My next project? 1921 Packard Coupe.

[Guest dirt farmer]

Oldcar:

Bernie. Re: the pistons in your first series Packard six. When mine was rebuilt the machinist said that pistons from a flathead six chrysler industrial engine would work well in the Packard, but with a few alterations needed. The tops of them extend slightly into the combustion chamber so they must have a chamfer machined onto them. New wrist pin bearings need to be custom made, but that is not a big job.

Now the REST of the story. The above mentioned machinist could not find a set of these pistons locally so he used bigger ones from a Canadian Plymoth/Dodge, .030 oversize. When boring out the block he hit sand pockets in two of the cylinders so they had to be sleeved- at my expense, of course. The Chrysler guys out there may correct me on this, but I wonder if the American Plymouth might have used the same pistons as the industrial powerplant? In any event, this will give you one more avenue to explore. And for these parts you will not have to pay the dreaded "P" premium.

[oldcar]

Hi Welcome to my thread "Dirt farmer".

Thanks for the info. I am not sure if any of the Chrysler industrial engines or parts would have made it to Australia. Chrysler Australia was gobbled up by Mitsubishi here quite some time ago. Only in the last two or three years have fully imported Chrysler and Dodge products become available here again.

My engine man tells me that he may be able to "reclaim" the original pistons by a ceramic coating process applied to the skirts provided that the bores do not have an excessive amount of taper. I have used this process on the top of the high compression pistons in the Lagonda engine as protection against detonation damage with some success.

Bernie J.

[Bill Boudway]

Hi Bernie,

I recommend Arias for the pistons.

I got a set for the Twin Six

When I took them to our engine rebuilder, he commented that they were the best he'd ever seen.

Let me know if you need the paint code for the green on the engine.

Regards from the cold, white north.

[oldcar]

Thank you Bill

Several people have suggested that I try them so I have already sent them an e-mail asking for prices and details.

The code for the engine paint colour would be a real help as I have seen several different shades on engines and am unsure which is the correct one.

The engine is all ready to lift but today I am baby-sitting grandchildren.

Bernie J

Edited January 26, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Many of you obviously have a lot more experience with Packards than I have. I have now removed the sump and have discovered a very poor attempt to weld the aluminium centre main bearing cap. Has anyone come across problems with the centre main bearing in early Packard Six engines?

I suspect the best way around this is to make a new steel cap. What is your thinking?

Otherwise the engine continues to baffle me. Having just removed all the valves they are all original and have plenty of life left. Just looking at it all makes me think that the head has never been removed. Certainly there are none of the usual tell tales such as centre punch numbering on the valves. No odd washers or nuts or rounded corners on the head nuts. Judging by the build up of dirt/clay/oil on and around the sump tells me that it is a long time since it was removed. . Yet looking around inside the crankcase everything is clean. I have not removed any bearing caps as yet but the big-ends seem to have no movement and feel good. There is quite a build up of sludge in the valve chest yet not nearly as much sludge and rubbish in the sump as I had expected. The oil pump screen is quite clean yet to get at the sump nuts I had to literally chop away the cooked on clay/oil up to half an inch thick and baked on really solid. We are going away for the weekend so won't get back to it until Monday.

I need to get the engine out (it is all ready to lift) so the chassis and body frame can go over to Aaron my body man. He is all ready to go and is waiting for me to deliver it to him.

Is all this weird or is it just me.

Bernie J.

Edited January 28, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Bernie,

Could you post some pictures so we can seed what you are up against.

Thanks

[Bill Boudway]

Hi Bernie,

Here's the PPG Delstar # for the Packard engine paint: DAR 45786.Dark Green

This has been reviewed by the Chief Judge for the Packard Club as correct for the early Packards.

If you need a sample, I can brush out some on an aluminum chip and send it along.

I wouldn't hesitate to make a new bearing cap of steel.

The shape shouldn't be too challenging to duplicate.

We'd all like to see photos.

By the way, who was your source for the snubber webbing?

[oldcar]

Hi y'all

The photos will have to wait until next week. We are off to the Coast to help my sister celebrate her 80th Birthday.

40+C forecast for Sunday then HIGH 30sC for the rest of the week. This always happens the week the children start school after their summer holidays.

Re: the snubber webbing so far I have not bought any. I had thought Restoration Supply Co but any suggestions welcome.

Bernie J,

[oldcar]

Another day in the HIGH 30sC. Finally have the engine & gearbox out and almost dismantled. Should get the chassis and body frame out of the way, at Aarons for some real work on the panels and I should have some room to work on the engine.

Photos soon.

Bernie J.

[Bill Boudway]

Hi Bernie.

Paint sample is on the way VIA US Postal Service (AKA snailmail)

Dark green, very dark.

Hope that it's helpful

PS: The engine paint that is available from Hirsch is for the later Packards. A lighter shade.

