Woodgraining

[tbirdman]

Here's the woodgraining of the dash. I took two pictures. One with flash and one without. It's hard to capture the correct color. Anyway, I having him redo the other trim pieces. I was not happy with some of the work, and he agreed with me. He had also failed to straight grain the edges of the trim pices as I had instrucuted hom to do. For example the door pieces were straight grain on the top and burled on the side correctly, but the recessed area around the burl part should had been straight grained.

He was going to redo them for free. However since he was so much under budget, I told him I would pay him more to do to the pieces again.

[tbirdman]

Here's another photo takin with flash.

[Tom M]

Ken,

Thanks for posting pictures. The one with flash is it the first picture you posted?

You are a nice guy willing to pay him to fix his mistake.

I have some qoutes from other places but may I ask what did he charge you.

[tbirdman]

The first one was without flash. Using the flash seem to hide the wood grain. His bill was $1065.

You know the guy was very honest with me charging me only for his time. The other guys I had asked for a quotes were double this. I had not even discussed firm pricing with him except that the whole job would probably cost around $2K. If he had charged me $2K initially, I would had not offered to pay. I'm sure he do a bang up job this time. Also let me emphasize, that 99% of the people might have accepted the work as the quality was still pretty good.

[Tom M]

What process did he use?

I had a quote 2 years ago at $200 per molding and the same for the strip that goes above the dash. The dash I can't find that quote. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What process did he use?

I had a quote 2 years ago at $200 per molding and the same for the strip that goes above the dash. The dash I can't find that quote. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

He uses a different process that most other people use. Other people use a roller method which transfer the ink by roller. He indicated the one problem with this process was the ink will fade. He does everything by hand with brushes and automotive paints.

The price on the dash was usually about 1000-1200. He also welded up a light switch hole that someone has put in for the trippe lights. When I was at Hershey most of the quotes were at the $2000 range to do the Packard.

[Rusty_OToole]

He did the job for practically half price and then you busted his chops for a trivial mistake on the kind of grain he used?

Customers like you are the reason I'm glad I'm not in the auto repair business anymore.

[Tom M]

Ken,

The shop that did the metal work on my car has a lady that works for him and she does it by hand also. He gave me a quote also but I need to find that one also. I have it hidden some where in every receipt I have been hording from my restoration. Will need to go thru the receipts someday and discard the ones I don't need.

I knew I had it somewhere. I found it in my lunch box pocket. Here is what the shop quoted me. $375-425 for Dash, $100 for each door, Rear Window and the long piece above dash. Seems like a good price.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He uses a different process that most other people use. Other people use a roller method which transfer the ink by roller. He indicated the one problem with this process was the ink will fade. He does everything by hand with brushes and automotive paints.</div></div>

I've never seen "fading" on jobs done with the roller process using modern paints. The roller process is the way in which was originally done. It's possible he has seen fading of original jobs, which were done with materials that we'd call inferior today.

[Restorer32]

I agree with West. There are all kinds of prices and levels of perfection available in woodgraining. Once again, you get what you pay for. For an absolutely first rate job using the original methods and reproducing the original style graining in the original colors you could expect to pay $1500-2000 for the dash and garnish moldings for an early 30's Packard. Interestingly, the same techniques and materials were used on early cash registers. One of the first fellows to reproduce high quality Packard woodgraining got his patterns and "dies" from his father who was a long term employee of National Cash Register. I've also seen, and judged, cars that had woodgrained contact paper applied to dashes and garnish moldings. Didn't look all that bad actually and was certainly economical.

[West Peterson]

You are referring, of course, to the late Bernie Estes. There were three sets of those woodgrain patterns from NCR, and two of them are known to exist. Both are currently being used to restore antique dashboards (and other custom purposes).

[Restorer32]

Bennie was The Man. We got one of the last dashes he did. He died right after he finished it and it took me over a year to locate a relative (or friend) who finally released it to us. Glad to know those plates are still being used.

[West Peterson]

We must have gotten the second to the last dash that he did. We got it back just before he died. I've never seen more beautiful woodgraining than by him.

A couple of fellows, or at least one, who worked for and learned the process from Estes has purchased the equipment. The business is now called Woodgrain by Estes out of Indiana. The other set of NCR plates is still here in Dayton (home of NCR). They are for sale (or were about six months ago), if anyone is interested in "getting into the business" with original-type equipment.

[Tom M]

Would these be the same type of plates the to company in florida uses?

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He did the job for practically half price and then you busted his chops for a trivial mistake on the kind of grain he used?

Customers like you are the reason I'm glad I'm not in the auto repair business anymore. </div></div>

Since I had given him instructions on what to staight grain and what should be burled it's not a trivial mistake especially since I'm restoring my packard to original specs. I did a lot of research to determine what was correct on a 32 packard and that's what I requested. It wasn't like after the fact I said that should be straight grain without telling him ahead of time.

He also agreed that this work had subpar quality.

I also told him before I started that I'm willing to pay for quality and I chose him based on recommendations and not price. I think most restorers would like working for me as I'm willing to pay for the quality that others expect for free. Also as I mentioned, I will be paying him more even after he did not want to take any additional money.

So tell me aain why you hate working with customers like me that demand quality but also are willing to pay for it?

