1989 Black won't start

[DAVES89]

As you may know last week I tried starting the car and it wouldn't start. I took the starter off and had it tested and reinstalled the starter. Starter no engages but won't start. I can "grind" the starter but will not kick. There seems to be sufficent fuel as there is good pressure at the valve.

However when I put my spark tester there was no spark. I did try the spark tester and the tester did work as I saw spark in the tester.

Here is what I noticed. The ground wire that comes up from the bottom of the battery cable to the bottom of the ICM has a "rub" mark where there is no insulation. [Right at the point where the A/C pulley is. [i have now moved the cable out of the way].

My question is this;

Can I just jumper from the bottom of the ICM to the negative battery post?

How do I test the coil pack/ICM?

Any other ideas?

BTW there are no codes. I believe the crank sensor throws a code, is that correct?

Thanks

[Ronnie]

As far as I know the ICM or the Crank position sensor will not set a code. I find it odd that the car was running before failed to crank and will not run now. First check to be sure all fuses are good.

If you have a fuel injector tester, check to see if the injectors are opening. The ECM will not send a signal (ground) for them to open if the crank position sensor is bad.

[DAVES89]

Ronnie, are you referring to the fuses under the hood?

So if the injectors are opening, would that then point me to the ICM/coil pack?

I was able to borrow my buddy's injector tester, so I can do that test.

My thoughts are to check the injectors first. If they are firing, my next thought is to swap out the Delco upgrade on the black Reatta with the known good one on the red Reatta.

If the injectors are not firing then that tells me that the Crank Position Sensor is bad.

Would that be correct?

[padgett]

I always perform triage first - introduce about a 1/2 oz of gas into the plenium. Crank. If it tries to run it is a fuel delivery problem and crank sensor is ok. If not you have an ignition problem. It is rarely both.

"However when I put my spark tester there was no spark. I did try the spark tester and the tester did work as I saw spark in the tester." I do not understand this, did you try on another car ?

Frankly I became so frustated with testing crank sensors and ICMs that I built a breakout box just to test the primary circuit for both Delco and Magnavox. Makes short work of identifying the problem.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, are you referring to the fuses under the hood?

So if the injectors are opening, would that then point me to the ICM/coil pack?

I was able to borrow my buddy's injector tester, so I can do that test.

My thoughts are to check the injectors first. If they are firing, my next thought is to swap out the Delco upgrade on the black Reatta with the known good one on the red Reatta.

If the injectors are not firing then that tells me that the Crank Position Sensor is bad.

Would that be correct?

Dave, the fuses are in the interior relay panel. FSM shows Fuse #8 for the Computer Controlled Ignition and Fuse #7 for injectors/fuel pump. Both are 15a fuses. They should be checked first before testing the injectors and ICM.

If none of the injectors are working the CPS is a likely suspect but the problem could also be caused by a bad ECM. The ECM will not open the injectors without getting a signal from the CPS. Before changing the CPS I would try the other ICM/coil pack since it is much easier to change.

If the injectors are working it would point you to the ICM/coil pack or associated wiring going to it, assuming you have no fire to the plug wires.

[DAVES89]

Padgett, I didn't do that sentance very well. I am driving the red Reatta as my summer driver. I had the red at the garage I store the now not running black Reatta. I tried the spark tester on the black, no spark. I then put the spark tester on the red Reatta and the spark tester worked great.

I have seen pictures of your break out box. Pretty impressive. You should make a plan o gram with parts needed for others to make, as well as instruction on how to test...

Ronnie, I will check the fuses as you suggest for the first step. I don't think the fuse #7 is bad because I can hear the fuel pump run. However it is a quick check to check both fuses.

My plan is as follows;

1] Check the injectors with the noid tester.

2] Run a dedicated ground wire from the battery to the base of the ICM.

3] Remove the wire harness from the ICM clean and reinstall.

4] If it still fails to start, remove the ICM/coil pack from the red Reatta and install in the black.

If it still won't start, I believe that it is then the CPS that has failed.

My mechanic friend is leaning towards the failure of the CPS as well. Even though the car ran when put away, and only now doesn't start after sitting.

BTW this car is stored in the attached 2 1/2 car garage of a 15 year old ranch home owned by a 75 year old widowed woman with no kids around. She is very security minded and always keeps the garge closed up. I don't believe mice got at the car.

[padgett]

The place to begin is the "Cranks but does not run" chart in section 6E3-A of the FSM. It is about eight pages long and is one of the more complex but tests everything. One of the first things that should happen when you turn the key on is that the injectors should "rattle" for a prime shot into the cyl. This is not dependant on the CPS but checks out the ICM and ECM.

The chart goes through the stages of determining if the various components are working. I have checked a CPS before with an ohmmeter. Should be steady but show continuity initially but swing as the engine cranks. The GM chart is the real sequence to follow if the quick checks do not work.

As to the BOB, you can adapt a 15 pin RS-232 BOB (I built mine from scratch). The hard part is the connectors, I know of no source other than a junk harness for one and a ded ICM for the other.

[Ronnie]

Sounds like a good plan Dave. Let us know what you find.

[harry yarnell]

Be careful with acronyms. CPS stands for 'central power supply', but could be 'crankshaft position sensor'.

Actually both of these rascals could be the culprit in this case!