[Guest 1928Packard526]

Bernie —

Bill is correct. Earlier cars used a darker shade of engine paint. The photos of my engine in message #182 are correct as far as I know. I painted my engine 25 years ago and only discovered the difference when I wanted to use the current Hirsch product for touch ups. It is a much lighter shade. I would have to see samples of the PPG Delstar product, but it sounds like a better match to the original.

Regards,

Pete P.

[oldcar]

Hello Bill & Pete

Thank you both for your interest. I should get the block & head into my "engine" man's "hot tank" sometime this week. Once they are clean and any necessary work completed I can think about paint. It will be interesting to compare your paint "chip" with the one that David McC has sent me. It too is a dark olive green.

Bernie J

[oldcar]

On the subject of engine paint colour I have been able to save the remains of the original paint on the inside of the starter brush cover. This is a dark khaki green. Quite a bit darker that that shown on Pete's starter and a totally different green to David McC's sample. It will be interesting to see Bill's sample colour chip. If necessary I can probably use this as a sample and have some paint mixed to match. Meanwhile the engine is slowly coming apart. Right now I am waiting for a "tilt tray" tow truck to collect the rolling chassis and body frame.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

At last I have got the engine more or less stripped down.

The centre main bearing cap sure is a mess. It looks as though the village blacksmith had a go at welding aluminium for the first time. Good try but not nearly good enough.

Looks like a new one needed.

Bernie J

[Bill Boudway]

Hi Bernie,

That cap is "toast"

Good for nothing but a pattern.

Hopefully you can find a piece of aluminum to machine to replace it.

An aluminum forging would be perfect.

Steel would work, but the different rates of expansion between the steel and aluminum engine base may be a problem.

Keep us posted.

[oldcar]

How right you are Bill

Fortunately I have the choice of four or five excellent machine shops all used to doing work on "pre-war"engines. Heat treated aluminium bar stock is readily available so I will go down that path. Just to be sure that it will not happen again. I will follow Packard's lead and include a steel strip strap across between the studs under the nuts, as they did in later engines. It seems that Packard's engineers were aware of the problem as this improvement was made in the next series six cylinder cars.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

I have taken the liberty of reproducing some sketches that David McC has sent to me. Hope that you don't mind David.

Bernie J.

[Guest Silverghost]

Bernie:

There must be a scrap Packard engine here in the "States" that could be used to donate a bearing cap for your great Pckard restoration project !

Why not post a "Parts wanted " advert here on this & the Packard forum sites ?

[oldcar]

Hi Brad

Thank you for the thought. It seems that this failure was quite common in early Single six engines. In the overall scheme of things to machine a new cap is not all that difficult. Any second-hand replacement is going to be at least 75 years old and I know just about how that feels. I just hope that no-one expects me to work for another 25 years without having something fail. It would be a nice thought but just not realistic. After all not even the AACA Judges are going to see it once the oil pan is buttoned up so there should not be any worry about a loss of points for a non-original component, or is the rumour that they have x-ray vision actually true.....

On the theme of replacement parts can anyone suggest a source of gasket sets for the early series six engine. I don't mind cutting my own paper gaskets but it would be nice if you could obtain die cut gaskets for places such as the cylinder block to crankcase joint.

Bernie J.

Edited February 4, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Bernie,

No problem with the sketch, I tried to attach a photo of the broken centre main cap from my 126. Unfortunately our upload speed is too slow and it timed out. The break on mine is identical to yours and as we have discussed this was apparently not an uncommon problem on the 126/ 226 cars. The interesting thing is that it is only a problem with the wider centre main caps not the narrower but otherwise identical intemediate caps.

I would make a new cap with radiused corners where the crack originated, I think this would be better than a strap. The strap should ideally have some pre-load on the cap to effectively increase its strength.

David McCredie

[TexRiv_63]

On the theme of replacement parts can anyone suggest a source of gasket sets for the early series six engine. I don't mind cutting my own paper gaskets but it would be nice if you could obtain die cut gaskets for places such as the cylinder block to crankcase joint.

Bernie J.

Bernie,

Try Olsen's Gaskets: www.olsensgaskets.com

I have been very satisfied with their quality and service.

[oldcar]

Thank you Don

What a nice Pierce Arrow, we don't see to many out here in Australia.

I have already sent an e-mail to Olsen's this morning. Packard 32 beat you by sending me a p.m. I usually look at my e-mails first each morning then the AACA Forum. Either way they must have lots of satisfied customers and a good name to add to my list.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

Every so often you hear or read of people who drag cars out of barns, find that the engine is "free" and turn over nicely and decide to poor some gas into the carburettor and start it up. Some people have difficulty in understanding why I steadfastly refuse to do this with out stripping down the engine first. The Packard is a classic example. When I bought it I was told that the engine turned over and had good compression. why not see if it will start it could run "real good". NO THANK YOU!

