Ten Point Rule

[Restorer32]

"I requested he speak with me before taking any points off my engine compartment". This statement shows a basic lack of understaning as to how AACA judging works. "Minor paint chips on a door and rear quarter". You don't think you should have lost points for these problems? They judged your car and it was not actually on the show field? Was this fair to the other owners? You are saying that a Judge congratulated an owner on the field implying that he had "won"? If this is true that is a flagrant violation of policy. You saw "blatant mandatory deductions" on the other two vehicles in your class? Please explain what these items were. You do know that only the Team Captain is supposed to talk to the car owner? Sorry you had a bad day. I suggest you attend Judging School at your first oppportunity for a better understanding of how the AACA Judging system is supposed to work.

[Guest windjamer]

No MC, I did not. My first atempt at senior was at Binghamton. AS a small part of the staf for the meet I had access to the registration and knew in advance who was registered in my class. I also knew I had as much chance of rec. an award as that sno-ball in hades.One of the cars was A former class press. I both admire and respect he has helped me with advice more than once and i consider him a frend,I also knew he would show with a near perfect car. I still entered thinking I would get some pos. feedback. As expected I did not rec. an award and sent for my judging sheet. I was vary suprised at the minor points listed and with one exception would have made the same deductions, in truth I was realy pleased. Now on to Hershey. One deduction was for spark plug wires. My wires came from the local Buick dealer are labled delco and the corect # acording to the book. Im going to look I think I still have the sales slip. I also rec. a deduction for body bolts. My Buick is a 10 year frame off rest. and all bolts and mtgs. came from Buick. Go figure, there was a ded. for the water pump, no shi-, the whole mtr. was covered with coolent from overheating.There is nothing to be done now,and I realy dont know if I will show the car at aaca again. I will continue in judging and I promiss to rase hel- with ANY judge I see not performing to aaca standards. I CAN say my car was looked at by folks from Flint MI. and I was invited to I should say asked to show it at a concors event they are planing for 2008. Who knows ??

[Guest windjamer]

32 I had a tiny chip on the left door a second SMALL stone chip on the lower left quater, IF YOU are familure( Iknow its spelled wrong) with judging this is a 1 or 2 pt ded. each.Total of 4. I may not be able to spell, but Im damm good at addition.I have judged at hershey and attended the schools for almost 10 years now. also my car WAS on the field, just not in the proper class. Gosh, come to think of it there where a lot of us out of place. Thank you, Dick

[MCHinson]

Please don't condemn the system based on one bad experience at Hershey. Hershey was sort of chaotic this year in my view anyway. Remember that any system is only as good as the people in it. From your description, it sounds like some deductions were taken for condition due to the overheating. That sounds like an error on the part of the judges to me, but it might not have been. Is it possible that there was some slight rust developing on some of the correct bolts or something similar to that? I know that on my older restoration Model A, I have to touch up some slight surface rust on bolts and other things every now and then. It is important to always take a close look at all of those small difficult to notice things that could cost a point here and there for condition.

Some people had problems at Hershey this year. Some others don't seem to want to admit that there were any problems at all. With that said, I still encourage you to not give up on the system. Write the VP of Class Judging and make him aware of your concerns. He is very responsive and is working very hard to continue to improve the judging system. Keep trying and Good Luck. Maybe the third time is the charm.

[Restorer32]

I'm more concerned with what you saw as misconduct on the part of a judge. If that judge congratulated an owner on a win then he or she should certainly be reported. Also, if mandatory deductions were missed those judges need to be "re-educated". I'm surprised that you received your highlighted judging sheet back from headquarters this quickly. Yes, there were more than the usual number of problems at this years Hershey. Team members now have the opportunity to critique the performance of their Team Captain. I believe there were also cars judged that ended up being pushed onto the field. Again, this is contrary to the rules but I think justifiable under the circumstances. Maybe all this discussion will lead to some improvement for next year.

