My next project? 1921 Packard Coupe.

[Guest cben09]

From the other BEN,,,!!

Generally the motometer is like a light switch,,on or off,,,well below the circle or in the circle[middle]

If heating is problem,,make bracket to hold hood UP about 2-3",,,my 25 was fitted this way,,

Ex,,,They all had asbestos jacket about 3/8" , from the flange to about 2' back,,,total/ 25-30"

Fiberfax is the new stuff,,non asbestos,,,,some is fluffey,,,other is,,,,oh yeh,,,,DIPLAG,,,wet it and put on,,,got its own

adhesive,,,It would be possible to put layer of each,,Works great,,,

A small shield between the gas line and ex manifold may be good,,thats where the vaporlock may/will occur

I have only had vapor problems around summer solstice,,not the hot humid of aug,,,adj for hemisphere,etc,,

Glad youre enjoying the car ,,take lots of pics for memory book,,,be sure to include the people,,MY ERROR,,,

Cheers,,,C,Ben

Edited April 8, 2013 by cben09 (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hi C,Ben

I failed to mention that it was for mid Autumn (Fall) quite a warm day, 35degrees C. I have no problem with the motometer, having checked it against a thermometer I have found it to be quite "progressive" as far being an indicator of the radiators temperature. It was "just" showing about an 1/8 inch of red into the circle. The radiator was certainly a long way from boiling and water loss was minimal. I was probably expecting a little too much of a 1923 car with a comparatively new engine to have it running at a steady 50mph for some miles. Re the "hot feet" problem If I had thought to open the cowl vent it would have improved things and I had planned to wrap the exhaust "down pipe" but had simply not got a roundtoit. As soon as I turned off the "Freeway" and slowed down to 35/40 mph everything returned to normal.

That cannot be too bad. I have been spoilt by the Lagonda Rapier for too long.

Keep on keeping on

Bj.

Edited April 9, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Guest cben09]

Hi,,,Running water temp for these cars is frequently around 140f,,,hence the

tendency to have sludge in the 'case,,,Cheers,,,C,Ben

[oldcar]

Hello C,Ben

I have had some experience with the "sludge" that you refer to. I don't have a photograph of the inside of the oil pan and crankcase but this one of the side water gallery tells the story. Because the motor turned freely, some people would have just added water checked the oil and started it up. I prefer to look before I leap.

Keep on keeping on

Bj.

Edited April 10, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Talk about hard water!!

Ben

[oldcar]

I don't know about hard water but talking about hard words the Packard discussed here has been described on another thread as a "mongrel". Perhaps in the perspective of the most pure of purists who's only priority is scoring points on the show field this may be a valid criticism. As I have commented elsewhere I would have never NEVER restored the car back to an original 4 Passenger Coupe. To my way of thinking they were among the most ugly and impracticable cars ever to leave the Packard Factory. The original seating plan may have been ideal for a chauffeur driven, rather corpulent, doctor in the 1920s but as a useable car for pleasure driving for two people??? A fixed (non-adjustable) seat for the driver with a small folding "occasional' seat next to him and a seat for one and a half people (with cramped leg room if the occasional seat was in use)at the rear is not my idea of comfort.

I rest my case.

Keep on keeping on

Bj.

Edited April 11, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Landman]

Bernie, "mongrel" or not, it oozes class.

[trimacar]

In the other thread, you publicly asked for an appraisal of the current market for a car such as this. You shouldn't complain when an honest attempt to do so is made.

Matt gave a very good description of exactly what the market conditions are as they pertain to this specific car. To pull out the word "mongrel" from that excellent post does the post a disservice ....

The car, beautiful as it is, is neither fish nor fowl, as Matt states (in other words). Not a factory body, not a custom maker body, but rather a closed car converted to an open car. Wonderfully done, but done nonetheless, and that greatly affects the value to an enthusiast...

I'm sure someone will love it and pay a price, good luck with sale....

