Gran Sport H2 option

[65VerdeGS]

I have some questions about the H2 The "Ride and Handling" option package first offered in 1965.  I read that this option consisted of stiffer springs and faster steering.  The H2 springs are said to have made the car ride an inch or so lower.

 

Did this option include any other things, such a different shocks, or thicker front sway bar?

 

I've heard that while "most" Gran Sports came with the H2 option, this wasn't always the case.  Customers ordering a new Riviera would have to check the H2 option box, perhaps after the salesman suggested it.  This option wasn't so expensive, at about $35.  But, because of the extra cost it would be possible for a Gran Sport to NOT have the H2 option fitted.

 

So, my questions are:

 

1. How can I determine whether my '65 Riv Gran Sport came from the factory with the H2 option?  
2. Is it true that most Gran Sports came with the H2 package?
3. Do we know the percentage of Gran Sports were not fitted with the H2 option?
4. Finally, was it possible for a non-GS Riviera to be ordered with the H2 option?  Do we know how many non-GS '65 Rivs came with H2?

 

 

[Rivman]

I can answer a couple of your questions, but not all of them, possibly someone else will respond.

 

From the ROA website, "ID a Gran Sport"

 

The Ride and Handling package was commonly used on the Gran Sport, but was a separate option. The modified steering improved the turning ratio from the standard 17 ½:1 (approximately 3 ¼ turns) to a 15:1 ratio ( approximately 2 ½ turns). The springs were stiffer and caused the car to sit an inch lower. The shocks were firmer, causing different weight distribution. Although it has been suspected that the front and rear stabilizer bars and bushings may have been stiffer, this cannot be confirmed. Since most cars have by now received new springs and shocks the handling is based on the replacement parts.

 

I got with Tom M about my GS and found it was NOT ordered with the H2 option.

 

1. I found the paper tag on two of my springs, one front and one rear, and was able to determine from that the springs on mine were not the HD springs. There were letters, larger, that made it easy for them to know which spring to install at the factory, and a part number, so it was fairly easy to figure it out. Another way is to count the "turns" of your steering wheel. Mine turns approximately 3 1/2 turns stop to stop, and I the H2 optioned cars total turns is 2 1/2 turns stop to stop, as stated above.

 

2. Mine did not.

 

3. Not sure that would be recorded by GS and non-GS?

 

4. Yes.

 

I looked at Darwin's "Options not Included" article for '65 and there is no mention of how many H2 packages were installed.

[RivNut]

#3:    Everyone needs to remember that one of the many options that could be added to any Riviera was code #A9 - Gran Sport. Gran Sport is not a separate model, it's an option just like code #H2 - Handling package.  It doesn't show up in the VIN, nor does it show up on the Fisher Data Plate. If you have the original paperwork,  it would tell you.   Asking how many Gran Sports came with the H2 option is somewhat akin to asking how many cars equipped with white side wall tires came equipped with AM-FM radios. 

 

Springs and shocks can be swapped out. Paper tags on springs can disappear, but the chances of a steering box being replaced would be considerably less.  Count the number of turn s as Randall suggests and you'll probably be able to answer your own question.

[1965rivgs]

On 11/17/2017 at 6:55 PM, 65VerdeGS said:

I have some questions about the H2 The "Ride and Handling" option package first offered in 1965.  I read that this option consisted of stiffer springs and faster steering.  The H2 springs are said to have made the car ride an inch or so lower.

 

Did this option include any other things, such a different shocks, or thicker front sway bar?

 

I've heard that while "most" Gran Sports came with the H2 option, this wasn't always the case.  Customers ordering a new Riviera would have to check the H2 option box, perhaps after the salesman suggested it.  This option wasn't so expensive, at about $35.  But, because of the extra cost it would be possible for a Gran Sport to NOT have the H2 option fitted.

 

So, my questions are:

 

1. How can I determine whether my '65 Riv Gran Sport came from the factory with the H2 option?  
2. Is it true that most Gran Sports came with the H2 package?
3. Do we know the percentage of Gran Sports were not fitted with the H2 option?
4. Finally, was it possible for a non-GS Riviera to be ordered with the H2 option?  Do we know how many non-GS '65 Rivs came with H2?

 

 

Hi Alex,

 

  The H2 option was available on any `65 Riv. However, the H2 option was specifically encouraged in sales literature and marketing in conjunction with the A9 Gran Sport option so it could be argued that most, if not all, buyers who chose the H2 option also chose the A9 option. Central to the answers to your questions is how many H2 cars would have been ordered which were not Gran Sports? I suspect, at most, only a couple hundred. There are no figures which specifically connect the H2 cars with non-GS cars so a couple hundred Non GS H2 cars is a guesstimate.