[Guest Stonefish]

I saw a few things that made me scratch my head, when the results were posted for Hershey this year.

a 1st Jr. with Halogen headlights & an electronic ignition system.

another with after market performance parts...era correct, but "not from the factory"

a 2nd Jr. car that had very noticeable body issues...severe bubbling and inner fender repairs that were very blatant with the hood up.

anyone else see some "eye poppers" when the results came out?

[Guest windjamer]

32 im not surer I would use the word misconduct,that may be a little strong. Over use of power yes nit picking yes. I will except part of the blame.I was upset. I drove close to400 miles in a vary short time and then sit in line for over 1 and 1/2 hr. only to have my car overheat and stall a hundred yds. from my class. I was upsit and let the capt. know it,you will never convince me that this did not make him and team look a little harder. One LAST point, my sheet shows a deduction for side marker lite. I have a 65 Skylark gs. my step son has the same car differant color, my neph. also has the same year & make I have looked at all three cars and can not locate a side marker on any of the 3. Can some one help me locate it???

[novaman]

I agree with MCHinson, don't give up on the judging system due to your experiance at Hershey. As already pointed out there were enough problems there. Try another national meet and see how you make out. To be honest, personally I think anyone taking a car to Hershey looking for anything other than a preservation awards is nuts. Why take the car to a show that most likely will have more cars in your class than any other show, plus a higher car to judge ratio and having to deal with the crowd of people. I'd much rather take a car to a national meet like the one in Binghamton (which I did - HPOF car) or else where than to take one to Hershey (which I didn't and never will).

BTW, enojoyed the Binghamton Meet.

As for the side marker light, any chance it could be part of a turnsignal light? I don't know the car well enough to remember all the lights, but there should be a red and amber light visable at night from the side opf the car and this may be what they were looking at. Like on my '95 Dodge pickup, the front "side marker" is actually built into the side of the headlight assembly.

[novaman]

Come to think of it, the '65 Chevy IIs don't have lights you can see from the side. Just grabbed my judge's book. That is

Light:

. Side / Parking

Maybe it was the parking light and not the side marker. There would not be an indecation on your scoresheet as to which it was taken off for. So the VP of class judgign wouldn't know which area to marker there. And you do have parking lights in the front bumper.

[Shop Rat]

windjamer, I wish that I had known you were going to be at Hershey. I would have liked to meet you.

novaman is correct about the Team Captain certification program. My advice to you is to write to/send an e-mail to Hulon McCraw (he is in charge of the T.C. program) and explain to him how you were treated by the Team Captain for your class.

At each show field judges are given a form to fill out about how they felt the Team Captain did. Those forms will help decide who makes it as a Certified Team Captain and who doesn't.

But owners should also report on Team Captains that they feel have done a good job or a bad job.

Please bring your car to another AACA show and give another Team Captain a chance to show you how it should be done.

And since the long, slow lines were not your fault it was correct, in my opinion, for your car to be judged where it sat after overheating. While waiting in line at Administration to hand in the judging sheets for the class we judged, I overheard Dave Berg mention that a car had overheated. I had no idea until now that it was your car.

[Guest windjamer]

Susan please believe me, I was not the only car to overheat.There was a beutiful red t/bird that stoped almost in the same spot as mine. Im not sure but I think he may have blown a hose or evan a raditor.Mine blew the t/stat gasket and made a mess of my engine compartment,but I dont think any serious damage was done. I do plan to stay in the judging system, will I enter a car again? I dont know. I had hoped to take her chevelle to fla. for the gran. nat duel meet, that would give her the 10th. pres. award. She says to he-- with it its 5mo. away guess we will see. Hope to meet you down the road Dick.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> personally I think anyone taking a car to Hershey looking for anything other than a preservation awards is nuts</div></div>So you're saying that we're nuts huh David?? Over the last 6 meets at Hershey, we've taken two First Juniors, a Senior, and five Preservation Awards at Hershey. I will say that we've had our toughest competition at Hershey, but a win at Hershey is as sweet as the chocolate. When someone sees the trophies in our trophy case, Johnstown, Purchase, Carlisle, Metropolis, Hagerstown, Greensburg, and Binghamton are all names, but HERSHEY is HERSHEY and when they see Hershey, everyone knows that show. I think we've had tougher competition at Hershey than what we've had at some of the AGNM's that we've been to, but a win at Hershey is still worth bragging rights over the other shows.

