Guest crazytrain2 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) Last I wrote about the Teves Brake System in my 1989 Electra Park Ave Ultra I was bound and determined to replace it with a standard vacuum assist brake system. Reason being I had just replaced accumulator , when shortly there after I was visited upon by the "rock hard brake pedal" symptom. You all have to admit the replacement parts are quite expensive. Anyway I did prepare and purchase what I felt wer the correct components to swap ot the Electra Park Ave Teves System. The diameter of a Booster from a Riviera is to large and to mount flush against firewall the winshield wiper motor would intrude or have to be moved. A better choice (IMO) was that from an 89 Deville of non ABS Electra. Booster diameter is smaller but depth of unit is greater which mean replace brake pedal for increased stroke. As for the Master cylinder I think I would opt for one off of a 1995 LeSabre with 2 ports. I would Tee the exiting front brake lines to one port and use the second port for the singe (1/4") brake line which supplies the proportional/metering valve which in turn TEE's the brake fluid line(s) to the right and left rear wheels.I had actually purchased all of the parts / fittings and started the job when I hit a road block trying to get the 4 nuts off the Teves Unit from underneath the dashboard. I planned on getting a set of wobble extensions and a u-joint adaptor to get at the when out of the blue I got an email from someone whon had an accum., pump, pressure switch and motor for $40 delivered. Thanks to you guys I had confirmed motor was still good and tiny bit of fluid in pressure switch electrical gave me suspicions. So I bought it swapped pressure switches and back in business, for the time being.One final comment and question though 1) Those prssure switches are installed in the housing by Hercules. Ripped 3 lag bolts out of my vice which were sunk into 2 x 8's on top of 4 x 4's !!! 2) I somehow developed a leak in the hose leading from the resevoir to motor/pump. I fixed right away but seemed wierd to me becase I didn't invision any pressure build up there? Does pressure build up in that hose if you pump the brakes a few times after shutting engine and electrcals off?Sorry for the Book just thought I owed it to the site to share my Vast as well as Half Vast knowledge.Thanks again,mark Edited February 2, 2013 by crazytrain2 park ave ULTRA not CONVERTABLE - oops (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machiner 55 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Mark,Thank you. We all appreciate the outcomes. These kinds of posts add to the knowledge base here.John F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue90 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Mark, I've had the same problem with the brake pressure switch. I try to collect used parts from the junk yard; I've yet to find a brake system I could get that switch off. I have a complete Teves brake system, and a presure switch and pump, in my basement: I've tried everything and still can't break them loose. And I've also broken my vise off the work bench!Anyone know the secret? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmyk Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 When my pressure switch went south, I ended up using an impact wrench to get it off. I couldn't break it loose even with a two foot long breaker bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I went on e bay and bought the correct socket. Then I used a 1/2 breaker bar. Removed it while on the car. I did come across a Teves unit out at Gibson's that the pressure switch had a "Made in Germany" sticker on it. Put an adjustable wrench on it and it was loose enough to come off. Most every one I have seen are in tight, tight, tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Dave do you have a brand and part number for socket you use to remove the pressure switch? I would like to add it to Buick Reatta Tools - The Reatta Store I don't think I have on there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 It is made by Kent-Moore part #j 35804 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wws944 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 At the Reatta Rally last spring, someone mentioned that there are two versions of the pressure switch, due to the leaking problems of the original. And apparently you can tell the difference because the later version has a greenish tint to the metal hex portion. My car was built near the end of the 1990 production run and the pressure switch does have a greenish tint to it.Has anyone else heard this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 There is a used one on e bay for $18.xx [or best offer] w/free shipping. I believe I spent about $10-$15.00 for mine w/free freight. New is about $100.00 While I googled this just now I also was given the opportunity to click onto a Saab forum. They were talking about the removal of the pressure switch using this same tool. I wonder if their Teves pressure switch is just like the Reatta's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 In some ways it is nice to hear from someone that tried the swap to non ABS and found it was more difficult than fixing the ABS.The ABS pressure switch SHOULD unscrew without problems. It has straight threads and "O" ring to seal. A frozen pressure switch is an indication of what moisture in the brake fluid can do to the system. Brake experts say brake fluid absorbs 1-2% moisture per year, brake fluid is like antifreeze, it can mix with any amount of water.Think how much moisture a 20 year old car might have in the fluid. Flush your brake fluid every 2 years if you live in a humid area. You can go 5 if you live in Phoenix.Attached is a picture of a cheap