Northstar in a Reatta?

[ReattaTType]

Hello everybody, I am just wondering if anybody knew about any Northstar swaps been carried out with the Reattas? I know the Allante had the motor in 93 and they share the same platform, just wondering if anybody had done this, and how? I am just not sure about how the motor would fit in, how it would mount up etc.? I am assuming similar to the Allante however. Thanks for any info anybody can provide, I am comparing in either doing this swap, or the L67.

[handmedownreatta]

there has been reatta swaps using the 4.9 caddy engine.[the one before the northstar]

[Larry Schramm]

I would keep the V6 and if you wanted more power, get a 3800 v6 supercharger engine and put it in the car. Or maybe a turbo V6 from a Grand National.

[Booreatta]

Yes this has been done. The car is/ was owned by David Branchfield and there is a photo of the car in the December 08 edition of the Buick Bugle on page 28

Merry Christmas

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

Hello everybody, I am just wondering if anybody knew about any Northstar swaps been carried out with the Reattas? I know the Allante had the motor in 93 and they share the same platform, just wondering if anybody had done this, and how? I am just not sure about how the motor would fit in, how it would mount up etc.? I am assuming similar to the Allante however. Thanks for any info anybody can provide, I am comparing in either doing this swap, or the L67.

If you are planning on doing it in a 88/89 I would go with the 3800 SC. This way all of the TCC works to include the diagnostics.

If you are doing it in a 90/91 the northstar would be a good choice. I would strart with a donner engine craddle, tranny, and engine from a Allante. I believe it was a 94 they threw the Northstar into.

[padgett]

1993 was the first. Would need a non-abs PCM (ECM with trans) and to use the matching e-trans (4T80?) and harness. Next you would need to diddle the ALDL data stream to match what the BCM expects, has anyone done that ?

[harry yarnell]

"92 was the first year for the Northstar (and last) in the Allante. Northstar's started to appear in lesser Cadillacs in the following years, until '95 when most Caddy's had them. I've got the manuals for those year caddy's; maybe I'll look up the dimentions of the cradles and see what maybe a drop fit.

Be advised, Northstar's have a nasty habit of blowing headgaskets, especially the '97-98 years.

[padgett]

and a blown headgasket requires removing the head. Not for the faint of heart and requires new 11 mm bolts as well. Think Quad-4 X 2.

[KDirk]

Yup,

Personally, I'd stay away from the N* in any car. This, in fact, is why I own a Reatta. I really wanted an Eldorado, but the notoriety of the Northstar with it's head gasket issues, half case oil leaks, and 5 hour alternator replacements (yeah, it is a dog to get to, I've do it on 3 N* equipped Cadillacs) convinced me to avoid it at all costs. Glad I did, since the Reatta is a great car and I don't have to worry about the engine going south due to what I consider poor design.

FWIW, it is not just the 97/98 engines affected. Cadillac redesigned the heads and head bolts (for length and thread pitch) at least 4 times since the engine was first brought to market. Even the 2001-03 engines were still having head warp that pulled the bolts and caused catastrophic head gasket failures. To me, this is inexcusable after an engine has been around for 10 years. How long does it take to get it right? Or can it even be made right to begin with given the failure rate even after multiple redesigns? Ask yourself those questions and think hard about the answers.

Just not worth the potential cost and aggravation of ending up pulling it and rebuilding it later to do this swap IMO. And, the rebuild is not foolproof. Time-serts are used (inserted in the stripped head bolt holes) to provide new threads in the repair. These can (and often do) pull out just as the bolts did, leaving you with the same problem. I've seen this happen on N*'s that were done by mechanics that had many dozens of such repairs under their belts, so it isn't a matter of shoddy repairs, but rather of the porosity of the aluminum castings not being strong enough to hold everything together tight.

I'd stick with a 3800 SC or a Cadillac 4.9 swap. FWIW, the 4.9 is an outstanding engine, had the lowest warranty claim of any engine Cadillac ever offered based on what I have been told by a dealer service mgr. True, it is only 200HP but that would be a net gain of 30+HP in a Reatta and since it is OBDI (was dropped at the end of 1995 model year) and mates to the 4T60E trans, the swap would be much easier to do I think.

Sorry, but being that it is Christmas, I'm gonna call the Northstar a lump of coal in the stocking.

KDirk

[Guest SheldonZ28]

Some good info here guy's.

Gonna hit at the head gasket issue here. There is a company that offers a MLS replacement gasket for these motors, and ARP has a stud kit that will work in these motors.

