Any Scottish Argyll's Out There?

I hope you will forgive me for making my first post within your community one in the nature of a request.

(Admin - If this is the wrong forum to post this thread into please accept my apologies. I considered the "British" forum, however I felt that although a British make I'm asking a wide-ranging question - hence placing it here.)

I am a Volunteer Researcher working with the Museum of Transport, here in the city of Glasgow, Scotland and have recently been tasked with a three year project to investigate the historic Scottish motor manufacturing company – Argyll Motors Ltd.

Argyll Motors Ltd. at one point were the largest manufacturers of motor vehicles in Europe, however the "visionary powerhouse" of the company Alex Govan suddenly died and from there on the company struggled to keep its position in the market. However they continued right up until the start of the First World War, by which time had established the marque as a quality product with many innovative design firsts.

Perhaps the best known product to come out of the Argyll company is the Single Sleeve-Valve Engine and its many variations. The aero engine type was produced under licence by Continental in the US, so perhaps some of you will have personal experience of these interesting engines.

<span style="font-weight: bold">1900 Argyll 5 hp.</span>

One of the tasks I have identified is attempting to locate existing Argyll vehicles that are still in running order, or at least, relatively complete. I’m aware of at least one Argyll in California back in the 1980’s, but no more than that, although Argyll exported widely to the US, Canada and South America - for example the City of New York took delivery of 50 Argyll taxi-cabs in the early 1900’s.

And this leads me to the purpose of my post – May I ask if any member here is aware of an Argyll that is still in existence in your area? I’m not looking for owner’s names or exact locations, just the vehicle type, age and condition (if possible), although a city / State would be very helpful.

<span style="font-weight: bold">1913 Argyll 15/30</span>

(The photographs are two examples of the seven Argylls we have at the museum, just to give you a flavour of the cars I'm asking about)

Many thanks in anticipation for any assistance you may be able to give.

Argyll.

Argyll...Welcome to the AACA Forum.

Very interesting post and questions.

In addition to any response on the Forum, please click on "Library" on the Home Page. Therein, you will find information on how to submit any queries you have and the phone/address should you desire to speak with our library staff.

The AACA's library in Hershey, PA retains thousands of old vehicle spec sheets, literature, and, historical research material.

Regards,

PJH...

Hi PJH,

Thank you for the thoughtful welcome - its much appreciated.

And I will be sure to visit your "Library"; resources like this are so valuable when searching for the proverbial "needle in a haystack".

Not to mention I'm looking forward to spending some time reading through the forums to learn more about your early American historic vehicles.

Regards, Argyll.

Hi

They were also sold in Australia. Years ago I read an autobiography of a person/company that sold them in SA.

Manuel in Oz

You're absolutely right Manuel - we sold a lot of Argylls to you guys down there.

Not quite on your doorstep, but a good sight closer than I am is a 1914 15/30 Tourer, like the one pictured above, in the Southward Car Museum in New Zealand. So far I've located at least 4 Argylls either in Australia or New Zealand that were still in existence in the last 20 years.

Could I ask, do you remember the details of the book you mention - Author, Title, Publisher, that sort of thing?

Thanks for your reply - every little all helps.

Argyll.

Here's an Argyll story for you. This came from the memoirs of an old time car dealer. I believe it was written up in one of the English old car magazines but I can't remember exactly where I got it from.

In any case the story goes like this. In the early 20's this bloke was working for the English importer of the Chandler car. At the Earls Court auto show he hired some pretty girls to dress up in Quaker costumes and hand out literature about the car.

Nothing like this had been done before and it caused something of a sensation. The stand was mobbed, and the incident even got written up in the press.

The management immediately made a new rule that the exhibitors and their employees were not allowed to wear "fancy dress".

The next year the Chandler stand was next to the Argyll display. The head of the Argyll company came to London for the show, and brought his teenage son.

This young lad helped out on the display stand, wearing a blazer and a kilt in the Argyll tartan.

The Chandler man lodged a complaint with the management. Not that he cared what anyone wore - he wanted to see what would happen when an Englishman told a Scotsman that he couldn't wear a kilt because it was fancy dress.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Aye Rusty - you know, I often get asked what's worn under my kilt, and my reply always is ..............