plumbing tool/socket what will remove the pressure switch IF it is not frozen.The top tool is a 36mm socket that I had modified to clear the pump motor. The bottom two are different brands of the plumbing tool. 1 7/16 is the inch size you will find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazytrain2 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) I hear what your saying Barney but what strikes me as really wierd about that is the pressure switch threads are brass (or least appear to be. But I must agree with you I guess, nothing else makes any sence. Maybe I should've heated it with a torch ? JUST KIDDING lol. anyways heres a pic of that Kent More tool mentioned by Daves89. I would strongly resomend removing the pump, motor, accumulator , hydraulic line and resevoir hose befor attempting this though (based on my ex.) because you'll likely break that single attaching bolt if you try doing it in place. Edited February 2, 2013 by crazytrain2 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machiner 55 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) To all,Here's a socket that I had turned down in a lathe. The finished diameter is 1 and 3/4 inches. The socket is a made in USA, Allen brand 36mm, half inch drive, impact socket #35186. Purchased at Menards for around $20.00.John F. Edited February 2, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I couldn't find the Kent Moore socket to put in The Reatta Store. The only thing I could find was the socket shown below. I'm not sure if it would work. The dimensions seem to be about the same. Has anyone used this socket?Sunex 10212 ABS Pressure Switch Socket - Amazon.comSomeone should start reproducing tools like this that are no longer available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazytrain2 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Another potential source for pressure switch socket is referenced as Ford Tool No. 12-008 although I had no luck searching for it online.I came across it in an interesting 15 page TEVES Mark II Brake system break down at the link below. *NOTE:* The system they are showing at this link is from a Ford Granada and although similar there are subtle differences. Ronnie or Rawja feel free to blow up this post if you feel it may confuse Reatta owners.Ford Granada Braking system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I predict limited interest as pressure switches last a long time. As a matter of fact the only reason I bought one was because I had that main valve code issue about 2 years ago and thought I may have to swap out a number of pressure switches. [i didn't but I wanted to be sure I had the right tools]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I agree that the pressure switch is not in the same ballpark as accumulator failures. However, just this past week a Reatta owner in Indiana called with a Teves problem. Walked him thru the test steps one of which is to unplug the electrical connection on the pressure switch and check for dampness (as first suggested by Jim Finn) he later called me back to tell me he first found brake fluid dripping from the bottom of the pressure switch. When he unplugged the electrical connection there was more than a teaspoon that ran out. In this case just changing the accumulator would not solve the problem. He also noted that when he turned the ignition switch to run and listened for the pump motor to stop, it ran for more than a minute........ this would indicated (1) the pump was weak or (2) the pressure switch was not sensing the pressure correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wws944 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Roger: A suggestion for a sticky thread for 'Teves ABS Brake issues? Read this!'. Include the procedure for doing the brake test, and discuss the two most likely issues on the boost side - accumulator and pressure switch. On the ABS side, checking the sensors, especially the front ones, for bad leads. Also include how to read the codes from the ABS box and fluid bleeding tips. I bet just the above topics would resolve 95+% of the issues that folks are encountering. And brakes are such an important safety issue that all Reatta owners should be aware of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machiner 55 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) Someone should start reproducing tools like this that are no longer available.Ronnie,Several years back, about the time you started posting here, I offered to produce these sockets at cost plus shipping. I had two made. Kept and sold one to a poster here. I also posted that I would pull that post if someone could get a better price on a tool to remove the switch. Someone then posted a pic of those plumbers sockets that cost about two bux. Couldn't compete, and that was the end of it. I don't think those plumbers tools would help anyone with a switch that was stuck like others have posted here but maybe one like the one pictured below would. Anyway... There's a web site called Tool Source and it seems that they have the Kent Moore tool. Here is the link: ToolSource.comOne more thing. Someone mentioned using a torch to help with removal. That isn't such a bad idea. I have a little MAP Gas torch which I use all the time when a nut or bolt gets a little obstinate. It can be adjusted to a very small, fine point of flame. Judicious use and proper placement of the heat may very well loosen those threads on the housing that holds the switch. I've explained how/why this works before but it bears repeating. The way putting heat to a nut or threaded component works is that you're trying to expand only a portion of the threaded hole into which the bolt or screw (or in this case, switch) is threaded. You're not trying to heat the whole assembly. Just a small