ARP Head Stud option - Cadillac Owners Group

With MLS gaskets a stud's, you can be sure it wont be blowing gaskets, and if it does, then its a deck thickness issue on the motors, which im sure is not the issue.

I imagine the actual fitment and wiring of the motor will not be tough, and i can simply build him a nice header set and custom exhaust to get a little more then 300hp out of the motor.

Im not sure whether dave (hndblt88) will decide on the northstar or the L67, but either way, i dont see why i cant make this a reliable motor with studs and MLS head gaskets.

Ive put 30psi of boost on MLS gaskets & Head stud's in my LSx V8's and not even had them push water. im sure stock pressures wont blow it out in this case.

[padgett]

Actually the problem is a lot older than a decade, try two. Had to rebuild son's 1990 Grand Am with quad-4 (also DOHC & 4 valve/cyl ). By '95 it had four different TSBs on how to torque the head bolts and just getting all of the pieces assembled in the right order made a head gasket a nightmare.

In the case of the GA there was so much engine sealer in the bolt holes that the bolts would not even touch the head before reaching torque. GM specifically said not to clean the threads but I had no choice. Once the threads were clean and deep enough. the head torqued nicely (38 lb-ft then 60 degrees AFAIR) and went for another 40,000 miles before being sold.

Quad-4 was an excellent engine that should have been in the Fiero but took some skill to assemble properly. Suspect the later Ecotec and perhaps the Northstar/Aurora engines were derivatives.

[Guest Road mister]

If it's a fit, sounds like a screamer. I had a 90 Seville with the predecessor of the Norstar. The performance was very impressive and downshifting was strong.

I had 130K with no head gasket problems, this all aluminum motor was designed to run its best at 230* . A common problem is stretching the timing chain. If you do attempt this, change it while its on a stand. Also it must run on premium gas only.

[Rawja]

I had a 91 Sedan DeVille with the 4.9 and a '94 Concours with the Northstar, both were new and on 2-year leases so I can't comment on durability but either one would certainly provide more than adequate motivation in a Reatta. That said, I'm not dissatisfied with the Reatta's bone-stock performance, more power is nice and all but given how happy it is to cruise at hyper-legal speeds as it is I don't see how it is worth the effort to drop a second off the 0-60 time of what is already an adequate performer.

[padgett]

My opinion is that the Reatta is deceptively quick because of its turbine-like performance (very flat torque curve - over 200 lb-ft from 2000-4400 rpm).

Yesterday was traversing central Florida on TLBs, and was in several passing occations. 40-70 happens in the time it takes to pass a short car.

Last time I checked, 0-60 took 8.6 seconds.

Still say that to go quick for less money than a swap for a Reatta, just buy a Fiero. It is good to have a spare anyway.

Do admit that rational thought requires something topless, and something fast enough to do something stupid in. They just do not need to be the same car.

[harry yarnell]

I've done my share of engine swaps for giggles, but with old age, I think I'm done, BUT, I'd LOVE to swap a Northstar into a Reatta. Closest I came was to put a 3800(code C) motor and 4T60 into a Fiero. Sucker was fast!

A Corvair powertrain in a VW bus was also a screamer...but I digress...

[padgett]

Most interesting swaps occur not by design but by having a ded car on one side of the garage, a "more" engine on the other, and a slow rainy day.

[handmedownreatta]

once i found a 500 caddy engine and trans in a junkyard hearse.i bought it not knowing where i was going to use it.i ended up putting it in a 64 chevy pickup.

[Guest craig hewitt]

Whats the scoop on a 4.5 as I just bought a 89 allante seems real peppy compared to my reattas how about standing up to the test of time just fell into this car and had to buy it not knowing anything about the product line always and forever will have Buicks in driveway Craig

[padgett]

4.5 is an upgrade of the original 4.1, believe that is an iron block/aluminum head pushrod engine.

Specs indicate it will be about 1/2 second faster 0-60 than a Reatta but will want more and premium fuel.

I have thought several times about an Allante, particularly before the white car came along. Big plus to an 89 is that it still had the Recaro seats and the removable hard top standard minus was the premium fuel and all of the 3800 parts I have. Real decider was that I just did not like the steering wheel (though could have been fixed).

[Guest Richard D]

My opinion is that the Reatta is deceptively quick because of its turbine-like performance (very flat torque curve - over 200 lb-ft from 2000-4400 rpm).

Yesterday was traversing central Florida on TLBs, and was in several passing occations. 40-70 happens in the time it takes to pass a short car.

Last time I checked, 0-60 took 8.6 seconds.