[oldcar]

Hello David

I was not attempting to disparage anything that Matt said. I am painfully aware of how the "Show" segment of the American "Collector Car" market see the car. Living and operating in a much more liberal environment I am used to dealing with people who look at Vintage cars as something to enjoy driving simply for the unique experience in driving an 80 or 90 year old car.

I am afraid the people who simply drive their cars in and out of trailers then dress up in fancy period costumes in order to pose beside their "car" do not realise just how much they are missing. If they get enjoyment out of doing this good luck to them but I cannot help feeling just a little bit sorry for them.

If by doing so they are fishing for compliments they would not believe how much more attention their cars would receive at the top of one of the numerous historic Alpine Passes in Switzerland, the Tyrol or the Southern Alps in France. There is only one way that all the people passing the compliments have arrived at the same destination.

What better way to "show" your car than actually driving it.

Keep on keeping on

Bj.

Edited April 11, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Not a factory body, not a custom maker body, ...

David/Matt

Please explain which part of the body (with the exception of the top and the interior, which I am happy to acknowledge) is not the factory body???

David,

How many entirely new interiors have you made for customer's cars?

To my (limited) knowledge it is the body that was on the car when it left the factory in 1923.

I have deleted this entire thread once before and if you are so unhappy with it I am quite prepared to do so again.

Just say the word.

Bj.

Edited April 11, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[trimacar]

I slightly misworded the statement, should have said "not a factory style body", in other words that body style was not offered at the factory. To be technically correct, the car has pieces of the body that left the factory, not a body style that would have left the factory.

I'm not sure what you mean by "entirely new". If you mean how many interiors have I installed that were not as they came from factory (i.e "new" instead of old style), the answer is zero. Every car I've worked on has been to original interior design, and have been lucky to have some wonderful original interior pieces to get the clues and do it correctly. I use original style materials (leather, horsehair, cotton, and so forth). I not only don't do foam and vinyl, I can't do it and do it well, it's an entirely different set of skills that I don't have.

If you're asking how many interiors I've done period, I'd say a hundred or more. It's not been my life's work. I started doing my own cars, then did it professionally at White Post Restorations for 2 years (and that was over 20 years ago). In the 20 years since, while being an engineer to make a living, I've done a few cars a year just to keep my hand in. Have been lucky enough to do a Packard Darrin and a Cord phaeton for a friend, a rare early 50's Cunningham, an Allard roadster, a 1910 Babcock that's in the Watertown NY museum, and numerous very nice early antiques and Classics. I have one such car in my workshop now, a delightful early roadster with a unique interior and many neat features, but I'm not posting about it (as far as pictures and description) because the owner hasn't given me that permission (nor have I asked at this point).

What would make you think anyone is "unhappy" with the thread? You do great work, your descriptions, photos, and work are all excellent, and you've saved a vehicle that would otherwise have been lost to the world. I believe all enjoy the thread. But this is a forum, not Facebook. I learned the lesson from one of my daughters (the main reason I'm even on that site, family) that Facebook pages are personal narratives, and negative comments aren't welcome and will be deleted if the page "owner" doesn't like them. The AACA forums are open for comment, positive and negative, and you can do as you like, but once other people have input and comments, you really no longer "own" that thread.

I also 100% agree with you that driving an antique car is much more fun than sitting in the sun next to a parked car, but everyone views the world differently.

Drive on.....

Edited April 11, 2013 by trimacar (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I have to ask, what is a "crescent moulding"?

Known generally as "half oval" in the States.

[oldcar]

I slightly misworded the statement, should have said "not a factory style body", in other words that body style was not offered at the factory. To be technically correct, the car has pieces of the body that left the factory, not a body style that would have left the factory.

