SwedeDownUnderR63

Flowkooler water pump in none-AC + questions on what more to replace when doing timing chain

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18 minutes ago, retiredmechanic74 said:

It seems to me that I ran into that problem once. The parts co. gave me the wrong pump (non A/C) and when I got to the point of installing the pulley it scraped??? So many years ago how time fly's. He might want to check the length of the shaft just in case.   

If you had a clearance problem, the parts house probably gave you a pump for the wrong year engine.  #15 On Russ Martin's "15 most common mistakes....." is using the wrong water pump.....  

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1 hour ago, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

 

Some feedback:

This has been interesting although somewhat time consuming. Time to put the parts back. Thanks for all feedback.

 

BTW does anyone have a two groove pulley for the alternator to sell?

 

head bolts.png

 

 

I have a couple of 2 groove pulleys, I would be willing to sell one. Let me know if interested.

 

Bill

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The bolt that you have circled IS the correct bolt your looking for. See the bolt to the left the shoulder is shorter under the head of the bolt. The two bolts to the right are for an aluminum alternator bracket WITHOUT A/C. They are 1/2" lomger.

Another diff. in an A/C, non A/C pump besides the 3 & 5 vane impeller is the A/C pump has a LARGER bearing on the end to take the added pressure required by the two belts. An A/C pump has a bearing housing diameter, behind the pulley mounting hub, of 2.080". Whereas the NON A/C pump has a bearing housing diameter of 1.575". A non A/C pump with the smaller bearing will not last too long being used in an A/C application.

The reason the crank gear has the 9 keyway  sprocket is because ANY new cam that's installed, especially aftermarket, should be "Degreed" in.

Many are off. This is WAY MORE than most on this site can comprehend. Just set it "Straight" up as you will probably not see or feel any diff. in the way your stocker type engine will run.

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1 hour ago, telriv said:

The bolt that you have circled IS the correct bolt your looking for. See the bolt to the left the shoulder is shorter under the head of the bolt. The two bolts to the right are for an aluminum alternator bracket WITHOUT A/C. They are 1/2" lomger.

Another diff. in an A/C, non A/C pump besides the 3 & 5 vane impeller is the A/C pump has a LARGER bearing on the end to take the added pressure required by the two belts. An A/C pump has a bearing housing diameter, behind the pulley mounting hub, of 2.080". Whereas the NON A/C pump has a bearing housing diameter of 1.575". A non A/C pump with the smaller bearing will not last too long being used in an A/C application.

The reason the crank gear has the 9 keyway  sprocket is because ANY new cam that's installed, especially aftermarket, should be "Degreed" in.

Many are off. This is WAY MORE than most on this site can comprehend. Just set it "Straight" up as you will probably not see or feel any diff. in the way your stocker type engine will run.

 

The bolt I have has the same kind of head as the one in the picture and looks similar in shape and size in regard to the different parts of the bolt (hard to exactly judge as I don't have the measurements) so I still think I have the correct bolt already. I have attached a picture of the A/C and no A/C alternator brackets where the only difference seems to be that the A/C has 2 extra parts on the top for mounting of the A/C.

 

Nice to know about the water pump. I bought a FlowKooler for A/C so I should be fine.

 

Yes, I will set the crank gear straight up. I got confused by it having 2x "0"', one inner and one outer but it is now clear. Don't think I have any mechanical blood in me so this car will stay stock in regards to the engine.

 

Thanks.

/Jan

Both alternator brackets.jpeg

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Measure the hub diameter on the pump. I'm pretty sure Flowcooler has the larger bearing. If not DON'T use it. Send it back & get the correct pump!!

Can' t you see the diff. in the bolt lengths??? You DON'T need measurements. JUST YOUR EYES!!!!  The aluminum bracket was NOT used on Rivs just most full size cars & the Skylark GS.

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On 2/14/2018 at 6:13 PM, RivNut said:

I'll take a look tomorrow and send you a PM.

I looked but didn't find a double grooved alternator pulley. Sorry.

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Progress report and further questions.

The FlowKooler water pump for A/C that I bought (they only sell for A/C) do have a bearing housing diameter, behind the pulley mounting hub, of ~2.080 thus definitely for A/C.

The timing chain, water pump, the new timing chain cover, water manifold  and alternator/power steering brackets are in place.