So far I have discovered that there is an unacceptable amount of wear in the bores, that the centre main bearing cap had been cracked and badly repaired and would have probably failed the first time the engine was put under load. Now I have just removed the side water gallery from the cylinder block. Imagine just filling up the radiator with water and starting the motor. Have a look at the huge amount of rust and gunk ready and waiting to ruin the water pump, block the radiator and overheat the engine. What fun!

No, I think I will stick to my policy of striping down first, doing what ever is necessary to put the motor into first class working order, then starting it up and driving a reliable car.

Bernie J

[Larry Schramm]

WOW Bernie, What a find.

[oldcar]

Going on from the above I am about to have a new BRASS side cover plate made by a local Vintage Drivers Club member who specialises in this sort of press work. If any other early series Single Six owners would like to order one now is the time. I will have some photos and costing early next week.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

Hi Larry

How is it all going? Hope that you and a lot of the other AACA friends and managing to keep out of the cold. Living on the top of a hill, we have managed to keep our feet dry.

Re the above, It is simply a matter of look first rather than pay later!

Bernie J.

[Guest cben09]

Hi Bernie,,,Give this some thought,,,,,The brass and iron will make a galvanic cell,,,and yield galvanic corrosion,,and errode the iron[i think],,,I was careful to use copper manifold gaskets on my car in 1955,,,In 1995 when I took the manifold off I found the iron was errodid by the copper,,I had used steel on the intake and this area was O-K,,I cleaned it up and troweld on furnace cement,,,and bolted it to a piece of alloy,,and fired/cooked it overnite,,I preferd this to heating and welding,,Another detail,,someone commented about torque on manifold bolts,,not too hi or the manifold will not be able to creep as it gets hot,,,Some of these manifolds survive,,,others,,not,,Do I suspect tension is part of this,,?? Be sure to use brass nuts and "Never Seize" on the thread,, An old supplier,,Henry Yeska I think supplied these jacket covers for the 8s,,,wonder if he has done the 6s,,,Henry s gotta be i his 90s now,,He usually has an add in Hemmings,,Hope all this helps,,,,Oh yes,,,be sure to have the block on the c/case when you do work on the lower end,,as the block will affect the alignment of it all,,Curious,,,,how much was the block taperd and worn?/ Cheers,,Ben

[Guest cben09]

Hmmm,,,wonder if modern antifreeze may not be a good electrolyte,,,thus minimise the problem,??? Ben

[oldcar]

Hi Ben

Glad you survived all that snow.

I had thought that I would nickel plate the brass side plate. save on all that "Brasso"

I have to get everything cleaned up before I take it all to my engine man. First thing there will be to measure everything.

More later.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

Meanwhile there is an interloper in the camp. Arrived last weekend via a widow friend of my sister. It has managed to cover 127.000kms since 1996. Never been off road and never driven over 90kph (50mph).

It looks as though it has only had the one occupant (the driver)

Bernie J

[Guest cben09]

Was the baffle still on the inside of the side plate ?? It will have 3/4" hole at each cylender,,,Check for correct diamentions,,,this from memory,,,Ben

[oldcar]

No Ben

The baffle had totally disintegrated which is why I am having the new one made. I am just in the process of discussing the size of the hole with the manufacturer. He does have a sample from an earlier order. But it is good to be able to check.

Thank you

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

The next problem is removing the water pump from the front of the block. At present it is swinging from a chain hoist with all the weight of the block hanging from the pump along with a generous amount of penetrating oil liberally applied to the slip joint so far it has moved about 30 thousandth of an inch. I will leave it swinging overnight and see what happens. Obviously no one has adjusted the fan belt for a long long time!

Bernie J.

[Guest cben09]

If there is any movement at all,,,it is on its way,,back an' forth and it'll come,,only the very thin penetrating stuff,,,,here its "Liquid Wrench",,,or,,P-B Blaster[in spray],,Be careful,,,,there MAY be a small copper gasket behind the flange lip,,,Cheers,,Ben

[Larry Schramm]

Bernie,

Other than the 10deg F weather and colder things are well. Just trying to keep warm and dug out of the white stuff. Can not wait till spring/summer comes. Then I will get back to work on the trucks.

Larry

[oldcar]

Hi y'all

Ben, I am glad to see that your memory is not frozen. Thanks for all the advice and encouragement.

Larry, Just remember, when "Autumn leaves can Spring be far behind."

One of my favourite sayings. It covers a multitude of situations.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

I have just acquired a Dead Easy Tire pump, when restored it will make a handsome running board mounted accessory for the Packard.

What I need now is either a drawing (thumb nail will do) of the operating "crank" or some photographs of the underside.

Can anyone assist?

Bernie J.

[KenHupp20]

I did a Google Book search . Vol. 33 of Automotive Industries on page 1023 has an image that I think will give you the info you need .

Good luck

Ken

[MCHinson]

Here is a link:

Automotive industries - Google Books

The description is on page 1022 and a photo is on page 1023.

[KenHupp20]

better photo