Every part of the existing body is the original factory product in it's original factory configuration! Every stick of timber in the frame and with very minor replacement of corroded edges every panel, every panel has been replaced in exactly the same location as first fitted in the factory, using the same method of fixing ie C/s slotted head wood screws. The timber frame has been reinforced with additional timber in a couple of places ie corner blocks. If you can be bothered to go back through the thread you will see where I have explained the need for strengthening the original factory timber frame and replacing narrow sections of the rear aluminium side panels where they had been sandwiched between the fenders and the timber frame. The four fenders and the side valances are the same steel items originally fitted to the car when it was first assembled in the factory in 1923. The running boards have been replaced with exact copies of the original. When I purchased the car it still had the original factory pistons and rings in the engine. It was necessary to replace these after the engine was rebored. Likewise the babbit (white metal) linings in the main bearings and big-ends were replaced after the crankshaft journals were re-ground. When I dismantled the braking system I commented at the surprising lack of wear on clevis pins and yoke ends on the brake rods. These were simply cleaned lubricated and eventually re-assembled. I did reline the brake bands using as close as possible to the original material. Surely on the grounds of safety this is permissible. EVEN the internals in the exhaust silencer are those originally supplied by the factory in 1923. the outer case was replaced due to fork lift truck damage done during the cars time in storage.The same reason for replacing the running boards. I have replaced the oil in the crankcase, gearbox and rear axle housing although I doubt that these were the actual fluids supplied by the factory, likewise I must confess that I have re-inflated the tyres with pollution free Australian air. Having driven through parts of the mid-east of the USA I felt that this was a wise precaution. I have replaced quite a number of nuts and bolts, always using the same size and thread type as originally fitted although in some cases I must confess that have used hi-tensile replacements for mild steel and in some places stainless steel. I replaced all the engine gaskets with those supplied by Olsen Gaskets whom assure me that they were made to the original design.

It is not my fault and it was totally out of my control that the car was vandalised BEFORE it left America. At that time the roof was roughly hacked off and the entire interior, seats, door linings and every last piece of trim was ripped out and destroyed by unthinking and uncaring people.

Bj.

[trimacar]

I have no intent to criticize either you or the car.

You requested thoughts on value of car as it is now, received comments stating that the modified body hurt the value in today's market, and now you don't seem to agree with those comments.

It's not a personal attack, you took a project car and did a fine job of turning it into something useable.

Regardless of who chopped the top, it still remains a car that is not factory correct. if you don't want to hear discussion of that fact as it affects the value, don't ask for said comments, as you very specifically asked in the other thread...

[Roger Zimmermann]

Those comments may go forth and back as the point of view is different. The question I have is: what would be the market value from an unmodified similar Packard (if practical or not is not the point) with the same high level of restoration work? From there it is then a discussion between the would like owner and Bernie.

[Guest cben09]

Any good Packard salesman,having a customer for a bicuit brown runabout,,not a blue coupe

would have offerd to supply the desired car in 6 weeks time,any color body,,top in tan or brown,

black tyres,or white walls,,interior to suit,,

Thats how customs got created,,a good salesman and a telephone,,Some Rolls-Royce limos were

converted to runabouts,,,,,the guys have gottn used to it by now I think,,Lesser cars are junked,,

I have seen a one door Mercedes sedan,,layout similar to the Packard,,,,folding r-f seat,,all original

as far as i could tell,,1925 K model Doubt there was a catalogue pic of it,,,Cheers Ben

[oldcar]

Attached is a copy of an e-mail sent to David Coco this afternoon. I extend the invitation to anyone to inspect the car or to challenge my sworn affidavit in an Australian Court of Law.

According to the Factory Style number stamped into the bottom rail of each door and the centre rail inside the luggage compartment lid and further on the small brass plate fixed to the floor behind the passenger seat, the body is/was Style 222. Body Number 1432.

That the car was vandalised in America before it came to Australia does not detract form the FACT that ALL the existing body on my Packard is the remaining section of the actual body fitted to the chassis before it left the factory in 1923.

I invite anybody you care to nominate to inspect the car and attempt to prove it otherwise.