"Nothing, its all in perfect working order!"

Argyll.

One last thing guys - could anybody recommend any other web sites like this where I could ask my original question?

Thanks, Argyll.

<span style="font-weight: bold">1900 2 3/4 hp Argyll Voiturette</span>

I don't know of any other forums but there is a museum of transportation in Massachusetts, Brookline I think. I was sending him a lot of my double prints when I took photos at car shows. They may have something there.

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/image.php?inum=TGSE00143

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/imageview...f71b1375dec430d

Thanks for these leads guys - they're much appreciated.

Argyll.

I finally remembered the name of the book. The title is "From Horse to Horsepower" by S A Cheney. Published in 1965 I think with 296p.

Check out this site, esp the first para:

http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A070639b.htm

Hope this helps.

Manuel in Oz

Hi Manuel,

Many thanks in taking the trouble to locate those details for me - his Bio makes interesting reading. He displays all the attributes of those determined to make something of themselves, where sheer determination literally drives them to greatness.

We had a similar advertising stunt back in 1911, where a Ford Model "T" was driven up to the summit of Scotlands highest mountain - Ben Nevis (1334m / 4377ft). This is an extract from www.mountainwalk.co.uk regarding the event -

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Ben Nevis conquered by Car</span></span>

<span style="font-style: italic">In 1911 a 20 horse-power Model T Ford was driven to the top of the mountain as a publicity stunt by the Ford agents in Edinburgh. Henry Alexander Jr, the son of the owner, was the driver. The car was not simply driven up the track - it involved 10 days of preparatory work finding and checking a driveable way to just the half way mark, and to put in bridging planks. It took three further days to drive the car to this point and just two more days to cover the stones and snow to the observatory. The car would sink axle deep in the boggy ground and would have to be hauled out by rope. The 'Daily Telegraph' reported at the time that a false turn of the wheel would mean a fall which would have caused total destruction to the car, and certain death to the driver!

Mr Alexander was feted as a hero when the car returned to Fort William. After the brakes were adjusted no other repairs were necessary, and the car was driven back to Edinburgh.

Mr Alexander seemed to enjoy his feat so much that he repeated it in 1928, this time in a Standard New Ford (Model A Ford). The last quarter of a mile was driven with four passengers.</span>

Wouldn't it be fabulous if Mr Cheney did the same thing in an Argyll! (But perhaps it might have been a Ford).

Argyll.

Great pics and interesting story.

I hope they sold a few more cars after that stunt.

Apparently Model T's preferred to climb hills backwards.

I think the petrol tank was under the front seat and therefore lower than the engine.

Climbing steep hills used to starve the engine of fuel so they used to turn around and the problem was solved.

Manuel in Oz

You're never going to believe this Manuel - I was in the museum yesterday researching the Argyll company and to give me a break I pulled out what we had on our own Model T we have on display. You're comment about reversing up hills had caught my attention, so I though I'd take some time out and read up on "T"'s.

As I went though the documents I discovered a small book written at the end of the Second World War by a motoring journalist, James MacFarlane, who had been actively involved in the birth of motoring in Scotland during the early 1900's. He recounted the tale of the Ben Nevis stunt, but more importantly (to me at least) it turns out Henry Alexander, the driver of the "T" had been an engineering apprentice in Argyll Motors Ltd!

So thanks for your input, if you hadn't mentioned Mr Cheney I probably would have never discovered this important little fact.

Next time you're in Scotland the beer is on me.

Argyll.

Just a quick thank you to those members that PM'ed me with information regading information and photographs of these great vehicles - all very much appreciated.

<span style="font-weight: bold">1907 Argyll 10/12 hp Tourer</span>

Argyll.

Just a small update to say that things are moving forward, where between the help from members on this web site and another one recommended to me I've now located at least 7 probables.

One member gave me a lead to a 1910 15/25 Touring in Oregon, which to my great surprise, after unravelling its movements, I believe has made its way back to Scotland and is sitting in the National Museums of Scotland in Edinburgh, not 30 miles from me!

<span style="font-weight: bold">1910 Argyll 15/25 Touring</span>

Argyll.

