Help - An Intermittent Problem That we Can't Figure OUt

[Guest richardgordon]

Hi All

Have two 2 Reattas. My '90 ragtop is having an issue that no one I talk to can seem to identify a fix for.

1- Battery Is fairly new - 6 months.

2- If i leave the car sit for three days or more - it needs a boost and starts right up.

3- THE KICKER- If I drive the car for a couple of minutes and go back to it, no problem However, if I drive the car for about 20 minutes or more and then leave it for 1/2 hour up to about 2 hours - it won't start again. When I turn the key I hear nothing - as if there was no battery in the car. If I leave it for a few hours or I boost it - it starts right up.

my mechanic can't figure it out -- no one I speak to can figure it out. Does it sound like a problem anyone has encountered.

Thanks

Richard

:eek:

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

What do your dash lights do when you try to start and hear nothing?

I'd start by cleaning and tightening the battery terminals and the common ground point behind the battery.

90 can have issues with the passkey sensor contacts, theft deterrent relay, starting switch and the solenoid in the starter.

How old is the starter and have you had it checked?

Depending on what the answer to the dash lights is I'd think the thermal connection could be mechanical issue in the starter assuming battery contacts are good and tight.

[padgett]

First thing I'd do is check the voltage at the battery when this happens, under 9 v something is wrong.. Second I'd check for a drain. Static with doors shut and everything off it should be less than 50 ma (blue car is under 20). 200ma will drain the battery in a few days. 2 amps, a few hours. Blower module shorted - over 10 amps and a few minutes.

I often leave my cars idle for a week in the front garage (ones in back have float chargers) and have gone for three weeks and started right up and with normal batteries (slowly converting everything to Optimas). 3800 is not hard to start if everything is good.

[NCReatta]

Sounds like the Passkey system to me..

[wws944]

The other thing to check is the battery connections - especially the POS side. Sometimes the bolt can bottom in the battery and feel tight, yet the terminals are still slightly loose. This can lead to an intermittent connection, and cause a number of problems. (Side of battery can melt slightly, allowing an acid leak into the cables. Which can then wick the acid up under the insulation and cause hidden damage. An intermittent battery connection can also lead to alternator failure due to 'load dumping'.)

[Guest Recian]

I havent seen this on my reatta but I have seen this on a nissan. it had a loose ground @ the tranny. it was held on by one strand of wire and corroded badly. I could bounce the car when trying to turn it on and it'd turn on/off as the few strands made contact. I'd try all your contacts. starter, alternator, fuse inputs and grounds

[Guest richardgordon]

Nothing on the dashboard at all - it is like there is no power what so ever. Not a sound, not a light.

We have cleaned and checked the battery connections. All are tight and in order.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Richard

What do your dash lights do when you try to start and hear nothing?

I'd start by cleaning and tightening the battery terminals and the common ground point behind the battery.

90 can have issues with the passkey sensor contacts, theft deterrent relay, starting switch and the solenoid in the starter.

How old is the starter and have you had it checked?

Depending on what the answer to the dash lights is I'd think the thermal connection could be mechanical issue in the starter assuming battery contacts are good and tight.

[Guest richardgordon]

Thanks for suggestions -

First thing I'd do is check the voltage at the battery when this happens, under 9 v something is wrong.. Second I'd check for a drain. Static with doors shut and everything off it should be less than 50 ma (blue car is under 20). 200ma will drain the battery in a few days. 2 amps, a few hours. Blower module shorted - over 10 amps and a few minutes.

I often leave my cars idle for a week in the front garage (ones in back have float chargers) and have gone for three weeks and started right up and with normal batteries (slowly converting everything to Optimas). 3800 is not hard to start if everything is good.

[Guest richardgordon]

Okay - so now I feel totally inept - Passkey system??

Know the old song -"Don't know much about History" ? Love my Reattas but don't know much about "carstory'

Thanks for the education.

Richard

Sounds like the Passkey system to me..