[padgett]

OK, I meant the crank thingie. If you have access to the documentation section of reatta.net, "Cranks but does not start" is the last item (8MB)

[Roadster90]

Where might one find what Padget is refering to as the "RS-232 BOB" (took me a pair of seconds or more to figure out or who "BOB" was below please.

"As to the BOB, you can adapt a 15 pin RS-232 BOB (I built mine from scratch). The hard part is the connectors, I know of no source other than a junk harness for one and a ded ICM for the other."

I think an "understandable BOB" would a grand idea for the Forum.....

[DAVES89]

OK here is what I know. The injectors do not fire. I could not get the ICM/coil pack off as I had my junkin tools with me and I did not have a 11mm box wrench to remove that 3rd nut on the ICM.

I ended up doing a little housekeeping as the battery cable clamp was mounted in the wrong place forcing the cable to come too close to the A/C compressor.

Car still grinds, just won't fire...

I will remove that 3rd nut here at home [on the red] later today when the car cools down. The black's ICM only has the 2 nuts [i never put the 3rd one back on].

[padgett]

Break Out Box like this . Acually that is nicer than mine but I found the box I used at a surplus house along with some eight pair cable. As I said the hard part is the connectors - one came from a bad ICM and the other from a junk car with a 3800 & I spliced onto the cable. Inelegant but works.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

And I thought "BoB" stood for Baby on Board !

[DAVES89]

Yesterday I went to the local pick and pull and got a ICM/coil pack off a working Buick LeSabre [they mark their cars M/G which means motor good and a runner]. This AM swapped with the red Reatta so I know I will have a good working ICM/coil pack when I go to swap out the black Reatta's ICM/coil pack. I am doing it this way, because by the time I get to where the black is stored the red is too hot and I really don't like working on hot cars.

Besides I needed an extra coil pack anyways and now I know that I have a good working back up unit.

I also spent a fair amount of time sanding the crude off the bottom of the ICM plate to be sure of a good contact.

I hope this is it. However I am prepared to do the Crank Sensor next...

[DAVES89]

Well it's not the coil pak/ICM as I put the one off the red onto the black and still no start. Checked for spark with my spark plug tester. The tester showed no spark. Heard the fuel pump run and there was good pressure at the valve on top of engine.

Looks like a crank sensor...

[padgett]

Lok at the CBDNR in 6E3-A chart A-3 page 3 of 4. This part describes how to test for a faulty crank sensor. C3I module is the Ignition module (ICM). You need a 12v test light.

[Guest julioj]

I did all that, the same happen to mind. Hint: change both crank & cam sensors, when one gets weak, it will weaken the other. I found same on two others.

[padgett]

a) never heard that about one sensor affecting another though a short/leak in a 12v feed could affect everything on that line

if you tried the test, did the light blink ?

[harry yarnell]

Looking at the schematic of the two sensors, I can't see where a failure of any kind of one sensor, would affect the other.

The engine will start and run with no cam signal/sensor.

The usual mode of CAM sensor (code 41) failure is the missing magnet on the cam sprocket.

[padgett]

Was thinking more about a short being able to affect a whole section of ECM inputs.

[Ronnie]

Well it's not the coil pak/ICM as I put the one off the red onto the black and still no start. Checked for spark with my spark plug tester. The tester showed no spark. Heard the fuel pump run and there was good pressure at the valve on top of engine.

Looks like a crank sensor...

Has this issue been resolved Dave? Just wondering how it was going.

[DAVES89]

Thanks for your interest.

Haven't gotten back to it yet. J flew to Tulsa 2 days ago to buy a rust free 2004 Chrysler 300 for my wife.

My youngest daughter is getting married this Sat. My wife is taking vacation this week so she can be available for last minute help, or day trips for my wife and I.

Then back to work.

My wifes birthday is the Sat. after my daughters wedding, and we will be gone that weekend.

So it doesn't look like I will be working on it anytime soon...

[DAVES89]

A whole month went by? I got to it yesterday and did no further testing. Just installed the crank sensor and it fired up and ran.

That done now onto last of two issues. Replacing outer pulley on A/C compressor [2nd time]and pinstriping.

When the car was repainted a pinstripe was never put back on. I am thinking gold or red. Any opinions?

My mechanic friend thinks the pulley failure is due to the alternator pulley sticking out too far, causing a cross pull on the A/C pulley wanting to pull the belt back in. Don't know if that is entirely true, but the compressor is still good and there are 100's of those compressors out there, so off to the u pick yard I go...

[padgett]

If getting an alternator, be aware that there are two types of SI alternator used on 3800s that both fit and look almost identical, a large frame and a small frame - the diifference is less than an inch in diameter. (With a small frame the 2-4-6 wires will go under it. With a large frame they won't). I find that the large frame ones last much longer than the small frame.

[harry yarnell]

The pulley/clutch assy on these, I assume, origional compressors are known to gernade. Newer design doesn't fly apart.

I think the alternator story is BS...

[wws944]

If getting an alternator, be aware that there are two types of SI alternator used on 3800s that both fit and look almost identical, a large frame and a small frame - the diifference is less than an inch in diameter. (With a small frame the 2-4-6 wires will go under it. With a large frame they won't). I find that the large frame ones last much longer than the small frame.

The alternator in the Reatta is actually the later CS series. In particular, the CS-144 - which is a Good Thing. (The smaller alternator in the CS series was the CS-130 and the later CS-130D.) Interestingly, the CS-144 can be 'built' up to 200 amps or more. There are even outfits which make welders based on the CS-144!