Dick, don't give up on the system. The Hershey Region knows that they screwed up, so give them a chance to make it right. I'm sure they'll fix it. Things don't always go right, but I'll give them credit for a group that keeps trying, there's no one that has found more rules in the Murphy's law book then those folks.

Also remember that in your case at Hershey, you kind of fell into a few situations.

1. The rulebook states that all cars must be driven onto the showfield.

2. The rulebook also states that anything that happens en route to a meet to a vehicle will not face a point deduction. This would include a cracked windshield, smashed fender, bullet hole, etc. In your case, your car boiled over before it made it onto the showfield, so if your car was judged, it shouldn't have faced any deductions for cleanliness in the engine area so long as it was anti-freeze rather than grease.

3. Also bear in mind that your vehicle was fully capable of making it onto the showfield had things not screwed up on behalf of the region.

Had I arrived onto the showfield later, I probably would've been in the same situation. The Ford factory coil that is on our fire truck works good for about 20 minutes and then the truck runs like junk and then quits. When the truck is being driven, we run a Napa voltage regulator that is higher intensity than the Ford factory voltage regulator. In our case we took the NAPA voltage regulator off of the truck and hooked the wires back into the factory voltage regulator because of it being judged. Had we spent more than 20 minutes in a situation like yours, we'd have been dead in the driveway too.

[novaman]

... yea .. at least nuttier than I. I think we all need to be a little nuts to be in this hobby, or at least it helps.

I understand it from your side and your right about it having bragging rights but my statement comes from and tied to your comment "I think we've had tougher competition at Hershey than what we've had at some of the AGNM's that we've been to" is why you'll never find me with a car at Hershey. Boils down to this, the awards aren't that important to me, WHY would I want to go through the headaches of the trailer parking, trying to get on the field, etc.? The only "award" I'm missing out on (and the most vaulable to me) is a dash plaque.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone that brings thier car to Hershey or the folks that put up with the headaches of hosting this meet every year. It's nice that these people do bring thier cars.

It's getting late and I'm starting to not make sense to myself..zzzzzz

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not trying to belittle anyone that brings thier car to Hershey</div></div> No you're not belittling us. You've been to our shop and seen the cars, the hinged basement stairs, etc. so you <span style="font-weight: bold">KNOW</span> we're nuts.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ex98thdrill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...the hinged basement stairs, </div></div>

So what is that all about? Care to share a photo?

[novaman]

it's so you can get more cars in the basement.

[Shop Rat]

Cool. Now I really do want to see a photo.

[Guest rbl2]

The cars are prolly all smashed up from sliding down the stairs.

[ex98thdrill]

No we don't roll our cars down the stairs. Both my dad's house and my house were built with walk out basements (we both designed and built our own houses), and we've even gone as far as to put overhead doors so we can drive cars in our basements. With a little maneuvering, I can get 5 cars in my basement, where as I speak right now, my dad has 7 cars in his basement. In order to get more cars in, we hinged his basement stairs so when we have to get another car in, we pull the railing out (it's in like a stake pocket type mounting), raise the steps up, put our designated "stair prop" under the stairs, and then roll cars either in or out. Once the process is done we remove the prop, set the stairs back down and put the railing back in.

The nice thing about the drive out basements is when the cable guy or the furnace man has to do any work at either house, they pull their trucks up to the garage door, roll their stuff in, and then roll their tools out when they're done. No stairs, no nothing, and it is a lot easier for them.

Yes David can call us nuts because he has firsthand knowledge of our (my dad and I) insanities, but the good thing about it is that David's girlfriend has met us too, so my dad and I have helped make David look normal in the eyes of his girlfriend.

Now every time Andrea tries to tell David that he's nuts, David can say "I'm not like those guys in New York, I'm normal."

[Shop Rat]

Sounds like a great system.