Been following with interest since I've visited the Glasgow museum several times. We lived in Scotland for several years in the later 70's and early 80's while stationed at Edzell with the US Navy. I was able to locate the remains of a 1909 Argyle on a farm near Glen Esk. I collected early auto postcards and one of my favorites was an Argyle driving under the gateway into the village of Edzell. While looking through a small museum at Glen Esk I noted an old photograph showing this same car in the approximate same position. Guess the postcard was actually made using that photo. The museum curator commented that the car had lived in Edzell for along time and the family was still farming in the area. I was surprised to see the remains of the car still existed on the farm. I believe there was a brass radiator, an engine, parts of a chassis and some other small parts. Nothing was for sale until the family sold out at an auction a few years later. The parts were purchased by several individuals. They probably went into other cars being restored, but it was a thrill to have tracked the car down and find pieces of it were still around. I'll try and get a scan on the postcard and get it posted here.

I'm sure you are also aware of the Argyle in the Myerton Motor Museum at Aberlady. They also have some memorabilia from the Alexander Ford climb of Ben Nevis.

Terry

Hi Terry,

Thank you for your interest - believe me although being with the museum for seven years and developing a broad brushstroke knowledge of all the transport related objects that have tyres on them (except bicycles), its only during the last few months I've decided to focus - and what a truely fascinating focus!

Your comment about " I believe there was a brass radiator, an engine, parts of a chassis and some other small parts. Nothing was for sale until the family sold out at an auction a few years later." - this is a link to an excellent Argyll related web site here in Scotland created by a gent who may well now be the owner of these parts - http://www.argyll-enthusiast.co.uk

I haven't met Mr Smith, but hope to make contact with him some time in the future to introduce myself and see if I could be of any help to him in his own research.

And finally - if you would be willing to share a scan of your postcard with me I would be most appreciative. I'm visiting an Argyll owner near Glen Esk next year, so I will make a point of arranging a visit to the museum you mention as well.

On a separate subject, but interlinked, my best friend was (now retired) a US Navy sailor based at the Holy Loch on the USS Canopus during the early 1970's, boy did we get up to a lot of nonsense as two recruits, him navy and me fire dept! He now lives in Jacksonville, Fla. and we keep in touch through vacations, phone, etc. We're still a pair of petrol-heads, older, but not much wiser, him with an MGB and me with a 1957 Chevy, you'd think it'd be the other way round wouldn't you.

<span style="font-weight: bold">1908 Argyll 14/16</span>

Argyll.

I hope this may be of interest as its certainly surprised us here at the museum - Bonhams auction house at the beginning of this month sold a 1902 Argyll 8 hp almost identical to one we have for a record $320,000 inc. premium & taxes, that's a serious price for one of these appreciating little cars.

<span style="font-weight: bold">1902 Argyll 8 hp</span>

Photograph by Bonhams.

Argyll.

Thanks for the link-that could be the same parts that were sold near Edzell. I'll email to confirm. I'll try to scan the postcard and post it here. It's interesting to note your friend has a MGB - same here! I don't know of too many who were ever stationed there that didn't fall in love with some sort of sports car or motorcycle. Actually, it was my wife Susan who got the MG bug first. We were stationed on the other side of the country near Aberdeen and didn't know too many who were stationed over at Holy Loch. Who is the owner near Glen Esk?

Terry

Hi Terry,

I'll PM you that name if you don't mind just in case the owner didn't want it published onto the web.

Argyll.

I know it isn't an Argyle but it would be interesting to see something published here about the RSAC's 1905 three cylinder RR. I've not found much at all about this wonderful car, especially now that the pending auction of the 1904 car is sucking up all the media attention. While that is apparently the oldest surviving car, the one in possession of the Royal Scottish Automobile Club is the only surviving three cylinder car. As I recall the story, it was willed to the RSAC on the condition it never leave Scotland. Do you have any info and current photos on it? I had the pleasure of riding in it on a rally once to the Doune motor museum back in the 70s. It was a fabulous car and I think even a plastic model kit of it was done years ago.

Terry

Hi Terry,

There's a sad tale to this remarkable vehicle, one that will add another chapter in its history.

The RSAC (Royal Scottish Automobile Club) was wound up two or three years ago, or thereabouts and I believe this Rolls has ended up in a sort of limbo over outstanding bills owed for extensive work carried out on it.

