New 1991 Buick Reatta

[Booreatta]

Got a call to day from a dealer in Texas that has a 1991Reatta coupe. The car has never been registered and has less than 1000 miles. It is a Maui blue car with blue interior. no sunroof and no 16 way seats. Everything on the car looks new.

Also he has a 1976 Buick LeSabre convertible. Red with white top, the mileage is 700 miles and again the car looks new and has never been registered

I have photos of the cars but that is about it, I dont have any pricing yet but will keep everyone posted

The cars are available at

Crawford Buick GMC

6800 Montana Ave

El Paso Texas

915-778-7781

Ask for Jim Davis

Good Luck

Chuck Kerls

booreatta@cox.net

316-655-1099

[Guest spiering.lucas]

Can you post the pictures you have of these beautiful vehicles?

[Booreatta]

Can you post the pictures you have of these beautiful vehicles?

I dont know how to post the photos on this forum but I would be happy to forward the email to you if you want send me your email

[NCReatta]

I can post them. Just send them to me in an email.

[Booreatta]

I can post them. Just send them to me in an email.

Marck I sent you the email for you to post, you might want to post them on Buick general also

Thanks

Chuck

[NCReatta]

Here's the Reatta::

Strange thing about the Reatta.. where the odo would be, it just reads error...

[NCReatta]

[NCReatta]

For those who may be interested, the '76 Lesebre Convertible with 718 miles:

[NCReatta]

[Guest Richard D]

It does seem to have a mannila envelope on the passenger seat that might have the portfolio in it. That's how mine came on my first 90 coupe bought new.

[Guest Recian]

too beutiful of a car fo me to ever drool over and touch much less own. I havent seen a reatta blue interior til now. Good to know it's not that obnoxious dark blue GM used in everything back in the 90s it's a silver-blue more like what you'd see in the old muscle cars

[NCReatta]

It does seem to have a mannila envelope on the passenger seat that might have the portfolio in it. That's how mine came on my first 90 coupe bought new.

I also noticed it didn't have floor mats, or the luggage strap. Maybe they're in a closet somewhere, but they don't seem to be in the car.

Those combined with the missing portfolio, and the "error" on the dash is, to me, a bit of a let down for such a nice car..

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

ERROR on odometer, HMMMMMMM..... Sounds like it was driven with one of the proms removed from the BCM.

[KDirk]

Daniel, you may have something there. I don't want to make accusations but I have discovered (as I assume Daniel has) that the BCM actually contains three PROMS. One holds the "program", then second holds the odometer, VIN and option programming parameters, and the third one (soldered in, not socketed) appears to be a redundant copy of the second EEPROM that holds the mileage and so forth. This third PROM is not visible with the small service cover removed from the BCM housing. The entire upper housing needs to be removed to see it.

This was apparently done to prevent tampering, or keeping the mileage from incrementing by removing the socketed EEPROM from the BCM. If this is done, when it is subsequently re-installed, it no longer "syncs" with the backup EEPROM, causing an error display since it assumes intentional tampering. The only way to fix this is to send the BCM in to have both PROMS re-synced I believe.

Now, again, I am not wanting to make an unfounded accusation on this particular car. This post is just informational and this seemed a good time to mention it, as I don't know how many people are aware of this aspect of the BCM design. I was not aware of it until recently when I tried to swap in a spare BCM on my 88 for troubleshooting purposes, and found that even putting the two correct socketed PROMS in the spare BCM, it still read ERROR on the odo, and had the wrong option content (CRT came up saying "Riviera by Buick").

EDIT: When I first replied to this, the picture showing the odometer didn't load. Now that I have seen it, I note the cluster is fully operational, but still shows ERROR in the odometer display. This is not an IPC failure, but rather a BCM problem. Irrespective of the nature of the malfunction, it is something any potential buyer should demand be corrected.

First, since this is essentially new dealer inventory, it would be sold and titled as a new car. Unless it is exempted from odometer reporting strictly on age alone, the odometer will have to be functional for it to be titled in most states I believe.

Second, even if it is exempt from odometer reported for titling/registration purposes, it still needs to be fixed.

Third, why a car in this condition in the original dealers inventory has a problem like this that has not been addressed (when the dealer has the service data and access to whatever is needed to fix it) has me a bit, eh, curious shall I say.

I'm not dinging the car, it clearly is an exceptional specimen. That said, anyone seriously considering the purchase of this car or any similar type of deal for what is essentially NOS, should rightly demand that the problem be resolved and that the true mileage be documented to prevent problems regarding provenance later on. This is the type of car that could see concourse judging, so nothing questionable should be permitted.

