hchris
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Posts posted by hchris
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What makes you think its a vacuum leak ? Sounds more like a sticking throttle or linkage if you can tap the pedal and have the revs drop.
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Ball and trunnion is the name, there are a number of replacement sources. Most Mopars of the era used this type of joint.
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3 hours ago, seando said:
I can't seem to imagine how that works. I guess something changes as your going up the hill.
The fitting has an inbuilt venturi fed by the hole which you have blanked off. The venturi is designed to create an even bigger (atmospheric) pressure drop for the vacuum source at the top of the inner tank, which in turn will lessen the effect of manifold vacuum drop as you open the throttle; particularly helpful if you have a long uphill drag.
Of course this is really only beneficial when you have a inlet manifold source of vacuum, its therefore unnecessary with an oil pump vacuum source which increases vacuum with oil pump (engine) rpm.
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Well that would be wonderful ?
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Hmm, anyone have a copy that can scan relevant pages ?
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Yes the vacuum force is all about throttle position, the more you open the throttle the less vacuum you have, so there is a contradiction here in engine efficiency with these systems, the amount of fuel you have stored in the vac tank gets less and less the wider you open the throttle.
Giving it more gas to get up the hill will only make matters worse.
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4 hours ago, Tinindian said:
This was a Stewart Werner which became Warner and was identified as a Kingston. Good reading at any rate.
Yes and thanks, much of the input of this particular topic was mine, based on my own experiences, and that`s all, no reference material at all.
But I was looking to find something a little more formal in terms of literature, illustrations settings etc. in the hope that I could put together an article based on fact rather than our random fixes.
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Well it seems the move to change vacuum source from manifold to oil pump came fairly late in the evolution of vac units, so I can only guess this was a means of overcoming loss of vacuum with large throttle opening. It wasn't much later that mechanical fuel pumps became the norm and the problem disappeared.
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On 03/03/2018 at 10:09 AM, seando said:
I wonder what yellow is? It is a straight pin hole to the vac line from manifold. I have it capped off.
All quiet here so I assume everything is fine, still scratching my head re the unidentified "yellow" port in an earlier thread and then I came across these items, courtesy of the Dodge Brothers newsletter some years back (a gold mine of information for Dodge owners).
So its purpose in life is to increase the vacuum force (booster). This enables a greater pulling power for fuel from the rear tank and is particularly helpful for high throttle openings when going uphill etc. which reduces the risk of running out of fuel in the reservoir under such conditions.
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Does any one have any reliable info, illustrations, data etc. on Kingston vac units, I can find all the information in the world for Stewart units, but there appears to be a huge vacuum (pun intended) on Kingston material.
Thanks in advance.
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Absolutey yes to a regulator, typically a vac system relied on 0.5 to 1.0 psi head of pressureto the carb, any more than that and you risk flooding as the float struggles to hold against the excess in pressure.
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Well done, your perseverance paid off and you have given others a unique insight into the black art of vacuum tanks.
Now go find a big hill and see if you can make it to the top without running out of gas, if you can achieve that go home sit down and have a beer or two. ??
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6 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:
Is this the yellow port - an air vent to outer tank?
Yes it would appear to be a metered orifice serving as a vent, might be worth taking out the blank.
2 hours ago, frank29u said:it may be trial and error to find the "sweet" spot on the shaft for cork location.
i agree, trial and error to get the floats in the right spot is probably the answer, obviously someone else has had a fiddle with these in the past
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OK, having read your most recent post it would appear that the inner tank is not dumping and the reservoir is flooding to the point that fuel is being sucked back through the manifold line.
If the inner tank cant dump it will continue to fill until the fuel level reaches the top of that stand pipe, in the inner tank, then spill over into the reservoir, at some point if the inner tank level keeps rising it will be drawn back into the manifold through the suction line.
The outer tank (reservoir) must be open to atmosphere, thats why the filler port is in the top of it, the only piece subject to vacuum is the inner tank. If the reservoir is full to the brim then there is no airspace in there, hence probably why you observe fuel is only trickling to the filter
Cant help you with the yellow port, but I wonder if its also a vent ??
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My first thoughts are the carb float/needle mechanism are not shutting off and the carb is flooding, if so this would give you the fouled plugs so i would hold off buying new ones.