quadrant of it.The way I explained it before was to imagine a pie made of metal, with a coffee cup sized hole in the center. Now, you cut a wedge of pie out. Heat this wedge of pie briefly to make it expand. Now try to place this wedge back into the pie. Because it is now bigger than when you cut it out, it won't fit unless you spread the pie a little to make room for the larger section of pie. When you spread this pie to make the piece fit, you increase the inside diameter of the pie thereby making the hole bigger. This is what happens when you heat just a small section of the part that has a stuck/frozen bolt in it. If the hole in the metal pie had threads in it and there was a large bolt threaded in it the bolt would break free of the hole in the pie because the hole is bigger than the bolt. This is why adding heat precisely to one spot helps break free a bolt or screw or whatever. Now you've got to be quick and break the bolt free immediately after pulling the heat away. Otherwise, the heat spreads throughout and if everything expands at the same rate you just have a stuck part that is very hot. I haven't needed to try this on a pump switch but, if I had one that was stuck and the assembly was useless the way it is, I would try this. Keep in mind that you are to heat a small spot on the part that the switch screws into, NOT the switch itself. Once it breaks free, apply a water soaked rag to cool it down. Not ice cold but room temp or warmer. Might be a good idea to have that rag wrapped around the switch when applying the heat.Below is a pic of heating a cage nut to aid in freeing the "welded in" Insulator bolt. I soaked that nut/bolt with PB Blaster and Kroil for a couple of days and it wasn't until hitting it with the torch that it broke free using an air operated impact wrench.Hope this helps.Yah, I know... someone is going to ask how I covered the hole in the fender-well or, " Isn't that hole too big?" and, "What about the structural integrity?" and other such stuff. Well, there it is and as soon as I find the part and the ordering info for the cover, I'll post it.Knowing what I know now, I'd have drilled a one to one and a half inch hole to access the cage-nut. Just enough for the torch tip. At the time though, I thought I would have to get a pair of vice grips in there to hold the nut. Hindsight is always 20/20. Edited February 2, 2013 by Machiner 55 Added clarity to the "pie" analogy & removed an "and". (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Ronnie,Several years back, about the time you started posting here, I offered to produce these sockets at cost plus shipping. I had two made. Kept and sold one to a poster here. I also posted that I would pull that post if someone could get a better price on a tool to remove the switch. Someone then posted a pic of those plumbers sockets that cost about two bux. Couldn't compete, and that was the end of it. I don't think those plumbers tools would help anyone with a switch that was stuck like others have posted here but maybe one like this would. Anyway...There's a web site called Tool Source and it seems that they have the Kent Moore tool. Here is the link:ToolSource.comThanks John. I didn't realize you had done that. I completely understand. A lot of good things on this forum have ended for similar reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Roger: A suggestion for a sticky thread for 'Teves ABS Brake issues? Read this!'. Include the procedure for doing the brake test, and discuss the two most likely issues on the boost side - accumulator and pressure switch. On the ABS side, checking the sensors, especially the front ones, for bad leads. Also include how to read the codes from the ABS box and fluid bleeding tips. I bet just the above topics would resolve 95+% of the issues that folks are encountering. And brakes are such an important safety issue that all Reatta owners should be aware of them.It sounds like you would like Roger to post most the brake information (and probably other information - that can already be found on Reatta Owners Journal - here in the form of a sticky topic. It makes no sense to me but that will be fine with me if that is the direction this forum chooses to take. It will effectively eliminate the need for me to continue with ROJ and that might be a good thing in the long run. Some people don't appreciate free information. They expect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wws944 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 It sounds like you would like Roger to post most the brake information (and probably other information - that can already be found on Reatta Owners Journal - here in the form of a sticky topic. It makes no sense to me but that will be fine with me if that is the direction this forum chooses to take. It will effectively eliminate the need for me to continue with ROJ and that might be a good thing in the long run. Some people don't appreciate free information. They expect it.Well, we currently have a sticky for headlight problems. Brake problems seem very common at this point, are a major safety issue, and more (accurate) information is better than less. Lighten up a bit. I am not suggesting circumventing your fine work. In fact, I'd have no problem with the sticky referring to details at your web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ol' yeller Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 One final comment and question though 1) Those prssure switches are installed in the housing by Hercules. Ripped 3 lag bolts out of my vice which were sunk into 2 x 8's on top of 4 x 4's !!! If I ever meet you at a Reatta meet, excuse me if I don't shake your hand. You must have some grip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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