Where it currently is I don't know as it dropped out of sight with all the litigation that was impending, I don't even know whether there's been a subsequent resolution to the dispute.

I'm not in the museum tomorrow (having a day in Edinburgh doing some research), but I'll ask some of the vehicle Curators on Friday if they know anything.

Argyll.

It may not be the only surviving 3 cyl RR. Not that long ago a friend of mine up north followed a clue to an outback property which might be described as abandonned in as much as there was no homestead left, or anyone living on it. On the next property where he went to enquire, was the local mechanic repairing something for another property in the district. He told John that he had authority over the vacant property, and gave him directions exactly where to find the Rolls on the property dump. He said that it was a three cylinder car, and that John was welcome to remove it. The dump was on a sandy rise as is typical, and you would need directions, because you would not otherwise find it unless you were lost. There was no Rolls there anymore, but imprint in the sand where the chassis of a car which would have matched the size had been removed just days previously. He could tell this by the activity of the ants, and also wheel tracks. His hypothesis is that someone may have been doing aerial search to locate old car remains. The man who gave John directions and authority to take what he found clearly knew mechanically that the engine was a three cylinder, even though he had no interest in the value for historical and restoration purpose. There used to be a lot of extraordinary car stuff about out here, but it is well skinned out now. In 1968 I went on a trip up to outback Queensland with Arthur Lang, and we brought back aboun 7-8 ton of restoreable cars and parts, including two 1913 Cadillacs, a Talbot, a small poppet valve Mercedes, an Overland, and a Sunbeam, plus Benz and Napier parts , all pre 1914. I recall Arthur saying on the way home that he would gladly exchange what we had for what we had driven past. There used to be great wealth in the rural areas. Cars that were in road condition in the '50's which have been exported many decades ago include the Semmering Mercedes from Melbourne, and Cagno's 1907 Itala from the Coppa Florio race meeting, and the big 6 cylinder opposed piston engine Gobron Brillie, both from South Australia. I have no reason to doubt that there is a second surviving 3 cylinder Rolls; but as it was likely gatered by a dealer, it would be oceans away from here now.

Ivan Saxton

These are the stories that make our hobby so great - tales of barn finds, and the outback are legendary and I enjoy the Hershey experience just for things like this. The Scottish highlands were also great for early stuff but it was always a little more difficult for me as a "furiner" to get behind the fence. Still there were some great discoveries like the Argyle parts.

I wasn't aware there had been problems with the RSAC but I do know the Rolls was at one time in the possession of a designated "caretaker" named Adam Dick who was the fellow I met and rode with. It was a fantastic car and indeed had some restoration work done on it over the years. I was of the understanding there was a fund established for it's care and feeding but it very well could have been depleted over time. If you have an opportunity to speak with the folks over at the Myerton Motor Museum they might know its current location and status. Keep us posted on both your Argyle search and if you should find any info on the Rolls.

Wow, to think that another 3-cylinder car exists somewhere is amazing.

Terry

I'm with you Terry, 3-cylinders are a rare breed indeed!

And Ivan, if there's one thing I've learned over the last few years is that Australia and New Zealand has some serious "finds" yet to be discovered.

I've just finished reading an article in Novembers "The Automobile" about the sole surviving 1914 Lanchester Sporting Forty, Lanchester's rival to Rolls Royce's Silver Ghost - and where was this incredably rare car discovered - South Australia.

Maybe I should take my annual vacations down with you guys and not across the pond to Terry's side of the world.

I can send you references if you like which of which magazines and what models have turned up as Barn Finds, for sale etc both in the UK, Aus, NZ save you the airfair to AACA Library which i have hard is impressive

Cheers Julian from New Zealand

Hi Julian,

If you come across an Argyll for sale in your neck of the world I'd be very interested in hearing about it, not to buy as I couldn't afford one, just to add updated information to the museum's data base.

Thanks, Argyll.

Argyll haven't seen one for sale yet here in New Zealand

although a 1909 4 seat tourer (I am not sure what type)owned by Ken Rieper of Nz Vintage Car Club -Hawkes Bay Branch was overall winner in the Hawkes Bay Branch 25th Anniversary Veteran rally in 1984 photo of the car and report written by Ken Rieper himself see Beaded Wheels (NZ) February-March 1985 Page 24-25 Issue Number 152 - the photo of car registration is not clear but it looks like Reg C_82_ _ (NZ plates)

I indexed most Beaded Wheels (NZ Vintage Car Club Magazine) since 1976-2006 on going thing....

