WTB Open Duesenberg needing restoration

[Guest Hartfordland]

I am looking for an open Duesenberg that needs a resto. Body swap OK but no later rebodies. Thanks.

[Guest ChrisSummers]

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but seriously...good luck with that. I keep pretty close tabs (not Randy Ema close, but I don't have his connections) on surviving cars, and as far as unrestored open ones go, they're pretty much extinct.

If you have any historical questions on a car you find, let me know, I'll be happy to help if I can.

[alsancle]

Chris,

In the last 10 years there have been 3 or 4 unrestored (or restored 50 years ago) open Duesenbergs that have sold that I know of. I'm sure Randy knows the exact count. I'm thinking of the one Dick Shappy bought and the one that Doc Clemens owned for years. Last year a Model A sold too. I agree with you that there may be one or two out there but if they are truly unrestored (Model J) they may command as much as a restored car.

A.J.

[Guest ChrisSummers]

Sorry, let me reword that: unrestored cars that are for sale are almost extinct. The Clemans car isn't going anywhere. Dick Shappy, by his own admission, will sell anything he owns if someone offers him enough money. His car, while beautiful and sympathetically done, is no longer "unrestored."

I'm convinced there's still one in Paris.

[alsancle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisSummers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm convinced there's still one in Paris. </div></div>

Which one are you thinking is in Paris? I believe that there hasn't been a "real" Duesenberg discovery in 40 years. They come out of the woodwork every once in a while but are never a complete surprise.

[Grandpa]

The hopes of finding an un-restored Model J are nil to none.

There is the little known un-restored circa 1923 Duesenberg Model A roadster in California. The car has a prewar body swap with a 1920s roadster body. The car has not seen the light of day since it was parked in the family garage in the 1930s.

Grandpa

[DLynskey]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisSummers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have any historical questions on a car you find, let me know, I'll be happy to help if I can.</div></div>

Chris,

Check for a Private Message.

don L.

[West Peterson]

I believe that these open cars are still unrestored:

J-564

J-200

J-242

J-397

J-242

And J-159 is an open-front town car that is unrestored.

[flackmaster]

West - that is a very interesting car in the photo. I have a picture taken in the 50's of a very similar (or possibly the same) car that my Dad tried to track down for many many years. I will have to dig out the photo. In the meantime, could you please advise and ex-ACD'er what car that is? thank you.

[West Peterson]

J-242

[Guest ChrisSummers]

West, J-200 has been restored, but the restoration is over 50 years old and was done to the standards of the time, and J-159 has had a cosmetic restoration. J-564 is claimed as unrestored but old photos of it clearly show a darker paint color.

Thank you for the photo of J-242. It's the first recent picture I have seen of that car.

It's not so much that unrestored J's are "gone," it's that they are unavailablee. Except for J-159, all of the above cars aren't going anywhere soon, to my knowledge. J-200, in particular, is owned by the Museum of Science & Industry, Chicago.

Flackmaster, I am very interested in that photo as well. Please post it if you find it, I'm sure others are interested, too.

[Guest bobscads]

West, is J -242 still owned by the same long time guy in Ca.? Bob

[West Peterson]

Still owned by the longtime owner in Ohio.

[keiser31]

Don't know the car number, but there used to be a "Colonel Porter" in Poway, California that had a red and black Duesenberg (touring or phaeton, I believe).

Edited August 6, 2009 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

In reference to a car in Paris, Ray Wolff told me that about 50 cars that went to Europe were unknown, even I understood original ownership. The J may be an icon now as in its currency; but the A is probably a better car with respect to its contemporaries. In 1983 I spoke to the original owner of the A that has been in Melbourne since he ordered it and took delivery at the factory in 1923 when he was 23. (I understand he lived into his late 90's.) With the highest option of compression ratio they would provide, and the quickest axle ratio, he was given a certificate that they had timed it at the Brickyard at 106mph. I understand the current owner has this. Fred Duesenberg took him for a ride on the Speedway in the new car, with the inside wheels of the bricks because it was smoother. Model A was under-rated. The cars that are not valued as they deserve are those with the Rochester Duesenberg engines, and they can really shift the scenery; though original brakes do not match the performance. Ivan Saxton

[West Peterson]

"quickest axel ratio"???