KDirk

Edited July 7, 2011 by KDirk (see edit history)

[olbuickman]

Chuck, Is the dealer saying that the red Le Sabre convertible is a 1976 ? the last year we made the Le Sabre convertible was 1975. I drove a maroon 1975 Le Sabre convertible as my company car and then after 3000 miles bought it as my personal car. The red one in the picture at the dealership shows a July 1975 build date. That was one of the last convertibles produced at the Fairfax, Ks assemby plant. Frank

[Booreatta]

Chuck, Is the dealer saying that the red Le Sabre convertible is a 1976 ? the last year we made the Le Sabre convertible was 1975. I drove a maroon 1975 Le Sabre convertible as my company car and then after 3000 miles bought it as my personal car. The red one in the picture at the dealership shows a July 1975 build date. That was one of the last convertibles produced at the Fairfax, Ks assemby plant. Frank

Hi Frank I talked to the dealer and told him about the 75-76 issue and he told me the person that did the ad didnt know the correct year but it is a 75. The mileage is correct on the LeSabre. The mileage on the blue Reatta is not showing on the ipc and the dealer said they were working to find out the problem. I have asked for the asking prices for both of the cars and have not gotten an answer yet. I was also told that there were some more cars but the person I was talking to thought they were Pontiacs. I will continue to get as much info as I can

Chuck Kerls

booreatta@cox.net

316-655-1099

[Guest Crawford Buick GMC]

Good morning everyone. I wanted to chime inregarding the comments on the Reatta. This vehicle has never been titled and has been garage kept since it was pulled from the lot. The Error on the dash is in no way "suspect", "nefarious" or otherwise. Its simply the result of the battery going dead, and sitting for almost 20 years.

There was a mention that we (the dealership) should have the means and equipment to fix it but havent done so. You are correct. Until now there has been no reason to address it - the cars werent for sale. They are now.

The Reatta is currently in the shop being serviced by our certified techs. Rest assured, this unit is the real deal. Mr. Crawford - the owner - put it away long ago, and it hasnt been driven since. The most action it has seen was pulling it into the the showroom for photos the other day. Please feel free to email me with any questions, concerns, or requests for closeups, etc.. jdavis@crawfordautoteam.com or 915-269-6900

All. I thank you for your interest, and comments. The other cars we will be listing can be found at the following locations:

1975 Buick LeSabre - 719 Original Miles

1991 Buick Reatta

2006 GTO - 3,641 Original Miles

1999 Buick Riviera

2008 Pontiac Solstice

[Guest Richard D]

I spoke to a salesman at Crawford Buick and I asked him what the approximte out the door cost would be for the Reatta, he told me $40,000. I then explained that even a never titled 91 convertible would get less than half that, he would talk over the price with the store owner. What do you folks think it is worth?

[KDirk]

Hard for me to peg a number. This is one of those "eye of the beholder" type things. The right buyer could come along and blow away any other offers by a mile. Or, there may be no takers at a price anywhere close to what the selling dealer is willing to take.

The Reatta (in a general sense) is in that awkward phase of life where it is too new to be viewed as really desirable by many serious collectors, and too old to matter to the un-initiated. It is much like mid-century modern architecture in that regard. There is an eccentric and vocal group of admirers who are bent on it's preservation, but that movement has not reached critical mass [yet] to make a lot of people appreciate the value of buildings in that style. Thus, they are undervalued and frequently demolished without much consideration.

So, that leaves a group of hard-core Reatta fans like those of us who frequent the forum here. By and large, I think most of us here are of modest means [though I speak for no one other than myself here], and will not be desirous of paying $40K for a car, as nice as it is. If I had $40k to drop, my house would be paid off tomorrow, but of course I don't so will keep making the mortgage payment plus some extra each month.

Without serious big-money collectors in the mix, a car like this is in a tough spot to sell. It is certainly worthy of a premium price. How many 20 year old cars that are virtually new can you buy as the first "officially titled" owner? Given that the Reatta has not yet achieved true collectible status, I think anything over original sticker price is exceedingly hard to get. But, there could be some obsessive person out there with the money and willingness to buy this car for more than it cost new. The question is, if such a buyer exists, will they find this car?

Of course, I foresee the usual caveats with a car like this one. Why buy it unless you are going to make it a museum piece? It seems an awful shame to make it a driver (even if only for special events) as it will never be "this new" again, after it gets road time and miles on it. Conversely, cars are meant to be driven, so it would be [almost] equally foolish to let it just sit and look pretty somewhere.