Keep you posted if I find more

Cheers Julian from New Zealand

Its been a while since this thread was last posted onto and I'm hoping bumping it back up might catch the eye of newer members who may not have read it, but might have some information.

The other thing I'd like to raise again is dealers or agents for Argyll cars in the US around 1905 until 1916 - has anybody come across a dealer or agent in their research where Argyll cars were part of their stock?

Many thanks, Argyll.

You might be aware of this picture of a 1913 Argyll as it is from an English-published, Italian-printed book entitled,"History of the Motorcar" by Marco Matteucci. The Argyll along with the 13 Lanchester and the 14 Sunbeam were photographed at the 1964 Prescott hillclimb.This is the only photo but there are a few passages. In one,credit is given for devising the first successful 4 wheel braking system controlled by one action to Henry Perrott, the manager. In 4 wheel brakes previous to the Argyll it was hard to keep the braking from affecting the steering

That's excellent Dave, I wasn't aware of this publication - and thank you in taking the time to scan the image(s), the Argyll obviously is of great interest to me. And the Lanchester and Sunbeam pictures are much appeciated as well.

This Argyll still exists and in November 2008 it found new owners in Yorkshire, England, (who I believe also own a 1904 Argyll 10/12 Tourer). In 2008 it sold for approx. $65000 (£37,400), which for such a rare car is to me a bit of a bargain in vintage & veteran car prices.

If you're interested this is the H&H Auction report relating to its 2008 sale - 1913 Argyll 25/50 Open Tourer Auction - Classic Car Auctions & Sale - H&H

Argyll.

I see the years weren't kind to "ASW' since the 64 Prescott Hill Climb. My book doesn't give any information about said hill climb but here are three more participants. The book has some info on the Arrol-Johnston and the Albion(just that it was an offshoot) if you'd like I will send that to you.The cars,in order, are 1904 Humberette, !904 Vauxhall, and 1903 Panhard Lavassor

Hi Dave,

Thank you, you've done more than enough, which is much appreciated, but I'm not going to need the info on the Albion and Arrol-Johnston.

I'm trying to keep focused on Argyll as my research is driven by Glasgow Museums research department on that specific marque. Albion and Arrol-Johnston are both extensive research projects in themselves and I've dipped into A-J on and off over the years. If you like technical research check out Shackleton's 1907-09 "Nimrod Expedition" to the Antarctic, he took the first internal-combustion engined vehicle there, an A-J, which was a pioneer itself in vehicle design.

Argyll.

Hi all, looking to make contact with Argyll owners for info, knowledge and spare parts. Would love to hear from other owners so please message me. Thanks Alex in New Zealand

Hi Alex,

I'm not an owner, however the Scottish transport museum I'm a researcher in has 8 Argyll cars in its collection. Is there anything specific you'd like to know and I'll try to help?

Bob.

Hi Bob, thanks for your reply. The first thing I would be greatful to know is if you or anyone else could shed light on what year this engine is. Below is a photo of the serial number. How do the serial

Numbers work and what are the two different numbers for?

Thanks

Hi Alex,

Confirmed Argyll ID numbers are very limited, albeit well-meaning many being misread - the numbers give some information, however if you have an image of the engine that would help me enormously.

S1 I believe to be the year of manufacture of the engine and a picture would help me tie down a possible date.

195 is the engine number and its original associated gearbox would have had the same, but with slightly different pre-fix to the engine, probably X1 195.

With the death of Alex Govan in 1907 the company went through a dramatic re-organisation of its manufacturing processes and catalogue, part of that appears to have been a complete change in how they identified major component parts. For example, pre-Govan's death ID numbers I have located are all simple numeric series e.g. 12345, whereas afterwards they became 1F * S * 1***.

May I ask, is it a complete car your enquiring about or major components you have as there are other numbers available on a complete vehicle which helps?

Hi Bob,

This is just an engine and radiator at this stage but watch this space...

Pics now attached.

Regards