I am somewhat confused and disappointed in the stainless bolt kit for a 401 that I got from Alloy Boltz. All bolts have been a few mm shorter then the “originals?” that was in place before. This with adding the washer that wasn’t there before means that each bolt have 4-5 mm (~1/8 – 3/16”) less meat to fasten it with. I decided to only use those bolts on the water pump and the timing chain cover (except for the bolt that also holds the bracket for the alternator for which I used the longer original) and this only as the old ones where so bad. Not happy but to much pain to do anything about it as I am so far from the seller.

One issue was that it was impossible to fit the timing chain cover with the new front oil pan gasket. Couldn’t get the timing chain cover down enough with the gasket in place. I couldn’t even get it to fit while cutting the gasket thickness in half so I had to manufacture a special gasket. There is a risk for an oil leak here that I need to fix later this year or early next with the engine out, so I can fit a new complete oil pan gasket (and renovate the oil pump).

Harmonic Balancer question

Time to go for the harmonic balancer. I have seen some advice on this before such as increment the torque in 25 foot lbs steps until reaching 220. There has also been advice to use red Loctite so I thought that it might be best to take it up to say just below 200, take the bolt out, put on the Loctite and take it up to the spec. Is that the way to go for us that isn’t made of muscle of steel or should I put the Loctite on initially and hope that I can torque it up all the way before it cures? Is there anything else to think about here or is it just a slow and painful experience? I do have the Harmonic Balancer Wrench 906007 from Summit Racing that I only had to slightly modify to use it for the removal and it is also to be used to also put it back unless there are better suggestions.

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                            You don't need Loctite, that's why the torque is set at 220. No need for increments, just torque the bolt to 220 and you are done......

that's how Buick did it at the factory. You will need to remove the  flywheel cover and back up the teeth on the flywheel with a flywheel wrench in order

to get to 220........the crank will start turning over long before you get that high on the torque without backup.

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3 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

                            You don't need Loctite, that's why the torque is set at 220. No need for increments, just torque the bolt to 220 and you are done......

that's how Buick did it at the factory. You will need to remove the  flywheel cover and back up the teeth on the flywheel with a flywheel wrench in order

to get to 220........the crank will start turning over long before you get that high on the torque without backup.

Hi Winston,

thanks for the info on the torque/Loctite.

I thought that the harmonic balance wrench, https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/sme-906007/overview/

was enough to keep the crank not turning as it did when I removed it?

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44 minutes ago, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

Hi Winston,

thanks for the info on the torque/Loctite.

I thought that the harmonic balance wrench, https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/sme-906007/overview/

was enough to keep the crank not turning as it did when I removed it?

                Yes, if you have a wrench that fits on the balancer and acts as a backup, that would work as well. I haven't seen that tool.....

sounds like a good idea. 

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2 hours ago, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

Progress report and further questions.

 

The FlowKooler water pump for A/C that I bought (they only sell for A/C) do have a bearing housing diameter, behind the pulley mounting hub, of ~2.080 thus definitely for A/C.

 

The timing chain, water pump, the new timing chain cover, water manifold  and alternator/power steering brackets are in place.

 

I am somewhat confused and disappointed in the stainless bolt kit for a 401 that I got from Alloy Boltz. All bolts have been a few mm shorter then the “originals?” that was in place before. This with adding the washer that wasn’t there before means that each bolt have 4-5 mm (~1/8 – 3/16”) less meat to fasten it with. I decided to only use those bolts on the water pump and the timing chain cover (except for the bolt that also holds the bracket for the alternator for which I used the longer original) and this only as the old ones where so bad. Not happy but to much pain to do anything about it as I am so far from the seller.

 

One issue was that it was impossible to fit the timing chain cover with the new front oil pan gasket. Couldn’t get the timing chain cover down enough with the gasket in place. I couldn’t even get it to fit while cutting the gasket thickness in half so I had to manufacture a special gasket. There is a risk for an oil leak here that I need to fix later this year or early next with the engine out, so I can fit a new complete oil pan gasket (and renovate the oil pump).