 

  Buick built 3355 A9 Gran Sport Rivs and 2859 H2 optioned `65 Rivs. If we assume 200 cars equipped with the H2 option were NOT A9 Gran Sport cars then simple arithmetic tells us approximately 2659 of the 3355 A9 Gran Sport cars were equipped with the H2 option. Obviously this is a guesstimate, but if the assumption that only a couple hundred non-GS buyers chose the H2 option is close, that equates to a definite majority of `65 Gran Sports cars were built with the H2 option.

 

  The H2 option consisted of heavy duty springs (Buick called them "super duty" in the parts books), heavy duty shocks (which I dont think has anything to do with weight distribution but I`m not a chassis engineer ?), the quick ratio steering box and firmer rubber bushings in the rear track bar. The front sway bar and bushings were unchanged.

 

  The rear track bar bushings look like a wagon wheel with as much empty space as rubber. This was done to give the rear axle some compliance or "give" to provide a smooth transition thru suspension transitions. The GS bushings have less "empty space", so are "heavy duty", as compared to the standard bushings but still provide for some compliance.

 

  The police option for the earlier full size Wildcat models, which utilized the same basic suspension setup, was equipped with SOLID rubber bushings in the track bar.

 

    I have researched and confirmed the above info re the track bar bushings thru several decades of obtaining NOS examples of the track bar bushings/bars.

 

  Regarding the steering boxes, it has been my experience the standard steering box produces 3 and 7/8ths turns lock to lock and the quick ratio H2 steering box is one less turn or about 2 and 7/8ths turns lock to lock. Obviously this can vary as there is much going on after the steering box but this has been my experience with stock wheels/tires and standard suspension components

 

  Hope this helps Alex,

 

  Tom Mooney   

[65VerdeGS]

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for the info on H2 – I always enjoy reading your informative posts!

 

After 52 years I doubt I’ll find any stickers on my car’s springs to identify whether these are H2 springs or not.  I do have a ’65 Buick Master Parts Catalog, so may be able to trace back the part number if this is stamped on the springs.  But, where would I look on the springs to find their part number?

 

I’m almost certain that my car still has its original springs.  I bought the car back in early 1983.  The car still had its original paint and interior and had not been restored in any way.

 

Soon after I bought my GS I joined the ROA and met the late Leonard Scott.  He was extremely knowledgeable about our cars.  He advised me against replacing the rear springs in my car (the rear was ‘sagging’) because reproduction springs available at the time did not duplicate the H2 springs, so the car’s ride would be adversely affected.  Leonard advised me to fabricate a spacer to put in each rear spring pocket to increase rear ride height, or to use air shocks.  I did both.  I only inflate the air shocks when carrying rear passengers and/or heavy loads.

 

This brings up the question: Are the H2 springs being reproduced today?  Which vendor?  Do the repro springs correctly duplicate the ride characteristics of the originals?

 

The steering box in my car is 3 turns lock-to-lock. However, it is a replacement, as the original developed a leak.  Instead of rebuilding the original it was replaced with a variable-ratio Saginaw box from a later ‘60’s GM car. I got the replacement box in a wrecking yard and remember this route being cheaper and faster than having the original box rebuilt.

 

I see you’ve quoted production number for the H2 option.  Where did you get these from?  Is there a breakdown of how many 1965 Rivieras were built with each option? I gather the numbers available may not indicate combinations of options (e.g. A/C with Power Windows), or do they?  Lastly, is there a breakdown of how many cars were built in the exterior and interior trim/colour options?

 

 

 

 

[1965rivgs]

Hi Alex,

  The stickers are wrapped around the "wire" of the spring on the sides. If you are fortunate look up into the spring pocket on the fronts and you may find one. The stickers are yellow and in addition to the GM part number there will also be a 2 character alpha code which is the code which appears on the build sheet and the info the assembly line workers referenced to choose the correct spring.

  Leonard`s advice was good as the only replacement springs available back in the day were Moogs and were actually calibrated for the Electra models but fit the Rivieras.

  Not sure which vendors are supplying the correct springs, others on this forum would know as I recall quite a few folks asking and installing replacement springs. This would be a good question for a new thread.

  The numbers I quoted are from a report called The Daily Car Report which was generated thru the model year on a daily basis. The version I have is for the last day of the year and is cumulative. Darwin Falk`s series of articles in The Riview called Options Not Included is basically a summation of these statistics from this report for each year. Most of the info is for single option production but there are some combinations none of which are very interesting. There are production figures for each individual color and interior but not for combinations of exterior and interior.

  Tom

[RivNut]

Call the folks at Coil Spring Specialties in Marysville, KS.  From what I've gathered,  they make what's called a "Gran Sport" spring.  I'm sure they're aware of the H2 designation as well.   

[Rivman]

I was able to find the tags on mine, even at 52 years, and 130K miles. I found one on each of the right front and the right rear, pictures below ...