Still say that to go quick for less money than a swap for a Reatta, just buy a Fiero. It is good to have a spare anyway.

Do admit that rational thought requires something topless, and something fast enough to do something stupid in. They just do not need to be the same car.

Just for the heck of it, plus the Skylark was due to be exersized after driving it normally I wanted to compare the feel of acceleration to that of the Reatta. The Skylark is a 71 vert with a 350 cid 2bbl and a 350 turbo-hydramatic. I had a hard time getting a good start in the Skylark due to the rear tires wanting to make smoke unless very careful use of the gas pedal was employed. In the Reatta I could just stomp on it and the built in launch control (fwd-165 bhp) took care of tire spin. The Reatta felt just a little faster to 50 mph. This may be due to my poor launch skills in the Skylark. After ticking off most of my neighbors:mad: my feelings are that while a V-8 in a Reatta will be a rocket how often would you use that extra power?

PS. There was almost no torque steer in the Reatta.

[KDirk]

Good points all,

The 4.5 Caddy V8 is the successor to the 4.1 (decent, but slightly anemic in a Cadillac at around 2 tons curb weight) and immediate predecessor to the 4.9. The 4.5L is factory rated at 180 HP with a 4T60, FWD of course. Thus, the re-bore to 4.9 gained it 20 horses, pretty darn respectable increase for a pushrod engine that started life as the dreaded HT4100. Funny how it went from one of Cadillacs worst engines (HT4100) at least by word on the street reputation to one of it's all time best as the 4.9.

Note that the first 4.5 in 1987 was TBI. In 1989 or 1990 (not sure now) it was changed over to port fuel injection (much better). In 91 it became the 4.9, and remained essentially unchanged til the end of its run in 1995. The later (94-95) 4.9's had an improved PCM that was much better protected against burning out the injector trigger ports, and also improved engine mounts.

That last gen 4.9 would be my choice if I were to do any swap on the Reatta. In defense of the 3800, it is pretty decent at powering the Reatta as has been pointed out. Additionally, you would be hard pressed to find a more bullet proof motor, and if long term reliability and serviceability is your primary focus, I don't think it can be beat.

One last thing on the Cadillac 4.5, it has a screw-ball air diverter valve on the emissions control system that is known to blow it's guts and make the car run poorly, or not at all. There were early and late production versions of this part, and they are not interchangeable based on my experience with a 1990 Sedan DeVille some years back. Something to watch out for for Allante owners, and anyone contemplating a swap for this engine.

KDirk

[handmedownreatta]

i so want a 4.9 fiero...

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

From everything I have read here, I would just go with the 3800 SC. lighter and more powerfull, pluss it is almost a bolt-in. This is unless you are going with the Northstar. Then you may have a bit more power but a much bigger headache.

[handmedownreatta]

btw there is a new 1992 northstar engine[crate motor?]on my local craigslist.

[padgett]

A number surfaced last year in either California or Nevada from Shelby's that never were.

ps '92 ? Northstar ?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

yea the Shelby Aurora engine may be interesting to use...

but I'd stick with an L67. Definitely reliable, fits right, far fewer ECM issues, and can make a ton of power...

[Guest Telco]

Hmm... 500cid Caddy in a Reatta... I contemplated this swap when I had an S10 pickup (truck was in a wreck, which prompted the Reatta purchase) but decided that the engine would be too hard to get parts for compared to a Chevy small block.

I plan to get another work car in about 3 years, after I get my current house sold (just sold a second house a week or two ago) and a new house up. After that, I plan to either offer the car here for sale, or move it into the new shop for a total do-over, including converting the car to rear wheel (or maybe even all wheel) drive, and sticking a V8 in. Or, might build it into a serial hybrid.

Dunno what I'll do yet, but I can definitely say that if I do rework the car, a number of changes go into it. Biggest one is going to be modifying the windshield so that the car will accept a more commonly available piece of glass. I also plan to strip every single wire out of the car and rewire it from scratch, and when that happens that stupid CRT centralized control unit goes up for sale. I'd rather trash it, but just because I don't like it doesn't mean someone else won't want to have it, and I'd feel bad about trashing a rareish item just because I don't like it.

If the engine goes before that happens, I plan to get a 3800 drivetrain from the local salvage yard, will get the engine, transaxle and computer, and will stick it in. Will try for a newish Grand Prix non-supercharged engine. I test drove a supercharged Grand Prix and a NA Grand Prix, the SC model was marginally faster, not enough for the butt-dyno to measure a difference, but the SC model needed premium.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Telco (see edit history)