[Guest richardgordon]

Thanks so much for the suggestions.

Richard

The other thing to check is the battery connections - especially the POS side. Sometimes the bolt can bottom in the battery and feel tight, yet the terminals are still slightly loose. This can lead to an intermittent connection, and cause a number of problems. (Side of battery can melt slightly, allowing an acid leak into the cables. Which can then wick the acid up under the insulation and cause hidden damage. An intermittent battery connection can also lead to alternator failure due to 'load dumping'.)

[Guest richardgordon]

Thanks for suggestions - I know that the battery contacts are clean and tight but will check the rest

Thanks

Richard

I havent seen this on my reatta but I have seen this on a nissan. it had a loose ground @ the tranny. it was held on by one strand of wire and corroded badly. I could bounce the car when trying to turn it on and it'd turn on/off as the few strands made contact. I'd try all your contacts. starter, alternator, fuse inputs and grounds

[padgett]

What is the voltage at the battery when this happens ? "Aways starts with a boost" sounds like a battery issue.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Believe you can rule out the passkey system and theft deterrent relay for now.

What voltage does your battery read across the terminals and from the positive terminal to the engine block? If not 12 volts, pull the cables and measure across the battery contacts. If still not 12 volts suspect the battery or charging system

There is a ground post and a positive post on the inside fender wall behind and just to the rear of the battery in a black and a red plastic box.. What does the voltage read between them and between them and the battery terminals. Should all read the same as across the battery terminals which should be 12 volts.

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

bad started solenoid???

[KDirk]

This may sound stupid, but if none of the other more likely suggestions here proves correct, check the glove box lamp. It may be staying on full time due to a bad switch, thus draining the battery low enough to exhibit these symptoms. Driving it for a couple of hours puts enough charge back on it that it will restart again later, but short drives will not.

While this is not a large load in terms of current, it is enough to cause the kind of drain you appear to be experiencing. If you lack a voltage test lamp to check for parasitic drain, pull the bulb from the glove box lamp and see if that solves the problem. If so, it will be the normally closed plunger type switch on the glove box that is faulty (by not opening the circuit and turning off the lamp when the door is shut), not the bulb itself.

Needles to say, this is a hard one to spot, as you can't see if the lamp is on when the glove box is closed. I speak from firsthand experience; I had this happen on a car many years ago, kept draining the battery low enough to prevent starting after a couple of days or less.

KDirk

[Guest mongeonman]

I would try an other battery for a couple days...

[padgett]

Does no-one like to troubleshoot properly ? All you need for this is a under-ten-bucks HF multimeter (have a 25% off coupon code for today only).

If find an excessive drain (use the 10A scale because there will be a temporary high drain when you connect), just pull fuses untill it goes away and check that circuit (see section 8 in the FSM available online).

It bothers me when people take a shotgun approach but the parts houses love it.

[NCReatta]

Yeah, probably not he passkey system since there's no lights on the dash at all. If I remember correctly, your radio would still come on even if your passkey was messed up.

You might also take a look At the trunk light. Could have a similar issue as the glove bod scenario that KDirk mentioned.

[Barney Eaton]

Padgett, I was listening.

[Ronnie]

Does no-one like to troubleshoot properly ? All you need for this is a under-ten-bucks HF multimeter (have a 25% off coupon code for today only).

If find an excessive drain (use the 10A scale because there will be a temporary high drain when you connect), just pull fuses untill it goes away and check that circuit (see section 8 in the FSM available online).

It bothers me when people take a shotgun approach but the parts houses love it.

I share your frustration. For problems like this I always recommend starting with the basics and going through a step by step process of eliminating possibilities until the problem is found. I guess that is too slow for people wanting a quick fix.

[Guest mongeonman]

I once had a similar problem,i went to canadian tire to test the battery,they said it was fine,so i kept looking for something else,could not find anything wrong,then i decided to go to a specialized battery shop to get the battery tested , it had an intermitent problem,i decided to replace it and had no problem since.Always look for simple things first.....