I couldn't buy a car like this, unless I just had untold money to burn. It would either have me constantly worried about damage if I took it out to drive, or would make me sick to think about it wasting away in storage. I'll stick to cars that I don't feel bad putting on the road, and keep them maintained as well and as long as I can.

KDirk

[Bushwack]

Marck sold his Reatta 'vert with 47,000 miles for significantly more then known market value suggests (what was it that P.T. Barnum said???). Nevertheless, his car sold (kudos!).

I think a distant relative of Barnum will eventually make him/herself known (as I have been known to have slight traces of Barnum DNA) and pick up that car as a trophy (just as the original owner did 21 years ago).

[Guest steveskyhawk]

I believe a buyer would emerge at 40k if this were a convertible

[NCReatta]

I would price it at about $17,000 if it were my car.. and that may be a bit high.

Just my opinion though.

[Guest blue72beetle]

Consider there's an equally nice 91 vert in New York, with slightly more miles, for 10k less.

[padgett]

Must admit the Riviera is what would tempt me even with the body in the trunk. Always thought it needed that mini spoiler in the back.

[wws944]

... It is much like mid-century modern architecture in that regard. There is an eccentric and vocal group of admirers who are bent on it's preservation...

Sigh. Another 'interest' of mine.

..., but that movement has not reached critical mass [yet] to make a lot of people appreciate the value of buildings in that style. Thus, they are undervalued and frequently demolished without much consideration.

Actually, many here do seek out nice examples of MCM. Unfortunately, a lot of the houses have had uninspired "upgrades" which have damaged a lot of their MCM character. A few of the cities, like Cupertino and, I think Palo Alto, have enacted special zoning for MCM tracts.

We reconstructed and added onto our 1950 MCM house a few years ago. When the demolition started, a couple of people stopped me in the street and I had to set them at ease that I wasn't going to do a complete tear down. (The 'little sister' to my house was torn down and replaced by a faux-Mediterranean mini-mansion a couple years before...) We wanted to make it 'even more MCM' than it already was! But I digress.

I probably should not express my opinion about spending $40k for any Reatta - considering what else you could buy for the same price.

[padgett]

You forget that there is a number of people in America to whom the price just is a number that really does not matter, it is just a question of want/don't want. Unfortunately, the Reatta has not reached the mass "want" level so selling is a matter of finding the right venue. Dupont and Hemmings come to mind but usually not an online forum like this.

Also keep in mind that there are enough Select 60s changing hands to feed the market as yet.

Now one of the rules of selling is that when you have something to be disposed of, tell everyone even if the likelihood is low so long as the cost is lower. Sometimes sales come from unlikely places.

If we really wanted to create demand/raise prices, the way to do it is to put mention of the Reatta everywhere and not just in nitches. It is a superb road car and a milestone. The key is to get it recognised as such. Of course one of the first steps is to get all of the class 4-5-6 examples off the road. Blem wit that is the drivetrain, with any care, is close to bulletproof.

What usually makes a "classic" is a few years of necessary unobtanium and we are not there yet.

[charlie1]

This dealer appears to have a brand new never titled 1999 Riviera on E Bay that just poped up today. Starting at $30K.

Can someone comment on a eeprom changing to error after the battery has been removed even for 20 years?

They must have stored a number of cars ?

[padgett]

I do not know what the shelf life was for a 1980's EEROM. They are supposed to be non-volatile but for how long ? That said GM had to have a way to replace BCMs and EEROMs in the field, it is just programming. Suspect the BCM error codes might give a hint.

[charlie1]

On my 89 Riviera in storage for about a year with battery out the Prom was fine when I put it back in. Did have a problem when wife had jump started and they screwed up. Had to send to a guy in Canada to have it reset correctly.

20 years could be a entirely different story.

Edited July 8, 2011 by CHAS1 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Foundling was in storage from about 2004, electronics seem OK.

[charlie1]

I have a 1999 Riviera in long term storage and have never had a problem except for the transmission and some other electronic items relearning driving habits when I took it out. Of course this is a much different generation. Think the eeprom is soldered into the back of the dash on my 1999 Riviera whereas on the 1989 it will pop right out.

[KDirk]

Well, removal of power from a PROM should have no effect, even for extended periods of time, say years or even decades. As Padgett pointed out, these are non-volitile memory devices. Most UV PROMS [EPROMS/EEPROMS/Flash PROMS etc.] have official specifications of 20+ years data retention. In reality, it is longer (likely much longer) than that.

