Just bought 1916/17 Kelsey. Looking for 1920-24 Kelsey cars and parts. Leads?

[George Albright]

Dear Friends I just bought this 1916/17 Kelsey prototype,which was the pre-production model for the 1920-24 Kelseys built in N.J. by Mr Kelsey,of the three wheeled 1910-12 fame. It is a 103 inch WB with a 20 HP 4 cylinder engine made by Massnick Phipps of Detroit. It has an unusual friction drive setup at the BACK of the car,on the rear axle,rather than under the seat,like on a Metz and Cartercar. This was Mr. Kelseys personal car for several decades after the closing of the Kelsey factory in N.J. in 1924.He moved his family in this car to Troy N.Y. where he became the longtime President of the Troybuilt rototiller Company. This car was stored at the top floor of that building in Troy until around 1988. Kelsey bought a used touring car body of unknown orgin and mounted it on this chassis,which he removed from the car and discarded long ago. Otherwise it is original and complete,and the fenders from that unknown car are still on there.Does anyone recognize these fenders that are in their original gray paint?If so maybe it will lead us to the body he used on this car,which he started in 1916 and completed in 1917. The body was probably from the 1913-15 era. Massnick Phipps engines sometimes had "Perkins" cast in script into the side of the block,and were built for automotive and marine use. There may have also been a Perkins car built with this engine. MP engines were used in 1916-17 Woods Mobilettes,1914-18 Princess,1914-18, Saginaw,built by Lehr Motor Co. ,1915 Pontiac of Pontiac Chassis Co.,1916-18 Yale,and 1914 Fisher.Kelsey went on to build several hundred Kelsey cars in N.J. from 1920-24. Bodies were from Milspaugh-Irish of Detroit. Does anyone know of any 1920-24 Kelsey cars or parts in existence,as well as a late teens or early 20s touring body made by Milspaugh Irish,that I might inspect and/or purchase? I would also like to buy a spare Massnick Phipps engine if anyone has one. Your thoughts?? George Albright,Ocala,Fla. cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

[Steve Moskowitz]

Massnick Phipps? I have three of these engines.... Right, George you continue to amaze me with your finds. Looks like the car just needs a little spit and shine and you will be ready for an AACA show field!

[George Albright]

HPOF class,here I come!

[George Albright]

Was researching the cars that used Massnick Phipps engines and stumbled onto this photo of a 1914 Perkins,made in Detroit,with a MP engine,like in my Kelsey car. It is on the Russian website www.autogallery.org.ru The interesting thing is that it appears to have been a photo from an Ebay auction sometime in the past,whereby this car was offered for sale. I was not able to drill it any further. Does any one remember the auction,and/or know the whereabouts of this 1914 Perkins? Onward! George

[Ivan Saxton]

You are unlucky to have missed out on being able to consult Keith Marvin on this, George. Maybe his daughter in California might know of something in his records. I still have all the letters I have from Keith over the years, but no filing system, (which is why I have to remember things that are significant). Keith wrote to me once that Mr Kelsey had at least wanted him to have care, custody, and ownership of the prototype. Regrettably, I never was able to meet Keith when I twice visited USA, but my impression is that he did not have inflated estimation of his resources and experience in restoration, so from what you say he may never have held physical possession of the Kelsey. (He had earlier declined the opportunity to own and construct the final Wasp automobile). Keith was interested in, above all things, cars that were rare or one-off. About 1964 I directed him to the essential information about a Cardway, which one of I think 6 came to Australia and survived in excellent care until it happened that a relative of Colonel Cardway came to Australia in management of the Timken factory in the rural city of Ballarat. A friend of mine added this up and introduced him to the elderly owner, so he was able to restore the car of his relative, use it while he worked here, and take it back with him to USA.

Keith initiated I think, and largely produced for many years the publication Automobilists of the Upper Hudson Valley. Without a doubt, you would find the most comprehensive documentation of your prototype Kelsey if you can access a full set of these. Possibly the AACA libray might help you.

I have two friends who have friction drive Orient Buckboards, and another who restored and owned a very early one for years. I have always been very sceptical of the long term utility of friction drive for reliable transport, but one of these is just right, and has gone well on tours here over several decades without fiddling. (How many people know that Orient also offered a four passenger car, the Orient Surrey. It had a back seat on exactly the same chassis with the same engine. My tongue-in-cheek comment was that it may have been better than the Buckboard, because there would be two more people to push when necessary.)