Regardless what you or anyone else may wish of hypothesise, the facts remain, all the of car existing today with the exception, as previously stated, of the convertible top, windscreen and the interior trim, are indeed those that left the Packard Factory as a single unit in 1923. I am prepared to make a sworn affidavit to this effect. Are you prepared to challenge this.

Below is a photograph taken during the restoration showing rear section of the original factory timber body frame. The second photograph taken only minutes ago show a close up of the actual factory stamped numbers in the inside of the centre rib of the luggage compartment lid frame. Stamped there by a Packard factory employee in 1923. The third photograph shows the entire body frame before it was removed from the chassis frame. Would someone please point out the NON-ORIGINAL parts.

Edited April 12, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Guest oldcar_jr]

Bernie,

The restoration you have done on this car is amazing. I have seen it with my own eyes so can attest to that. Not just looked at pictures on a computer screen. You have done a fantastic job with the materials available to you. Please take a deep breath, switch off your computer, go give your beautiful wife a kiss and get on with living your life.

From someone who cares xxx

[trimacar]

I don't understand why you take comments as a personal attack. That's not the case.

You're also confusing body style with sheet metal. The sheet metal on the car is Packard, no one said differently.

You specifically asked for comments on the car's value, as it sits now, a coupe Packard body converted to an open car.

ANY closed car converted to an open car, regardless of when or by whom in the public sector (I.e. not at time of manufacture by factory or known custom body builder) will be worth LESS than a comparable open car that came from the factory that way.

I agree with Jr., calm down and realize that you've done a great job on a project that most mortals would have walked away from, you have a beautiful car, and that the comments you've requested concerning market value are just "telling it like it is".

This is my response to your message, I'm out of this conversation now, tired of repeating the same thing and then being called out by name on a meaningless challenge, enjoy your car and hope you can make a good sale...

[MCHinson]

Bernie,

Like many others, I followed your Dixie Flyer restoration on the forum. I met you in Louisville when you brought the Dixie Flyer "home". I enjoyed our brief conversation then and enjoyed seeing your wonderful work on the Dixie Flyer up close. I have followed your discussion of the Packard with equal enjoyment. I certainly can't afford it, so I will probably never get to see it up close.

I have also met David. You and he are both talented antique auto restoration guys and both are great guys.

From my reading the recent posts in this discussion, I don't quite understand the argument. David has expressed, like the rest of us, that he is amazed at the quality of what you have done with the Packard. I agree.

[oldcar]

What I do not understand is that he agrees with another member on a Packard specific site on this Forum that the car would /should be banned from every American Antique/Classic Car Show Field. What have I done that makes the car so repugnant to American enthusiasts. As I see it, my main problem is that I have been honest and completely upfront about the car. Should I have started here by propagating a whole pack of lies about the car's history.

Bernie Jacobson.

Edited April 12, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Bernie,

While I have not seen the comment on the other site, I will stand by my belief that everybody who has seen this discussion is quite impressed with the work that you have done. I got rid of an award winning show car so I could focus more on driving other antique cars.

Another friend on the discussion forum has a signature that says something like, "If you are not going to drive them, you might as well collect clocks". Drive it and enjoy it!

[oldcar]

Hi Matthew

I guess what it all comes down to is that and I have made no secret of the fact I would like to sell the Packard in order to move on to my next project. I do not expect or wish to make a huge profit or even receive payment for my own input into the restoration. All I seek to do is to recover the bulk of the money that I have outlaid during the restoration. I do not think that I can be fairer than that. I keep exacting accounts of the money I spend. Note: Not the time I spend! I do this for the enjoyment and satisfaction I get from doing a job to the best of my ability. While I may be asking what appears to be a Top price I believe that my Packard can only be described as a Top car. I am really shocked and surprised at the totally negative attitude that so many of your countrymen have taken.

In effect both I and the car have been effectively excluded from the American Collector Car market.