 

Harmonic Balancer question

Time to go for the harmonic balancer. I have seen some advice on this before such as increment the torque in 25 foot lbs steps until reaching 220. There has also been advice to use red Loctite so I thought that it might be best to take it up to say just below 200, take the bolt out, put on the Loctite and take it up to the spec. Is that the way to go for us that isn’t made of muscle of steel or should I put the Loctite on initially and hope that I can torque it up all the way before it cures? Is there anything else to think about here or is it just a slow and painful experience? I do have the Harmonic Balancer Wrench 906007 from Summit Racing that I only had to slightly modify to use it for the removal and it is also to be used to also put it back unless there are better suggestions.

 

DO NOT use Loctite!!  If you have to take it apart again sometime down the road you will find out why not to use loctite. 

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On 22/02/2018 at 4:56 AM, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

 

I thought that the harmonic balance wrench, https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/sme-906007/overview/

was enough to keep the crank not turning as it did when I removed it?

 

Hi Jan, I was lucky enough to borrow a tension wrench from the civil engineering place next to where my timber yard is. They have lots of trucks and earthmoving equipment and BIG TOOLS with 3/4 drive sockets.

 

I used a piece of timber under the crank pulley when tightening it up. It tried to lift up the car but stopped it from turning while we applied 220 foot pounds. I think I used a piece of 2 inch water pipe to give me more leverage too on the wrench.

hope it works.

Rodney

 

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55 minutes ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

 

Hi Jan, I was lucky enough to borrow a tension wrench from the civil engineering place next to where my timber yard is. They have lots of trucks and earthmoving equipment and BIG TOOLS with 3/4 drive sockets.

 

I used a piece of timber under the crank pulley when tightening it up. It tried to lift up the car but stopped it from turning while we applied 220 foot pounds. I think I used a piece of 2 inch water pipe to give me more leverage too on the wrench.

hope it works.

Rodney

 

Hi Rodney,

Thanks, the harmonic balancer got in place yesterday evening. I also used a pipe to get more leverage and we “fixed” a special extension to the harmonic balance wrench to the floor to get it completely still. The feeling I got from the click at 220 foot pounds was somewhat liberating.

I have started to put everything else back and should be finished in the weekend. My wife had to do some welding first as there were rust in the metal wall between the battery and the radiator.

I should be able to start my car this weekend, hopefully without any issue.

Jan

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On 2/21/2018 at 3:00 PM, retiredmechanic74 said:

DO NOT use Loctite!!  If you have to take it apart again sometime down the road you will find out why not to use loctite. 

 

Anyone who didn't heed this warning and needs to remove the bolt can try applying heat to the bolt head (carefully) to soften the Locktite and then loosen.

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1 hour ago, EmTee said:

 

Anyone who didn't heed this warning and needs to remove the bolt can try applying heat to the bolt head (carefully) to soften the Locktite and then loosen.

That is true, but it takes at least 500 degrees to soften Loctite up which can lesson the strength of the bolt and melt the timingcover crank seal. So if you have to take that action plan on replacing the bolt and maybe the seal. 

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I'm also a so called "Retired" mecanic. I've NEVER had a problem loosening bolts when using "Red" Loctite. I don't know what the BIG problem is with using it PROPERLY.

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Finally finished. Took the car for a test drive today after filling it up with some automatic fluid (it has been standing still for a long time) and all seems OK. Thank you all for the advice (I didn't use any Loctite).

This was accomplished:

  • Timing chain (from Russ Martin), water pump for A/C (Flowkooler), timing chain cover (Russ) and fuel pump (Russ) has been changed.

  • The first step in converting it to A/C has been taken with an original A/C alternator bracket, 3 groove pulleys, the A/C fan and a fan clutch used for A/C. The shroud will be put in place when I got the correct radiator brackets for A/C. Next steps won’t be until late this year or early next when I will take out the engine, get all the vintage air parts needed, take out the old heating system and start to have fun internal in the car. I need to feed my hunger for driving the car first.

I am not certain yet if I need to change the radiator too, I assume that vintage air is less energy hungry than the original A/C and it might be possible that the Flowkooler is so more efficient that the radiator that I know the previous owner had rebuilt is good enough in this combination. I guess that I will see.

Two pictures of the engine after the operation and one of the special setup I had for the harmonic wrench. Note: I had spare bolts for the pulley to be put outside the harmonic balancer which was good as connecting the harmonic wrench to it did do havoc with the bolts.

 

Engine after change 1.jpeg

Engine after change 2.jpeg

Harmonic balancer wrench.jpeg

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