 

 

 

 

 

There are several vendors that make them for the H2 option, I haven't bought any so don't know if any are good or bad, but they are out there.

 

There is a set advertised on ebay by a member of his forum, dr914 I believe, here is a link to those ...

 

Buick Riviera GS factory reproduction spring set

[KongaMan]

IMHO, rather than buy a pre-made "generic" spring set, have one made to fit your car.  CSS will do this: send them an old spring, tell them what spring rate you want, and tell them what ride height you want relative to the old spring (e.g. 1" lower).  They say they can give you a set of springs that will be within 1/4" or your target height.

 

I've mentioned this before, but you can get front springs from Autozone for $40 ($32 if you wait for one of their 20% off coupons).  I put a set on and they fixed the drooping front tout de suite.  I haven't driven them enough to have a long-term evaluation, but for $32...  And they're made in the USA.

[1965rivgs]

8 hours ago, KongaMan said:

IMHO, rather than buy a pre-made "generic" spring set, have one made to fit your car.  CSS will do this: send them an old spring, tell them what spring rate you want, and tell them what ride height you want relative to the old spring (e.g. 1" lower).  They say they can give you a set of springs that will be within 1/4" or your target height.

 

I've mentioned this before, but you can get front springs from Autozone for $40 ($32 if you wait for one of their 20% off coupons).  I put a set on and they fixed the drooping front tout de suite.  I haven't driven them enough to have a long-term evaluation, but for $32...  And they're made in the USA.

Not picking on any particular vendor but is Coil Spring Specialties actually making springs? Or are they matching spring specs to the closest available springs which are already on the market? If the later is correct, and I was left with the impression years ago that this is correct, then they are supplying "generic" springs by simply doing the engineering/math and matching specs to available springs. I assume the markup on the springs is pretty healthy? Knowledge is power...and profitable!

I am not a chassis engineer but years ago I placed a call to the engineering dept at Moog and spoke to a chassis engineer. I recall spring rate and loaded height is a function of wire diameter, number of coils and free standing height....I may be missing a variable? With this info finding the spring of your choice is simply math and a matter of matching an already available spring assuming one is available.

Eaton spring claims to have the engineering data for the old springs and I would assume a large company with their resources would be able to actually manufacture springs if needed but I have no experience with this vendor.

  Tom

[KongaMan]

5 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Not picking on any particular vendor but is Coil Spring Specialties actually making springs? Or are they matching spring specs to the closest available springs which are already on the market? If the later is correct, and I was left with the impression years ago that this is correct, then they are supplying "generic" springs by simply doing the engineering/math and matching specs to available springs. I assume the markup on the springs is pretty healthy? Knowledge is power...and profitable!

 

My understanding is that they make the springs.  According to the explanation I got, they know the specified load (rear, front with AC, etc.) for a particular application.  Armed with this info, they take the spring that you send them and calculate the rate of your spring.  Using that, they can calculate the specs for the new spring.

 

Example: You send a spring with an 18" free height and a request for replacements that are 1" higher and stiffer than stock.  The working load for this spring is 1200 lb.  With a load of 1200 lb. applied, the spring compresses 4".  That gives a spring rate of 300 lb/in (i.e. your springs are shot).  Say the stock spring rate is 400 lb/in and the heavy-duty spring rate is 500 lb/in.  So, you need a 500 lb/in spring which will compress to 15" under a 1200 lb load. 1200 lb will compress that spring 2.4".  Some quick ciphering says that's a free height of 17.4".  Voila!

[65VerdeGS]

On 11/22/2017 at 3:47 PM, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Alex,

  The stickers are wrapped around the "wire" of the spring on the sides. If you are fortunate look up into the spring pocket on the fronts and you may find one. The stickers are yellow and in addition to the GM part number there will also be a 2 character alpha code which is the code which appears on the build sheet and the info the assembly line workers referenced to choose the correct spring.

  Leonard`s advice was good as the only replacement springs available back in the day were Moogs and were actually calibrated for the Electra models but fit the Rivieras.

  Not sure which vendors are supplying the correct springs, others on this forum would know as I recall quite a few folks asking and installing replacement springs. This would be a good question for a new thread.

  The numbers I quoted are from a report called The Daily Car Report which was generated thru the model year on a daily basis. The version I have is for the last day of the year and is cumulative. Darwin Falk`s series of articles in The Riview called Options Not Included is basically a summation of these statistics from this report for each year. Most of the info is for single option production but there are some combinations none of which are very interesting. There are production figures for each individual color and interior but not for combinations of exterior and interior.

  Tom

 

Thanks for the info, guys!

 

I'll have to crawl under my car to see if those paper tags might still be on my springs after all these years.