PROMs are not affected by heat or vibration, but the UV erasable variety (used by GM all the way into the late 90's) can be damaged by exposure to sunlight if the protective sticker over the erase window is removed. Over voltage or poor logic grounds can adversely effect them, as any electronics.

Really, unless it is just a faulty/weak PROM chip that lost it's program (an exceedingly rare occurrence), the contents stored therein are not lost/damaged unless some external factor comes into play, like a power surge, or short circuit that hits the chip directly. An improper jump start or attachment of a charger could damage it.

PROMS are very reliable and solid devices not usually prone to malfunction from anything other than damage caused by abuse or mishandling.

KDirk

[charlie1]

Good morning everyone. I wanted to chime inregarding the comments on the Reatta. This vehicle has never been titled and has been garage kept since it was pulled from the lot. The Error on the dash is in no way "suspect", "nefarious" or otherwise. Its simply the result of the battery going dead, and sitting for almost 20 years.

There was a mention that we (the dealership) should have the means and equipment to fix it but havent done so. You are correct. Until now there has been no reason to address it - the cars werent for sale. They are now.

The Reatta is currently in the shop being serviced by our certified techs. Rest assured, this unit is the real deal. Mr. Crawford - the owner - put it away long ago, and it hasnt been driven since. The most action it has seen was pulling it into the the showroom for photos the other day. Please feel free to email me with any questions, concerns, or requests for closeups, etc.. jdavis@crawfordautoteam.com or 915-269-6900

All. I thank you for your interest, and comments. The other cars we will be listing can be found at the following locations:

1975 Buick LeSabre - 719 Original Miles

1991 Buick Reatta

2006 GTO - 3,641 Original Miles

1999 Buick Riviera

2008 Pontiac Solstice

Once the situation is resolved by one of their certified techinicans it would nice to find out what caused this problem. I would consider it another learning experience!

[padgett]

Just as a minor point Programmable Read Only Memory comes in several varieties and the UltraViolet erasable PROM is one of them e.g. the 27C256 used for the BCM program. It must be removed and exposed to UV light for a period of time and then can be rewritten once by a special device. It is then placed in the BCM where it acts as a Read Only Memory

However an Electrically Erasable Prom is another flavor that can be erased and rewritten on the fly and the 2816 that contains user settings, the odo, and the VIN is one of these. It is much smaller than the 256 (16k vs 256k) but is enough for the purpose. The prefix, 28, indicates EEPROM while a 27 is UV. Could explain the "C" but who cares ?

Unlike RAM, both can retain their memory with all power removed for an unlimited time.

[charlie1]

Many years ago when my mileage was changed due a bad jump start I tried to buy a Prom at the dealer they refered me to the local AC Delco service center. When I called them they advised me they could not help. I found a guy up in Canada called Prospeedo who was willing to help for something like $300 money order only. We FEDEX each way and I had my original mileage back on the car. I went into the CRT and double checked the VIN number that remain unchanged.

This is a interesting discussion and only hope that Crawford Buick GMC posts how they corrected the problem

[Guest Telco]

That is a nice car, but... as was said cars are meant to be driven. Unless it was stored perfectly all the rubber in the car will likely need to be replaced. I'm not jus talking tires either, I'm talking vacuum lines, body mounts, bushings, ect. The electronics would need to be repaired, but by a certified tech? Where are they going to find one of them? 22 years later, any certifications are going to be invalid especially when the manufacturer no longer officially supports a vehicle 7 years after that vehicle is no longer made in that iteration. I'd also wonder how they would support the 3 year 36K warranty that car came with? Say an interior piece broke, they would not be able to get a new one. After this long the plastic may be brittle, just like it is on the ones that have been in use. It would definitely take someone who HAD to have it to pay 40K for it. IMO it isn't worth any more than a nice example that's been in use especially with an odometer error.

The dealership might check with Buick Corporate, they may be interested in it as a museum piece as would any other museums. Maybe call some of the celebrities known for cars, like Jay Leno.

[reattadudes]

the only thing unusual about this car is that it came up for sale. I've personally seen 87 "new" Reattas, and estimate their numbers in the 300-400 range.

one dealer in the Cleveland area (now out of business) had thirteen in a climate controlled building he built just to house the cars. another dealer in very rural Kentucky has two black/flame red brand new 1991 convertibles covered and up on blocks in the service department.