You are probably right, by comparison, David would <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">seem</span></span> normal.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are probably right, by comparison, David would seem normal</div></div> Yeah for a guy who once lived in Wayne County, he's a pretty good dude

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ex98thdrill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yeah for a guy who once lived in Wayne County, he's a pretty good dude </div></div>

Yeah, hard to believe he started out his life as a **gasp** Yankee.

[novaman]

God did make one mistake, I was born on the wrong side of the line. Born a southerner, just took me a little longer to get here.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novaman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

God did make one mistake, I was born on the wrong side of the line. Born a southerner, just took me a little longer to get here. </div></div>

Bill feels the very same way. The stork made the mistake of dropping him off in New Jersey rather than Virginia, where he later lived for several years and fell in love with that state. He would do backflips like NASCAR driver Carl Edwards if I would agree to move over the border.

Sorry, couldn't move away from our mountains.

Hint to anyone not from W. Va. We honestly don't care if you have relatives in Richmond. Read a geography book....please.

[MCHinson]

Susan, we have mountains in NC.... You guys could have mountains and still live in the South...

[Shop Rat]

But see, we have MOUNTAINS and we already live in the south. (Well below the Mason-Dixon line at least.)

[Restorer32]

Ah yes, the Mason Dixon Line or as it's sometimes known locally "The Manson Nixon Line". Our shop is just 8 miles north of the M&D line so I can be in the South in about 10 minutes if I choose. Surprising cultural and language differences between here and Baltimore, just 45 miles South. Sorry, Balmer...I mispronounced

[Guest windjamer]

Hey Reb. lets open anouther can of worms. Lets say I judge class 27j There are ten cars in that class five atempting a first jr. Three of the cars score 380,one scores 369 and the last 359.Why cant I befor turning in the sheets go back to the 369 car and give him a chance to defend the deductions I took?? Ill look for an ans. tonight .I teach firearms safty and I have 50 rug rats wateing for me to start class.

[novaman]

Are you sure you don't ned to go back to the guy with 359 and let him defend his deductions too?

A) If there were enough points that he (even the 369 car)could defend and bring the score high enough to make the the 1st place, you would be talking about issues of something being either right or wrong. If that was the case, the judge taking the points should have been asking the team captain to ask the owner for documention or have given the owner the benefit of the doubt and already not taken a deduction. Therefore most of those points were for either something known to be incorrect or condition.

Maybe you need to go back and let the 380 cars defend thier deduction too. Maybe one of them should have been a 390 car. Now, you've judged that class twice, and if you're at Hershey or one of larger shows, you're now getting done in the middle of the afternoon.

C) The onwer might forget his firearm saftey training.

D) Why not simply give anyone who brings thier car a 1st Jr then you don't need to worry about the score, and everyone will feel all warm and fuzzy when they go home. Affter all, isn't that what we all want, everyone to be happy.

E) Forgot, the guy with the 400 point restoration is now POed because my P.O.S. that would score 360 or lower just got the same award as him and I didn't out any effort/$$ into my car. But that doesn't matter, as long as I'm happy becasue I got my 1st Jr.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Reb. lets open anouther can of worms.</div></div>

Okay.

Lets say I judge class 27j There are ten cars in that class five atempting a first jr. Three of the cars score 380,one scores 369 and the last 359.Why cant I befor turning in the sheets go back to the 369 car and give him a chance to defend the deductions I took??</div></div>

You judge wj, you know the answer to that question.

Okay class, pay attention. "You never go back to a vehicle after you have finished judging it and put the JUDGED sticker on it."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ill look for an ans. tonight .I teach firearms safty and I have 50 rug rats wateing for me to start class. </div></div>

Beware of rats with guns.

[Guest windjamer]

Yes I do Susan, but I thought I thought I would shake up more than just Nova. I guess I have to admit Im a bit of an instagator too. I cant be a rebel, you guys hunt little puppys and call them deer.

[MCHinson]

As long as we are off topic, remember, Not all Southerners are Hunters and not all Hunters are Southerners.

[novaman]

you didn't really shake me, I was trying to point out why it isn't a good policy/procedure, etc. Sometimes I think about the things behind in this case, why you "don't revisit a vehicle that has already been judged".