There is no way that I am about to give the car away in order to see it re-appear on a dealers website/showroom at twice the price. I am not in a particular hurry to sell the car, as you say I can drive it and enjoy it. I just happen to be am extremely principled person and I believe in living by my principles. Regarding my Restoration Projects my PRINCIPLE is to only have one project car at a time. I cannot start my next project until the Packard (in this instance) has been "moved on". From what I an beening told, I have totally wasted my time and money as the car is Valuless

My 1934 Lagonda Rapier is the car that I have owned since 1978 because that is the car that I most enjoy driving. Very few people that I know of do more driving in their Antique Car than Helen & I do in the Lagonda. Apparently by American AACA and CCCA standards it too is a 'mongrel' but what a bite it has. It has also been known to wag its tail.

Keep on keeping on

Bj.

Edited April 14, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Bernie,

I trust that the right buyer for the car is out there. I have no idea who it is or where he or she is. Right now, our economy is not condusive to anybody that I know paying top price for anything right now. Personally, I could not even afford the shipping, much less the car, so I have not attempted to try to make any comment regarding price. As others have said, I have enjoyed reading about the Dixie Flyer and the Packard in your discussion threads. I wish you the best of luck in selling the car so we can enjoy reading about your next restoration adventure. In the meantime, I hope you drive it and have some fun with it. As a talented restorer I know says... "Keep on keeping on..."

[oldcar]

Thank you Matthew.

For all those people who do not like the original (unknown) history of my car I have decided to fabricate a new history which may be possibly more acceptable to some people. The Used Car Dealers among you I am sure will approve.

You had better sit down because

1.It will take a little time to read

and

2. It is so incredible it will knock you off your feet.

By the most unlikely coincidence, I have only recently been able to discover what may well be the true history of the Packard (Convertible) Coupe Chassis Number U28317.

It now appears that virtually all my earlier assumptions may have been incorrect!

Laid down during the later half of 1923 the car was ordered by the Paris, France, Packard Concessionaires, L’Automobiles Barbezat through the Packard Motor Car Companies sales office at 102 Avenue des Champs-Elycees. The chassis was to be supplied fitted with a Style 222, 4 passenger coupe, body. This was shipped on a C.G.T. (Compagine General Transatlantique) freighter some time in October-November 1923. At this time of the year the Atlantic is known for its unpredictable weather. The ship ran into one of the worst Atlantic storms recorded during the decade and was considered lucky to have reached the port of Le Harve on the Normandy coast. During unloading it was found that some of the cargo in the forward hold had broken loose causing a considerable amount of damage. A large crate containing an industrial electric motor had shifted, breaking the heavy ropes securing it and in the process shattering the pine crate protecting the Packard. The entire weight of almost 1½ ton resting on the roof of the car. This was almost totally caved in, breaking all the window glass including the windscreen and bending the steering column down against the seat cushion! Adding to the carnage a hatch covering the hold had split open allowing sea water to flood into the hold, it was only by frantic pumping that the crew managed to keep the ship afloat.

From Le Harve the car was transported by train via Rouen to L’Automobiles Barbezrat’s Service Depot at 13 Quai de Boulogne, Boulogne-sur-Seine on the western outskirts of Paris. Once the damage was assessed by the Marine Insurance Company, the car was taken on a float (transport) via the riverside road through the Bois de Boulogne north to Neiully-sur- Seine to the Carroserie des Ansart et Teisseire. A well-known coachbuilding firm specialising in prestige automobiles. Their particular speciality being Decapotable (convertible) bodies. After much discussion between Packard (France) M, Barbezart, the Insurance Company involved and M. Teisseire the principal in charge of Coachbuilding firm, it was decided that the craftsmen at A et T should carefully remove the remains of the now irreparably damaged roof retaining all the original factory aluminium panels below the waist line. This in order to convert the still unsold car to a luxurious open two seater with a folding fabric roof. The sodden and badly stained fabric interior trim along with the original Packard factory seating was removed, the little folding front passenger seat being deemed totally unsuitable for the soon to be changed character of the car.