That would lower the top speed, wouldn't it?

Ian

I agree what you say about being underrated: I've talked to more than one Model A owner, one who is VERY well to do and owns an X and an Z and who could easily afford to buy a nice J. I asked him why he hasn't completed the triumvirate, and he basically said what you have and has no interest in the Model Js.

[Ivan Saxton]

Easiest way I reckon to understand is that the axle ratio is the number of turns of the crankshaft for exactly one turn of the back wheels. For instance, Ralph Buckley had a 2.9 to one gearing in his Series 5 Mercer Raceabout, when the usual was 3.2. My 1918 Series 4 Sporting, which has longer wheelbase and is heavier than a Raceabout has 3.6 to 1, but I reckon it would handle a 3.2 without effort. Alan Powall told me they did offer him a choice of ratios. With a lower numerical ratio your acceleration would suffer, but you could go faster before you heard valve-bounce. The 1922 A that Ray Wolff insisted I bought from his friend Manuel Yglesias Davalos in Mexico was a Bender sedan: yet with 3ft cut out of the chassis as a racing car they were timed for a flying kilometre at 106mph about 1940. (I have restored the chassis to standard length). The J is as big as a truck to me, too. A magnificent thing, but huge. Remember that Augie always continued to cherish his personal A, which is in the Speedway Museum. Now people have variously believed and written over the years that the Stutz DV32 was copied and inspired by the J: Still a big car, but not vast like the J. Now if you re-read the Stutz chapter in your copy of John Bentley's 50's book "Great American Automobiles", he quotes factory statement that they tested DV32s for a couple of years on the Speedway, deserts, and mountains before it was put on the market. Now I have cast iron confirmation of that. Engine number DV30004 was cast June 27 1928, with the word SPECIAL cast upside down on the left of the block, and cored for extra wall thickness for 3 3/8"bore on a BB style block. The main bearing caps are massive, about 1.5"deep. (They must have been aware of the weakness here. A fellow in Syney some years ago had a centre main bearing cap break on his BB stutz on a club run. This may have been what happened to the Stutz that failed in the match race with Weymann's 8 litre Hispano at Indianapolis.) Now all I can learn is that my engine surfaced in New Orleans, and passed through various ownership as people ratted bits off it and puzzled over the numbers and why it had holes drilled in the crankcase. (Two extra breathers, like the 1929 supercharged Stutz from LeMans.) What it means is that Stutz were running multiple DV32 prototypes at exactly the same time Duesenberg were running their J prototype around town. When you look at the dates, it is highly likely that Frank Lockhart was involved in the development of the DV32 before his last drive at Daytona .

Ivan Saxton

[West Peterson]

I understand axle ratios. When you said the "quickest" axle ratio, I took that to mean it would get the car up to speed the quickest. That type of ratio, however, would not be the type that would take that car past 100mph, let alone 90mph. Am I not correct? Or am I totally confused?

[alsancle]

The A Duesenberg is a great car. Many A engines found their way into race cars which you cannot really say about the J. From a collectible standpoint, the A suffers as all 20s era cars do when compared to those of the 30s. I think much of this has to do with styling.

[alsancle]