I'm learned to look at things from a completely opposite view when debating an issue. Like with the ten point rule deal. Everyone usually complains about the "competition". The points system works no different than when you were in grade school and the teacher used a curve to grade. If you had a smart one in the class you knew you were screwed because he/she would get a 100 (400 points)and you wouldn't. But, if you didn't have that person and the top score for the class was a 90 then the teacher marked it as a 100 and everyone within ten points (80 actual score) also got an A on the test. Then the next ten and next ten. In the AACA points system, the same thing is happening with the exception of those getting 2nd or 3rd Jr as the school teacher normal didn't use the top scoring B grade and move everyone else's score up and then take the ten points for the B, and the smae for the C.

I don't understand why nobady can seem to understand it is basicly the same as what was done in school. You took the test, got a score, and the "cookies" fell where they did. You didn't "compete" against your schoolmates. Same for AACA, you get a score based on 400 as the 100, and the cookies fall were the do.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not all Southerners are Hunters and not all Hunters are Southerners</div></div> True. In some parts people go hunting for deer, in your pawt's you go huntin' for cwiminals!!!

[MCHinson]

True...

[darrelldavis]

I support doing away with the ten point rule. The car should stand on its own when competeting for an award. If you go to Hershey where there may be twenty cars in your class it is harder to get a first junior than at say a meet in the west where they have 100 cars total and you may have one other car in your class. The car is the same but the award may be very different.

Also at the AGNM it is harder to get a first GN than a GN Senior.

No other club does this that I know of. If a car makes the score it should get the award. I believe that with the advent of very perfectly restored cars we are chasing away the backbone of our hobby. Look at the attendance at Hershey over the past 15 years. If you remove DPC and HPOF you will be frightened by the numbers.

[charlier]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: darrelldavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I believe that with the advent of very perfectly restored cars we are chasing away the backbone of our hobby. Look at the attendance at Hershey over the past 15 years. If you remove DPC and HPOF you will be frightened by the numbers. </div></div>

The attendance numbers over the last few years at Hershey are interesting. The following numbers were taken from the lists of attendees published in the annual Fall Hershey guide books. The first number is the number of vehicles competing for an award the second number is the total of DPC & HPOF entries and the last number is the total cars on the show field.

2003 = 1275 / 251 = 1526

2004 = 1184 / 251 = 1435

2005 = 1196 / 272 = 1468

2006 = 1024 / 275 = 1299

2007 = 1024 / 258 = 1282

It might be difficult to determine the precise cause for the decline in attendance at Fall Hershey over the last few years.

It would be more interesting to see the attendance numbers prior to 2003 and see if the downward trend is a short term or long term situation.

[ex98thdrill]

It isn't just the fall meet, attendence numbers have dropped during the spring meet as well. But understand that gas prices have probably been as much to blame as well.

As for Hershey, yes you have the selection, but I'm sure the people who buy through E-Bay has impacted Hershey as well.

[charlier]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ex98thdrill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It isn't just the fall meet, attendence numbers have dropped during the spring meet as well. But understand that gas prices have probably been as much to blame as well.</div></div>

For the year 2007, increased fuel prices may have had an impact on attendance.

I am not so sure attendance declines in previous years at Fall Hershey can be attributed to fuel prices.

Gas Prices for Unleaded Regular in October in Eastern, PA. over the last Few years:

- 2003 = 1.549

- 2004 = 1.859

- 2005 = 2.599

- 2006 = 2.159

- 2007 = 2.679

As you can see, gas prices actually declined in 2006 compared to 2005 which also happens to be one of the years of the largest declines in show car attendance at Fall Hershey. At least for 2006 Fall Hershey, fuel prices do not seem to be the leading cause for the decline.

[Guest resq302]

2006 Hershey was the first year they had it on the grass on the old golf course. I think this is the reason why it dropped so bad. Honestly, would you want to park your expensive, highly detailed car on grass that will probably turn to mud once it has the typical Hershey rain? Worse yet, who is responsible if something gets damaged when you have to be towed out because your car sank down to the axles in mud? At least when it was on black top, if it rained, the car only got wet, not muddy.