 

Can Tom or anyone confirm what the ride height for an H2 equipped car was when new?  How did this compare to the ride height of the standard Riviera?  I've heard that the H2 option cars ride about an inch lower.  I measured my car's ride height and the dimensions are 24" front, and 22.5" rear.  This measurement was taken from the ground at the wheel center line up to the underside of the wheel opening.  Not sure if that's how the ride height is supposed to be measured - is it?

 

Tom also mentioned the Daily Car Reports.  Is these posted somewhere?  How did you get a copy of these reports?  What sort of statistical data on options and colors (trim and paint) do they reveal?  Has someone compiled the Daily Car Report info to create tables or charts of what was produced throughout the model year 1965 by month, and a summary of factory-installed options for the entire year?

 

Always learning interesting things here!

[KongaMan]

Ride height as measured from the ground can vary quite a bit depending on the tires used.  That's why some folks suggest measuring from the center of the hub instead if you're trying gauge whether the suspension has drooped over the years.  The manual also has some measurements to be taken using the front suspension parts, but it's kind of a PITA to get under there..

 

FWIW, my car (standard springs) measures 26" in the front and 24" in the back with 215/75R15s.  No, I don't know the distance from the hub.

[Seafoam65]

                     How much fuel is in the tank vastly affects the rear ride height. I believe that the measurement should be taken with the tank at

half full but I'm not certain of that. My car drops 2 inches in the rear when empty versus full on the gas tank.

[1965rivgs]

On 11/30/2017 at 2:04 PM, 65VerdeGS said:

 

Thanks for the info, guys!

 

I'll have to crawl under my car to see if those paper tags might still be on my springs after all these years.

 

Can Tom or anyone confirm what the ride height for an H2 equipped car was when new?  How did this compare to the ride height of the standard Riviera?  I've heard that the H2 option cars ride about an inch lower.  I measured my car's ride height and the dimensions are 24" front, and 22.5" rear.  This measurement was taken from the ground at the wheel center line up to the underside of the wheel opening.  Not sure if that's how the ride height is supposed to be measured - is it?

 

Tom also mentioned the Daily Car Reports.  Is these posted somewhere?  How did you get a copy of these reports?  What sort of statistical data on options and colors (trim and paint) do they reveal?  Has someone compiled the Daily Car Report info to create tables or charts of what was produced throughout the model year 1965 by month, and a summary of factory-installed options for the entire year?

 

Always learning interesting things here!

Hi Alex,

  The ride height specs and the locations to measure same are in the shop manual. You are correct, the H2 option cars were 1 inch lower than the standard Riv.

  I found the Daily Car Reports at the Sloan Museum in Flint many years ago. The reports are copyrighted so I believe that means they are not to be reproduced without permission. I purchased my copies and assume The Sloan still sells them to whoever is interested. I only have the report from the end of year and not on a monthly or daily basis thruout the build year. As I stated in a previous post, the individual paint colors and trim colors are represented but not any combinations. The same holds true for each individual option with the exception of some option combinations that are pretty boring and I`m sure accumulated to aid manufacturing or perhaps marketing.

  Most of the statistics regarding exterior color production were published in the Evans Clagget Riv Club newsletters so the info has been out there since before the ROA was established.

  Tom

[65VerdeGS]

Thanks Tom,

 

I didn't realize the ride height specs were in the Shop Manual.  I'll take a look at this tonight.

 

I'll have to paw through my copies of The Riview (I have most of them as I joined in 1985) to see if some of the Daily Car Report info has been published there.  I've never seen the Evans Clagget Riv Club newsletters, which I believe pre-dated the creation of the ROA by Ray Knott, yes?

 

In the fog of the past I recall hearing that "WARD'S AUTOMOTIVE YEARBOOK" (an industry publication still being produced) wouild report out on numbers of options sold for each car line.  Are you familiar with this publication?  Have you seen the 1965 Edition?  And, did Ward's simply reproduce the info from the Daily Car Reports?

 

[NC1968Riviera]

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 5:37 PM, 1965rivgs said:

ride height and the dimensions are 24" front, and 22.5" rear

The ride height on my 68 was 28" on the front and 26" on the rear. I had an Air Lift kit installed in the rear coils and now the front and rear are both sitting @ 28" measured from the ground, through the centerline of the wheels to the lip of the wheel opening. I posted a picture earlier but here it is again. Top picture is car rear end lifted 2" and the bottom picture is the car prior to installation of Air Lift system.

 

I opted for this kit after the HD rated coil springs I had made for the car turned out to be 2" shorter than those that are currently installed on the car. Despite the fact that I had the springs made for the Heavy Duty option, I did not trust that these shorter springs would actually raise the rear of the car the 2" I wanted. Anybody need some new 16" tall rear coil springs? I'll make you a good deal. PM me if interested.

Edited December 5, 2017 by NCRiviera (see edit history)