probably a connection between the Torx head configuration and automated screw driving. The Phillips improved on the slot head and Torx probably stays on the bit better than either of the others. What I object to more than Torx is having half of the fasteners on the car metric and the rest inch fractions. Not only do you need two sets of wrenches but you have to bring both sets to the work area. <P>But again, these are just my opinions and I could be wrong. ~ hvs<P>PS: Dave, although I now live in Wyoming, I lived the first 58 years of my life [the formative years ] in The Peoples Republic of Maryland <p>[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Guest]

hey you chaps should be happy we still have the poney and trap here no air con cruise control (what is that) etc <P>try a week in afganistan and you will not whine about the problems like power windows etc you will be glad of a car !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

I would like to point out that in the People's Republic of Maryland we don't always reelect politicians, we put them in jail - Dems and Repubs alike. America, love it or leave it!

[Dave@Moon]

You know, to be honest I have to say that most manufactures have done a pretty fair job of updating their products in line with annual Federal mandates. All told after the "dark ages" of the late '70's and '80's, we've been left with some fairly servicable (usable, not neccessarily easily repaired) products. <P>Compare our industry since 1970 with what happened in the U.K., where jacking a sports car's suspension up 2 inches to meet bumper height requirements was not only considered acceptable, but was done to a top seller. Their industry either is essentially in total collapse or some other country's sideline brand by now. Or to the French and Italian cars that used to be reasonably competative here, and are now gone.<P>The mandatory existance of ECM's, EGR valves, Catalytic converters, et al has in large part allowed for much more efficient power conversion than would probably have otherwise occurred. You can today buy a 12-13 second, 3000 lb car with less than 300 cubic inch displacement. All the while smog alerts have virtually left the American scene. Growing up in Pittsburgh, I can remember numerous periods where for days outdoor activiies were curtailed. Young adults there now don't have any living memory of such things. And Donora, PA is just an exit on I-70.<P>My main thesis for this thread was the <I>uneccessary</I> complication of today's cars. I now find options/features foisted upon me that I not only don't want but I also have little regard for. Like the Subaru I had 10 years ago. This base model Loyalle had no options except A/C and cruise (civilized neccessities to be sure), yet came with power windows, poswer mirrors, power locks (manually operated only, OK by me) and a flashlight concealed in the (very large) head of the ignition key.<P>Whay does a Ford Windstar need (count 'em) 17 cupholders?<P>Why is ABS so commonly tied to optional sunroofs?<P>What possible good is a power <I>left</I> side mirror, and what is it doing on a $14K car?<P>Why would I need a power seat when I can still reach the latch and move my legs on any other seat?<P>Why does an 1800 lb car need power steering as standard?<P>Given all the other optional designs available today, who derives <I>any</I> benefit from a power radio antenna?<P>Tom and Ray Magliozzi's show last Saturday had a caller with a 4 year old Volvo S70, who's (coolant) heated seats had sprung a leak, wreaking havoc in the interior. Who thought <I>that</I> was a good idea? <P>Sometimes it seems the 1957 Mercury Turnpike Cruiser really was the car of the future!

[Guest]

Ted ~ I thought that as a native born Marylander, it was OK for me to poke fun at my native state. I meant to be humerous, not offensive. <P>Maybe I had better bail out of this subject. ~ hvs

[Guest]

hvs -<BR>The P.R.O.M. comment doesn't offend me, by any means. And, as you know, an amazing number of state officials have been jailed. A track record that compares with New Jersey and Louisiana. You may have been born/raised here, but you escaped and I'm still stuck in the Free State!

[Dave@Moon]

A state has at least attained a certain state of competancy when it can prosecute and put away it's corrupt officials. PA's record is nearly squeaky clean. <P>I wonder why???? <p>[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Guest]

@Moon -<BR>Consider that auto makers have to include something (read convenience features) to justify a $22,000 +/- list price for your basic family sedan.

[Guest]

I couldn't get my chute on, so here is another thought. Which is worse, being governed by a bunch of smart crooks or a group of basically honest dummies? I have lived under both. <P>When Dale Andreson, Baltimore County Executive, went to jail while I lived in Maryland, I said that if he chooses to run for that office again when he gets out I will vote for him regardless of party. Why? Because he was a damn good County Executive.<P>Perhaps politics is only attractive mostly to crooks and dummies; and honest, intelligent people don't want the job. <P>hvs, Cynic at Large

[Dave@Moon]

Howard, you ought to have worked for them like I did! <P>Only then.....

[Dave@Moon]

Actually, Ted, I think the real reason may be that without all the tacked on "features", the $22,000 car would probably still cost $21,300! My point is I'd seriously at times pay <I>not</I> to have to deal with these things!