Possibly this is linked to the fiddling with the vac tank, perhaps now that its working more efficiently you might have a greater head of fuel in the tank, or the flapper valve is not opening and flooding the reservoir. Remove the inner tank and see how much fuel is in the reservoir, I would expect there should only be an inch or two of fuel inside if things are working properly.
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Sadly there does`nt appear to be many illustrations of the Kingston unit, nevertheless excellent presentation on this one.
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1 hour ago, seando said:
definitely floating, but i thought the same thing. If they didn't float they wouldn't open the flapper to dump fuel. But that is why I pondered adding the washers for counter weight in case the cork's mass had deteriorated over time.
I have got it to the point where it will dump, slow trickle and stop releasing fuel. Then with more fuel, dump again, slow trickle and stop. I am not sure if the trickle is self induced from the dump splashback, or the cork raising and closing the flapper. Is it slightly gradual given the level drops and the cork rises, or is it supposed to be a sudden and abrupt stoppage?
Yeah I have to agree that the floats look pretty ordinary and perhaps they don`t have enough lift/weight to hold the flapper shut tight, worth a try to add a small weight and see if it makes a difference. One other thought I had, is it possible the corks are slipping on the shaft rather than lifting it ??
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6 hours ago, ply33 said:
Which is why I've asked twice on this thread if his DeSoto used the same mechanism as Plymouth for getting a vacuum source. On the Plymouth of that era the vacuum for the fuel pump is provided by a tap off the suction side of the oil pump. So the faster the engine is turning over the more vacuum you have, totally independent of carburetor throttle position or engine load. So far, if that question has been answered I haven't seen it.
There was that reasoning of constant vacuum with the oil pump source, as to why others relied on manifold vacuum I don,t know but certainly this method was the most popular.
Was there the potential to dilute the oil with fuel if a malfunction occurred ? I don`t know.
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The outer tank is not subjected to vacuum at any time, it simply serves as a reservoir for the inner tank to dump into. This is quite different to the Stewart design where the whole of the container is subject to vacuum and needs to be perfectly sealed to function.
The Kingston has an inner tank and this is the only area subject to vacuum and only when the flapper valve is closed. The vac line (from manifold or oil pump depending on make) is connected directly to the inner tank and causes fuel to be drawn in, under vacuum whilst the flapper is closed. As the fuel level rises in the inner tank a float (connected by linkage to the flapper) rises to a given point, the flapper is opened, fuel is dumped to the outer tank (reservoir) and vacuum lost, as the inner fuel level drops, the float moves to close the flapper and vacuum is resumed drawing in more fuel; this cycle is continually repeated in order to maintain a head of fuel in the outer tank (reservoir) which then gravity feeds to the carb.
I much prefer the Kingston design over the Stewart as its far less complex, with none of springs and levers and cast upper lid that give so much grief on the Stewart.
But for sure, the down side to all of the vacuum systems is diminishing vacuum as the throttle is opened, some manufacturers designed various boosters or enlarged reservoir tanks to offset this problem, but if the hill is big enough don`t be surprised if the engine quits.
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No, definitely no gasket between the two flapper faces.
I would be inclined to put it back together, refit and test drive, see how you go.
Put some fuel in the outer tank first, just to get the engine running, and then see whether it can keep up
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Well done and an excellent portrayal of what I was trying to describe.
Its crucial that the flapper valve seals as you can see, without proper sealing you will have neither vacuum action or fuel input. Even a minor leak at the valve will cause fuel in the inner tank to be depleted faster than vacuum action can replace it, which would explain that whilst it may idle well, take it out on the road and the demands will outstrip supply, and of course once the engine stops so does the vacuum.
So from what I am seeing your problem is somewhere in that valve/linkage mechanism, not ignoring the fact that some wear and tear on the links which hold the valve may be causing it to seat askew and not seating properly.
Keep up the good work, you are not only fixing your own problem but providing valuable information for others out there on what is becoming a lost art in vac tank analysis.
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Oh and by the way its a Kingston brand vac pump that you have, not Stewart Warner, hence the difference in construction of the internals.
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Yes the float is cork.
Have you removed the inner tank and filled it as I explained, will it hold fuel until the float rises and opens the flapper valve ?
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