[Guest Recian]

what doesnt make sense here is that #1 he says drives it a few mins then it's ok but let it sit for a few hours and it's stone dead. I know for a fact if a battery is so dead nothing comes on a jump will BARELY start it. most jumps take 250a and the battery is a 500-550. What doesnt make sense is that he says jump it and run for a few mins then in a few mins it's ok. if that battery was dead a few mins of running that alternator wont charge the battery all the way back up. it takes a good 15 mins to charge a battery back up with the factory fully functioning alternator in any car. #2 he didnt say what happens when u run it a few mins and leave it for hours or what happens if you run it for 20 mins then try to start it back up. (this would diagnose a bad battery) From the facts he's given it sounds like an intermittent loss of ground or power or possibly a dead cell in the battery. The proper way to diagnose it would be to check the battery. Make sure it has the volts (12.6~) and amperage (500+) If it has 10.8v then it's most likely got a bad cell cuz each cell is about 1.2v. If the amperage is low it can be chaged, if it doesnt hold a charge then replace it. If everything is good take off the negative and put an ammeter in series and watch the draw after the car is turned off and the modules go to sleep. If the draw is over 200mA then start pulling fuses til the draw goes down. make sure it's not a bcm fuse or something cuz it will naturally draw to remember certain functions like time and radio presets.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Recian (see edit history)

[KDirk]

I would add that Padgett has made a very good point, that I omitted for brevity and because I presumed (shame on me) that proper troubleshooting would be followed as a first step. It is easy to determine parasitic drain with relatively inexpensive and basic tools. Then, you can drill down further to find the root cause.

I offered my suggestion of the glove box lamp just because it is an uncommon problem that is not so easy to spot (unless you have checked for parasitic drain which is the first step that needs to be taken) and because I had it happen once resulting in symptoms similar to what the OP is describing.

Then again, without the needed tools and/or knowledge, shot-gunning is about the only thing one can do. This almost always wastes a lot of time and often money, which is the whole point of doing it right in the first place. While I share the frustration voiced by Padgett and Ronnie on this, I also realize that many people are not DIY mechanics by nature and lack even basic tools needed for this type of work.

While anyone working on a car should have these items, I will not refuse to offer suggestions/help within the sometimes limited capabilities of the person asking. Needless to say, it is helpful to both those asking questions and those of us trying to help out if those seeking assistance are at least nominally capable of working on a car in both available tools and knowledge. Regrettably, that is not always the case so I do what I can.

In regards to this thread specifically, the OP states his mechanic could not nail down the problem. If this mechanic actually performed systematic troubleshooting on the car and couldn't solve it then he either wasn't trying very hard, isn't following proper troubleshooting procedure or, the car has a very strange problem indeed. I am not in a position to make this determination with the limited information presented.

KDirk

[Guest richardgordon]

I have to thank everyone a great deal for all of the thoughts and ideas. All are helpful and give something to look at.

To try to fill in the gaps : after driving for 5 or 10 minutes the car will always start. After leaving the car sit for at least four or five hours and less than four days - it will always start. After driving for about a 1/2 hour to 1 hour and leaving the car for anytime between 10 minutes and apparently up to 2 hours - it will often be totally dead. No sounds, no lights, like no power in the car at all - As if the anti-theft system is totally blocking any way to start the car. Leave it for 2 1/2 - 3 hours or so and poof - it starts.

So very very strange - the battery was changed - mechanic cleaned all the terminals and leads : Every time he had the car and tried to reproduce the non - start situation it always started. So tougher to diagnose when it was working correctly.

As I said, so very very strange.

Thanks for all of you help - any other thoughts would be welcomed.

Richard

[Guest Recian]

what about the alternator? seems like the more u drive the dead-er it gets which would mean it isnt charging, and im still new to GM products but what about the fusible link on the fender by the battery. maybe intermittent break?