avgwarhawk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 The additional E15 testing, completed this month, has identified an elevated incidence of fuel pump failures, fuel system component swelling, and impairment of fuel measurement systems in some of the vehicles tested. E15 could cause erratic and misleading fuel gauge readings or cause faulty check engine light illuminations. It also could cause critical components to break and stop fuel flow to the engine. Failure of these components could result in breakdowns that leave consumers stranded on busy roads and highways. Fuel system component problems did not develop in the CRC tests when either E10 or E0 was used. It is difficult to precisely calculate how many vehicles E15 could harm. That depends on how widely it is used and other factors. But, given the kinds of vehicles tested, it is safe to say that millions could be impacted.Study: New E15 gas can ruin auto engines | WashingtonExaminer.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I have deleted the political arguments that were posted regarding this article. If you want to discuss it, please keep it civil. Further political arguments back and forth will simply be deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I had to delete additional political replys to this. Lets keep it civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Jury still out on ethanol pros and cons | Latest BioFuels News and Information Relating to Renewable Energy Production and Use.Experts suggest taking the following precautions for engines built before 1990, according to the Times:• Fill up with 100 percent gasoline whenever possible. The website puregas.org lists stations that sell it.• Inspect fuel lines, gaskets, hoses and replace as needed. When available, buy high-grade rubber components designed to withstand corrosion from ethanol.• If engines run lean, sputter, stall or hesitate, install larger carburetor jets.• When storing vehicles, use a fuel stabilizer or ethanol-treatment additive. No brands are specified.• For older performance cars, add an octane booster.These items above, as classic car owners, we're already are aware of. Interesting tid bit:Ethanol has been around for a long time. Henry Ford designed the first Model T to run on it because farmers could produce their own fuel.I guess, as classic car owners, we need to change with the change in fuel available. I have read excellent threads here concerning larger jets in carbs, using fuel injector rubber hoses for the fuel line where it can be used and fuel stabilizers for cars that sit for a spell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 (edited) I'm wondering if some of the stations here are getting hot loads. Lately on both the Ford truck and the Olds wagon I have noticed a different smell to the exhaust, and it smells a whole lot like burnt moonshine.RE Henry Ford- Henry also stuck with mechanical brakes and buggy springs far longer than anyone else. Edited February 9, 2013 by rocketraider (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GE Dictator 1928 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I am very concerned now, running my '28 Studebaker on E15. Is there an additive we can buy that will take the ethanol out by evaporation or chemical change?Also, I looked up the website mentioned above. it is www.pure-gas.org and unfortunately does not have any Long Island stations listed in the NY section. My fuel pump and carbeurator were rebuilt 1 1/2 years ago but i am concerned I'm going to tear something up.I agree that we don;t need political commentary, and I am probably as passsionate over politics as anyone else is on this forum, but it will not get us anywhere. Lets look for a solution for OUR hobby, so WE can continue to enjoy. I would like to bring something to my local region of AACA for discussion as well.Thank you, Keith Gramlich, Editor, The Newsletter, GNYR, AACA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 GE Dictator 1928,In my experience the data on that website about non-ethanol fuel is not always the most accurate. I suggest you call your local fuel suppliers and simply ask them if there are any nearby stations that stock non-ethanol fuel. There may be a source that is not listed on that website. I am lucky that I have several local stations that sell non-ethanol fuel. Other than that, if your fuel pump and carburetor were rebuilt that recently with new rubber components there is a relatively good chance that the components used are tolerant of ethanol fuel. The best advice is to make sure you don't let the car sit for long periods of time with ethanol containing fuel in it. There should also be some fuel stabilizers that you can purchase that will help. I don't have any personal experience with fuel stabilizers, as I can still run non-ethanol fuel, so I have not used any fuel stabilizers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I am very concerned now, running my '28 Studebaker on E15. Is there an additive we can buy that will take the ethanol out by evaporation or chemical change?Water. Except then you have to remove the water. Here is a video demonstrating the concept: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Water. Except then you have to remove the water. Here is a video demonstrating the concept: This is real engine suicide should anyone try it on a large scale. Seriously that shouldn't be surprising, as it's being demonstrated in a video where someone is mixing and blending gasoline indoors with absolutely no ventilation (not even an open window or fan).:eek:e10 gasoline is blended to an octane rating just like any other fuel. If you noticed (it's on the screen for about 3/4ths of a second 17 seconds in) the video contains a caption that reads "Removing ethanol lowers octane.", which is a bit simplistic and grammatically incorrect but true. Too true, as it turns out. Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 112.5. If you were to remove the ethanol from a tank of 87 octane rated e10 gas you'd be left with a tank of roughly 84-81 octane rated (or less) "pure" gasoline. De-ethanoled e15 gasoline would be even lower in octane, probably in the range of 75 or so. This would not be the wisest material to run through most cars (a low-compression 1928 6 cylinder would be a likely exception).=================BTW, it's actually illegal to put e15 gas in any car made before 2001, including a 1928 Studebaker. Finally, if your fuel system was rebuilt 1 1/2 years ago, and it was done with materials made essentially within the last 20 years, ethanol should not be an issue. e10 (then known as gasohol) has been almost unavoidable in large sections of the country for more than 30 years now (yet there aren't heaps of dead chain saws, boat motors, or Studebakers littering Iowa and Nebraska. Hmmm.). As a result new/replacement fuel system components/materials have had to be ethanol resistant for decades now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 BTW, it's actually illegal to put e15 gas in any car made before 2001, including a 1928 Studebaker. So where does that leave us when there is nothing available except E15? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) De-ethanoled e15 gasoline would be even lower in octane, probably in the range of 75 or so. This would not be the wisest material to run through most cars (a low-compression 1928 6 cylinder would be a likely exception) .How did you determine this? By your logic, octane is 75 or so when removing e15, adding more ethanol then should increase the octane higher than what e10 would increase it. Is there signage at the pump stating that e15 is 98 octane or higher? The octane rating is the same for e10 and e15? If so, how is removing e15 ethanol reducing octane to 75 but when removing e10 ethanol the octane drops to 84-81? But, octane is not higher for e15? I would think more ethanol would possibly increase octane. Edited February 14, 2013 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pfloro Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 How did you determine this? By your logic, octane is 75 or so when removing e15, adding more ethanol then should increase the octane higher than what e10 would increase it. Is there signage at the pump stating that e15 is 98 octane or higher? The octane rating is the same for e10 and e15? If so, how is removing e15 ethanol reducing octane to 75 but when removing e10 ethanol the octane drops to 84-81? But, octane is not higher for e15? I would think more ethanol would possibly increase octane. I'm not a petroleum chemist and have been wondering about this...I'll take a guess that the octane value of the 'pure' gasoline after refining is based on the percentage of ethanol which will be blended at the distribution terminal. In the way, regular grade E10 will have the same octane value as regular grade E15. However, the octane of the 'base' 100% gasoline will vary. (?) Again, I'm just guessing...I have a question for Dave@Moon: Dave, My 2011 Corolla clearly states on the fuel tank cap NOT to use E15 - E85. Do you think that manufacturers will 're-certify' post 2001 vehicles to use E15? I don't want my extended warranty (good through 2018) voided if I am forced into E15 or above. (OMG!)Thanks,Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 As I understand it, octane is mixed with pure gas to prevent premature detonation in the cylinder. Developed during WW2 for high altitude flying if I remember correctly. High compression engines tend to detonate in the cylinder as it he fuel/gas mixture hits the hot cylinder walls giving no time for the spark plug to fire the mixture at the correct time. As I see it, ethanol, is nothing more than a filler off setting some portion of the entire production of gasoline from foreign oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 So where does that leave us when there is nothing available except E15?Should that happen, you're buying gas in cans at the hardware store. I've been saying that here for years. It is an eventuality, and it'd be foolish to believe that pump fuels will go on forever with no changes in formulation that effect it's use in our (frankly) obsolete vehicles. It is incumbent on us and our representatives to lobby for access to usable fuels as long as possible. Hopefully in this semi-distant future there will be outlets (airfields, marinas, etc.) not legal for road cars that registered antiques can use. From a practical perspective it shouldn't be a problem, and if it's somehow important then the tax aspect of using such fuels over the road for such a limited number of cars could easily be addressed.But if we keep making fools of ourselves pretending we can prevent progress via rage over the convenience of a hobby, that might not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I have a question for Dave@Moon: Dave, My 2011 Corolla clearly states on the fuel tank cap NOT to use E15 - E85. Do you think that manufacturers will 're-certify' post 2001 vehicles to use E15? I don't want my extended warranty (good through 2018) voided if I am forced into E15 or above. (OMG!)Thanks,PaulMy 2012 Yaris says exactly the same thing (the 2010 Prius does not). However if Toyota (or anyone else) is confronted with the prospect of not being able to sell cars in the U.S. unless they accept the fuels approved here via a rigorous process (still underway), that gas cap will suddenly mean nothing very quickly.At any rate it's FAR more likely that gas cap will be recycled (with the rest of the car) before e10 gas goes anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) As I understand it, octane is mixed with pure gas to prevent premature detonation in the cylinder.I think you're confusing octane with tetraethyl lead.Octane is the name of an 8 carbon chain molecule (alkane) with 10 hydrogen atoms attached (e.g. methane, ethane, propane, butane, pentane, hexane, heptane, octane, nonane, decane, etc.). It is one of thousands of components in crude oil, and therefore in gasoline. "Octane rating" is a measure of a fuels tendency to pre-ignite. More properly described it is a measure of the speed of the flame front of the exploding fuel in the cylinder. The faster the flame goes from the spark plug to the top of the piston, the lower the octane rating. ANYTHING liquid that burns when vaporized will have an octane rating, including ethanol. It's called an "octane rating" as it was originally conceived as measure and comparison to chemically pure octane, which is physically similar to pump gas (and would have a theoretical octane rating of 100).Since pure ethanol burns so much slower than any gasoline (octane rating = 112.5), it has to be blended with lighter grades of a lower octane rating to obtain a final product that is the requisite 87 octane. The more ethanol you use, the lower the octane rating of the gasoline blend material you need to use to get the same (87 octane) result. If you pull out the ethanol, all you're going to have left is the "low octane" blend gas. Edited February 15, 2013 by Dave@Moon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 No, I'm not confusing octane with lead. Octane is a flammable hydrocarbon liquid that along with other hydrocarbons –pentane, hexane, heptane, and many others – is refined from crude oil and make up the blend ofchemical components called gasoline.Octane is a measure of a fuel’s tendency to knock or ping when it is mixed withair and burned in the cylinder of an engine. This octane rating is not based on the amount of chemicaloctane in the gasoline. The rating is called octane because the gasoline’s ability to prevent engine knockhas been rated against the performance of pure hydrocarbon octane, which has a rating of 100.Gasoline, which is made from a blend of many other hydrocarbons, may have a higher or lower rating,depending on how its anti-knock performance compares to the performance of pure hydrocarbon octane.Octane Facts• Knock occurs when cylinder pressures are high. It is normal for an engine to ping a little at full throttlebecause cylinder pressures are very high at full throttle. Engine knock, however, should not be ignoredsince it can result in serious damage to the engine.• High octane gasoline burns slower than low octane gasoline. The slow burn prevents engine knock whencylinder pressures are high.• If your engine runs well and does not knock or ping on low octane gasoline, there is no advantage inswitching to higher octane gasoline.• If your engine knocks or pings, it does not necessarily mean something is wrong with the gasoline. It couldbe a problem with the engine’s electronic control systems, ignition timing or exhaust gas recirculation. On ahigh mileage engine, a carbon build-up in the cylinders can increase cylinder pressures and cause knock.Octane Myths• High octane gasoline improves mileage.In general, if your car is designed to run on 87 octane gasoline, high octane gasoline will not improvemileage. If switching to high octane gasoline does improve mileage, you might find that your engine, or itscontrol systems, need repair.• High octane gasoline gives quicker starting.No, it doesn’t.• High octane gasoline increases power.If your car is designed to run on 87 octane gasoline, you shouldn’t notice any more power on high octanegasoline. Again, if it does make a noticeable difference, your engine, or the engine’s electronic controlsystems, may need repair.• High octane gasoline has been refined more – it is just a better product.Additional refining steps are used to increase the octane; however, these additional steps do not necessarilymake the gasoline a “better” product for all engines. They just yield a different blend of hydrocarbons thatburn more slowly. The additional steps also increase the price.http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-measures/images/OctaneFacts.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) As I understand it, octane is mixed with pure gas to prevent premature detonation in the cylinder. Developed during WW2 for high altitude flying if I remember correctly.No, I'm not confusing octane with lead. http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-measures/images/OctaneFacts.pdfFrom your link as you quoted it (correctly):This octane rating is not based on the amount of chemical octane in the gasoline. The rating is called octane because the gasoline’s ability to prevent engine knock has been rated against the performance of pure hydrocarbon octane, which has a rating of 100.Nobody "mixes" octane into to fuel. Chemically pure octane is a very expensive thing to produce, and is used almost exclusively in laboratory testing. Tetraethyl lead was blended into gasoline beginning in the 1920s to raise octane ratings, and it use was expanded greatly during World War 2. This eventually created fuels rated as high as 150 octane for supercharged high altitude aircraft engines (esp. Rolls Royce Merlin engines). Edited February 15, 2013 by Dave@Moon fixed quote (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) ? Post 13, read it. I understand the origins of high octane fuel developed by James Dolittle in 1939 when he went to work for Shell and continued to conduct air shows. He was a pioneer in the field. Read his book, "I Could Never Be So Lucky." No need to reiterate the use of high octane in aircraft at high altitude. It's out there already. As far as the lead confusion I believe that is on your end. Edited February 16, 2013 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Nothing to see here folks! Let's move along!Avgwarhawk began this thread with what most on this forum would agree with. Dave disagrees and neither viewpoint will ever be changed.......on this web site at least. Have a good day!Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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