There is a straightforward invisible way to improve the friction drive mechanism by putting a machined coating of Metco Spraysteel LS on the drive plate, which improves grip and durability. I still have an American Ariens rider-mower, for which replacement parts have always been hideously expensive through greed markups. So I have always done my own repairs. Metco coating on the driveplate was a huge improvement.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I just wondered if this "Mr.Kelsey" is in any way connected with the Kelsey-Hayes of wire wheel fame,perhaps that would be an avenue you could explore,George.For that matter,I wonder if the "Hayes" is connected to the company that made custom coupe bodies for Dodge and others in the late 30s

Edited April 16, 2010 by Dave Mellor NJ (see edit history)

[George Albright]

Dear Dave: Kelsey is no relation to the wheel Hayes. Dear Ivan Your grasp of obsure and complete automotive subject matter NEVER ceases to amaze me!! I got with the car the 1960 HCCA March April issue on Kelsey. However I only got 2 pages from another early Kelsey article,which SAH member Kit Foster,who has a complete set of The Automobilists,immediately recognized as part of a 1955 forty plus page The Automobilists article,written by Keith Marvin. Kit is getting me a complete copy of that article. Kit bought most of Keiths stuff and because of our talking is going back to the son and daughter in Calif. and will try to buy the remaining file cabinets of Keiths that are stored in a storage bldg. in Nevada. Keith died in 2009. Hopefully he will be sucessful,to insure safety of all of Keiths work! I plan on fully researching and documenting it,and getting it to run. I can find a period touring body like was originally on it,or as someone said on the AACA Horseless Carriage Forum on this subject,just put a speedster cowl and bucket seats on it,to show off the rear friction drive setup. will consider both. Ivan,where in the USA might I get some of that stuff that you successfully put on your friction drive disc? THANKS for your wonderful insight! George

[George Albright]

PS Speaking of a speedster body,does anyone have a pair of teens metal bucket seats,a speedster cowl,and/or a period oval or round gas tank,to make a speedster body on this car,like on a 1914-15 Metz,Overland,Hudson,etc.to show off the rear friction drive setup? Leads appreciated. George email; gnalbright@gmail.com

[Guest cben09]

Hi George,,,Somehow I think impending doom of the disk is overblown,,,I have myself seen Louie Biondi [Ct]spin the wheels of his buckboard/surry on the trailer ramps ,,that was the year he ran "Deadhorse Hillclimb " in Worcester,,,,,,The disk with my Orient engine has what looks like leather ,screwd to the surface,,not sure if its standard,,There are pics in Buy-s/about a week back,,will work on more pics,,,Cheers Ben

[1937hd45]

I got to see the Louie Biondi Orient surry for the first time in 1965. It has an Orient Twin for power, how did it do in the hillclimb?

[Guest cben09]

The overall concept of that car is like a Harley 74 attached to a toboggin,an'wheels,, I'm sure Charlie Metz saw the old men Stanleys as fair game,,,,only 5 miles up River St,,and river st is flat,,,Main St is hillier,,,There is another of those twins in the "Charles River Museum,,has steering wheel,,,,As ever,,Ben

[George Albright]

Here is a factory photo and info on the back of it,of a 1922 Kelsey production model. It is thought several hundred were built with various 4 and 6 cylinder engines from 1920-24. This car has friction drive in the rear,like my 1917 Kelsey prototype has. Notice how appointed this car is,with a tinted green glass sun visor,Ks on the hubcaps,fancy radiator crest,etc,etc. Any one know where any of these are or parts of them are? Thanks,George

[Jphipps]

I am looking for a Massnick-Phipps engine, If anyone knows of one for sale please contact me. Thank You

[Jphipps]

On 4/15/2010 at 1:54 PM, Steve Moskowitz said:

Massnick Phipps? I have three of these engines.... Right, George you continue to amaze me with your finds. Looks like the car just needs a little spit and shine and you will be ready for an AACA show field!

Hello Steve,  I am looking for a Massnick-Phipps engine. If you know of one for sale please contact me.  My husbands Great Grandfather was Walter Phipps of Massnick-Phipps. Any leads would be greatly apreciated.

Johanna Phipps

[JRA]

On 4/15/2010 at 5:04 PM, George Albright said:

HPOF class,here I come!

Hello George, please give us an update on the prototype Kelsey! How is it, 14 years later?

[SLDMRossi]

Massnick Manufacturing Company -- Detroit, Michigan: 1907-1909. Turned into the Michigan Auto Parts Company, through 1923. From American Marine Engines, by Stan Grayson.