The old saying goes that “An ill wind blows no good” in this particular case the reverse could be said to hold true. Thanks to the artistic prowess of M. Teisserire and the skill of the tradesmen at his command not only has he indeed created a veritable "silk purse" but also to M. Barbezat’s delight, instead of a standard Packard Coupe with limited appeal, he now was soon to have on his showroom floor a highly desirable convertible coupe. To further divorce the car form its comparatively humble beginnings, and after further consultation with designer-craftsman M. Teisseire it was decided to change the colour of the car from the staid Packard navy blue to a rich chocolate brown, a colour much favoured by Parisian socialites during the early 1920s. This was to be contrasted by a top quality biscuit coloured hide for the upholstery together with the highly fashionable “Salt & Pepper” fabric for the folding roof. Suddenly the Packard Concessionaire could see that rather than sustaining a loss, that he now had the makings of a handsome profit. Not only could he include in his inventory an outstandingly beautiful convertible but one that was totally unique in the world and as such, sure to command a premium. In no time at all the car was sold to a fashionable Parisian socialite. During the ensuing years the car was to appear parked outside exclusive salons along the boulevards of Paris.

Like all good things, the extravagant lifestyle of the Parisian upper echelon was to be brought to a sudden halt by the devastating World Financial Depression of the 1930s. Unable to afford the cars prodigious thirst for petrol or to maintain it in first class order. Reluctantly the car was left with a Paris garage to be stored on blocks to await a return of better times. Unfortunately a certain German Dictator had different ideas. To avoid confiscation, at first by the French authorities desperate for scrap aluminium and then the Nazi invading forces the car was hidden behind a hastily erected wall. There it was to stay until the late 1940s when a post-war Allied Military Forces work squad, clearing bomb damaged rubble on the outskirts of Paris discovered the car, by now somewhat battered and looking decidedly worse for wear. One of their number, an Australian “Digger”, (WW1 slang for an Australian Infantryman) always on the look out for anything interesting and capable of being sold on for a profit, quickly arranged for this prize to be towed back to base.

Over the next months and years the Packard changed hands several time until one Aussie, his tour of duty over and returning home, decided to ship the car back to his home port of Melbourne. Space on cargo ships being at something of a premium it was almost eight months later that a space aboard ship could be allocated to the car. In a deal with an American Gi, four new white wall tires were discovered and fitted to the car.

The returning Australian Serviceman’s initial plan was to bring the car up to a useable standard and sell it at a nice profit to one of his car hungry friends back at home in Melbourne.

While waiting for the car to arrive by sea, he started to make inquiries about the cost and work involved to convert the Packard to right hand drive, this necessary to make it acceptable to the Australian motor registration authorities.

Very quickly all his visions of a quick and easy profit turned to dust,

After a motor engineer friend explained that there was far more required than simply changing the steering box to the other side of the car, chief among these was the problem of moving the clutch and brake actuation pedals from left to right. It did not take long for him to decide that it would be better to cut his losses. This decision was reinforced when on the cars arrival the Australian Customs announced that Duty was payable on the car at the then going rate, almost 100% of estimated value. The cars fate was sealed and it was left abandoned on the docks as “unclaimed cargo”. After the required period of time the car was seized and moved into a locked “Bonded Store”. There it remained for almost 60 years until the requirement for more much needed and valuable storage space meant, that the long forgotten car was moved out into the open. It was only after some weeks in the open that it caught the attention of a part time dockworker, who had a passing interest in old motor cars. After making some enquiries he was able to buy the car from the Stevedoring Company in whose shed the car had lay hidden for over 50 years. Another four years later I bought the car from him and its restoration started.

Edited April 15, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

In future the car will be known as "La Parisiene"

Keep on keeping on

Bj.

Edited April 15, 2013 by oldcar (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

This ends the story of Bernie's Packard restoration. At Bernie's request this thread is now closed. I am sure that we all look forward to Bernie's next restoration. I am sure he will "Keep on keeping on".