Easiest way I reckon to understand is that the axle ratio is the number of turns of the crankshaft for exactly one turn of the back wheels. For instance, Ralph Buckley had a 2.9 to one gearing in his Series 5 Mercer Raceabout, when the usual was 3.2. My 1918 Series 4 Sporting, which has longer wheelbase and is heavier than a Raceabout has 3.6 to 1, but I reckon it would handle a 3.2 without effort. Alan Powall told me they did offer him a choice of ratios. With a lower numerical ratio your acceleration would suffer, but you could go faster before you heard valve-bounce. The 1922 A that Ray Wolff insisted I bought from his friend Manuel Yglesias Davalos in Mexico was a Bender sedan: yet with 3ft cut out of the chassis as a racing car they were timed for a flying kilometre at 106mph about 1940. (I have restored the chassis to standard length). The J is as big as a truck to me, too. A magnificent thing, but huge. Remember that Augie always continued to cherish his personal A, which is in the Speedway Museum. Now people have variously believed and written over the years that the Stutz DV32 was copied and inspired by the J: Still a big car, but not vast like the J. Now if you re-read the Stutz chapter in your copy of John Bentley's 50's book "Great American Automobiles", he quotes factory statement that they tested DV32s for a couple of years on the Speedway, deserts, and mountains before it was put on the market. Now I have cast iron confirmation of that. Engine number DV30004 was cast June 27 1928, with the word SPECIAL cast upside down on the left of the block, and cored for extra wall thickness for 3 3/8"bore on a BB style block. The main bearing caps are massive, about 1.5"deep. (They must have been aware of the weakness here. A fellow in Syney some years ago had a centre main bearing cap break on his BB stutz on a club run. This may have been what happened to the Stutz that failed in the match race with Weymann's 8 litre Hispano at Indianapolis.) Now all I can learn is that my engine surfaced in New Orleans, and passed through various ownership as people ratted bits off it and puzzled over the numbers and why it had holes drilled in the crankcase. (Two extra breathers, like the 1929 supercharged Stutz from LeMans.) What it means is that Stutz were running multiple DV32 prototypes at exactly the same time Duesenberg were running their J prototype around town. When you look at the dates, it is highly likely that Frank Lockhart was involved in the development of the DV32 before his last drive at Daytona .

Ivan Saxton

Ivan, this is very interesting and you should really re-post it in the Stutz forum. I know that the DV-32 (which was a better overhead cam setup the the J) was developed independently but I'm amazed at how many people think that Stutz copied Duesenberg.

[Ivan Saxton]

West, I am sorry to have misunderstood you. I am very literal in receptive communication, in common with most Asperger's syndrome people. This is largely very beneficial, but with certain things you try to adjust to. It is amazing how many notable identities of the early motor industry were this way. What Alan Powall told me about this meant that he wanted his car to be capable of the highest top speed. He was a lead-foot, and he and one of his friends jointly owned a French car of uncommon make, for which they had two engines. One they used for normal daily driving, and they would install the hot one for the weekend if there was car racing. His parents did not like his car racing; and his father offered to buy him any car in the world if he promised to give up. The second owner showed people the certificate that it had been timed at 106 at the speedway when he offered it for sale about 1961. Sure, the same car with slower gearing will do better at hillclimb or 1/4 mile sprint competition, or at traffic light grand prix. But people often expected to drive in a different way to us, including not needing to change out of top.

[Guest jeffome]

Not to tease unneccessarily, but J-445 is unrestored and resides quietly in a private Maine collection...1931 Duesenberg J Convertible Victoria by Rollston....and it is not for sale.....

[keiser31]

Not to tease unneccessarily, but J-445 is unrestored and resides quietly in a private Maine collection...1931 Duesenberg J Convertible Victoria by Rollston....and it is not for sale.....

Now THAT is a SWEEEEET one!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm in love.

[alsancle]

Very nice. I assume that's Bob Bahre's collection?

[West Peterson]

Jeff

How long has he had that? I've never seen it before?

[K8096]

That tan victoria looks like the one in the henry Ford museum. That was an original car too. It's been about 10 years since I've been up there.

[West Peterson]

Strikingly similar.

[K8096]

Boy, are they ever. They even both have red painted brake drums.

[West Peterson]

The Ford Duesenberg has engine #J266 and chassis #2413, so it is not the same car. The engine came out of a rhd test chassis (#2287), which was dismantled and converted to lhd and fitted with a Murphy convertible sedan body and engine #J453.

[Packman745]

I am sure some of you have seen this on ebay this week.

Other Makes : Duesenberg:eBay Motors (item 120472555184 end time Oct-13-09 08:53:09 PDT)

I don't think this is quite what you are looking for but it does have potential being an original chassis.

By the way Mr. Bahre's collection is fabulous! I'd just like one thanks!

[mdsbob]

This car was bid to $350,000 and obviously "not sold" at the Kruse Labor Day auction. Appears that the Ebay listing of $450,000 only attracted a single offer of $5,000.