Padgett is exactly right about money being a non-important item to a serious collector. I have a customer who has 10 Reatta convertibles, all with under 10,000 miles. about three years ago, he purchased a red 1991 convertible with a flame red interior and a white top. it had just "delivery miles" (four miles) on the odometer, and plastic still covered the interior and top, as it had come from the Craft Centre. he paid $82,000 for that car, and thought it was the bargain of a lifetime.

I had another customer in the Fresno (CA) area who bought a new (11 miles) 1990 black/garnet red convertible back in 2004 for over $60,000. he put the car on the road as a driver, and it now has about 45,000 miles. he is still just as happy with his purchase today as he was when he bought it.

and for those who think "low mileage cars have things that need to be replaced", I'm sorry to disappoint you. all he replaced were the original tires (truly a blessing in disguise; those Eagle GT+4s were really awful), and all of the fluids. he has not had a single problem with anything.

cars like this move from the category of an actual car to "art", but beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder, and increased values are to the benefit of everyone.

this maui blue 1991 coupe for sale in El Paso is worth every dime they are asking. for those who question this, I ask one simple question:

"not worth it"; compared to what?

do you know where a comparable 1991 Reatta is for sale?

to a collector who is looking at a really low (1,000 miles) mileage car, a "comparable" car with 10,000 miles might as well be 150,000 miles to them.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

[KDirk]

I suppose that the inability to grasp someone paying that much for such a Reatta is rooted in the fact that we simply don't see these deals getting made. They are done below the radar, so to speak. Since us "mere mortals" are not apprised of the occurrence of the type of transactions the Mike has posted about, we find it difficult to grasp that there are collectors who will pay those prices for a Reatta.

Sure, we see these types of deals made for better known collectibles on B-J and the like, but never has a Reatta rolled across their stage and gotten that kind of money (that I am aware of anyway). These types of cars (essentially new old stock) are held, bought and sold by an insiders club of sorts, that does not hang out here on the forum. Or, if they do, they keep such acquisitions to themselves. In any case, I don't roll in those circles, so I don't hear about someone dropping $(N)0,000 on a Reatta. That doesn't mean it never happens.

I guess my point is that such cars and their well funded purchasers exist, but most of us never see them as they keep an exceedingly low profile. That, of course, is their prerogative. If I had the money to buy cars like that, I wouldn't be bragging about it publicly either, as oftentimes it is not desirable to draw such attention.

I have no problem with the car that was the subject of this thread selling for $40,000, or more. If someone is willing to pay it, that is just the market doing what it is supposed to do. Supply and demand and all that. The demand just isn't coming from guys like me who are on an earthbound budget.

KDirk

[padgett]

OTOH they do look for "all the toys". CD is not that important IMNSHO but the 16ways are.

Properly stored doesn't mean "under a tarp", it means either all fluids drained and refreshed before storage or no miles (less than 100). I shudder to think of what 20 year old gasoline would be like regardless of storage (and to really empty a tank you need to drop it).

Most other fluids if fresh will store well but tires are not the only thing that does not age well - a good museum will have all cars on jackstands to keep weight off the suspension (and probably do not trust the tires). Grease dries out eventually & makes windows/roof vents slow. Paper speakers also may need replacing.

I'd figure a day with a checklist for any car coming out of more than a year storage before even starting - spin unitil oil pressure comes up and then let soak for a while. Then "break in miles" for a week or so then change oil and filter again and check for leaks. Would be pleasently surprised if the a/c worked or just needed topping off. Would check with gauge before turning on.

Brakes would get flushed, all cables lubed, and full checkout.

So not a matter of just jump in and drive. Proper care must be taken. Am going through this with the foundling now since as near as I can tell it has not been driven since 2004. Of course it had a few miles on it then so am checking everything out.

Agree with Mike about the GT+4s, Came on our 90 Bonne SE (when SE meant something) and lasted less than 20k miles. Terrible in the wet (and it does rain here occasionally).

Replaced with Michelin X-1s. Replaced again after a decade more for age than wear. Same with the Blue car and the TranSport. White has them but on first set. Same for Vixen except LTXs. Far superior tires. Do buy when on sale.

Don't think any club counts off for normal replacement items relating to safety though I'd loose some for the 16x7 wheels and 225x60x16 tires. But then the last time I had a car in a show it was a contest to see if anyone could spot all of the things that were rong.

[charlie1]

I am anxiously wating to hear how the EE Prom issue is corrected. Having lived with that mess it would be helpful.