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with West. There are all kinds of prices and levels of perfection available in woodgraining. Once again, you get what you pay for. </div></div>

I agree with you. That's why I make sure wherever I send stuff to be restore, pricing is a secondary consideration. My interior upholstery is being done by a shop that is considered to be slow and expensive. However no complaints abou their work. My chrome was sent to a shop where the only bad thng I heard was "they are a little prioey".

My selection of the woodgrainer was done by recommendations and also the fact he was local.

[Rusty_OToole]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He did the job for practically half price and then you busted his chops for a trivial mistake on the kind of grain he used?

Customers like you are the reason I'm glad I'm not in the auto repair business anymore. </div></div>

Since I had given him instructions on what to staight grain and what should be burled it's not a trivial mistake especially since I'm restoring my packard to original specs. I did a lot of research to determine what was correct on a 32 packard and that's what I requested. It wasn't like after the fact I said that should be straight grain without telling him ahead of time.

He also agreed that this work had subpar quality.

I also told him before I started that I'm willing to pay for quality and I chose him based on recommendations and not price. I think most restorers would like working for me as I'm willing to pay for the quality that others expect for free. Also as I mentioned, I will be paying him more even after he did not want to take any additional money.

So tell me aain why you hate working with customers like me that demand quality but also are willing to pay for it? </div></div>

I LOVE working for customers who know the difference between cheap work and good work - and are willing to pay for good work.

Customers like you are few and far between. You deserve a medal. I am not joking or jesting in any way.

After working in body shops for 20 years, and doing body and paint jobs plus mechanical work on dozens of collector cars, I don't remember even ONE customer like you.

All the rest expected me to take the bread out of my children's mouths so they could have a play toy. In other words expected a brand new car for the price of an Earl Schieb paint job.

Hope you can forgive me for venting. I like old cars but some of the customers - brother! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[tbirdman]

OK Rusty, I can agree with you. I had a neighbor like that. I also cringe at people that will call parts supplier to milk them for info on fixing the car, but make their part decision on who is the cheapest. Oh the posts that begin, where is the cheapest place for...

But some vendors..Oh boy. I just received something in the mail for my car. The chrome is scratched in multiple places and the piece is bent on one side. I know it was put into the box this way as the box was in perfect shape. I asked specifically if this was a show part. I won't mention who or what it is unless you PM me. Now I have to decide whether I'm going to take it to chrome plater, spend another $400 to get a decent piece or send it back. I also got something a month ago. It came with wrong attachments. I had to sent it back to get it fixed and was never reimbursed for my shipping charges though it wasn't my fault. Or the Packard dealer vendors you call up looking for a part, they say they will look for you and give you a call back. Then they never call back. This beef runs both ways. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Restorer32]

We're into our 29th year in the resto biz and we've seen all kinds of customers. Some of the cheapest have been the wealthiest. One customer in particular stands out. We did three cars for him and all three won Grand National Firsts but I swear he would have been just as happy if he could have stolen the trophies. At the other extreme we're finishing the second vehicle for a customer whom I have never met or even spoken to by phone. He had his gardener arrange to have the cars restored. We submit bills to his accountant and they are paid. In general most of our customers have been great to work for but now and then they can really test your patience. Best folks to work for are those who are knowledgeable about their cars and have done a bit of restoration work themselves. They understand how long it takes to do decent work. Now and then a customer will ask if they can take parts home with them to work on. We usually give them a wire wheel to sand. Not one has ever come back asking for another wheel to work on.

[Joe Block]

I am curious, what shop did you use and when, would they consider doing the wood grainer for others, or is this a deal because it part of a bigger project.

thanks

[Tom M]

Yes he does wood graining for others. I can call him if you like to let him know that you may be interested in using him.

His info

Dan McMahon

International ?Auto Restoration-

Oak Lawn, Illinois

Phone 708-422-9465

I don?t think it was a deal since I already had him do some work me. That was just his price if I had him do all the parts that needed it. His said it is a package deal if you have more then one part done.

[tbirdman]

Well picked up the trm pieces today. They guy had already left for his 4 month stay in AZ. Before I picked them up he told me he was not happy with the trim pieces and wants to do them over when he returns in May. He said he was rusking and they sisn't turn out right to his satisfaction. However the dash doors came out much better. So I'll be taking the 3 trim pieces back to him in May.

Also I went to a local chrome shop today to see what they could do on the reproduction piece of trim I had bought. They laughed and agreed that it was terrible quality. They advised me just to send it back and get my money returned.

[Guest box]

What were the trim pieces and from what supplier ?

kurt

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What were the trim pieces and from what supplier ?

kurt </div></div>

Yeska and it was a stone guard. However no problem with the return process.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I was curious also, but now I'm Really Surprized, the one I got from Henry, about 6 years ago, for the 626, was very good quality and condition and it still looks great. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I thought you desided not to put one on the '32 ? I really don't think it needs one, does it? Since the '32 has such a Great looking grille without it. They sure make it more difficult to keep the grille-shutters clean. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was curious also, but now I'm Really Surprized, the one I got from Henry, about 6 years ago, for the 626, was very good quality and condition and it still looks great. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I thought you desided not to put one on the '32 ? I really don't think it needs one, does it? Since the '32 has such a Great looking grille without it. They sure make it more difficult to keep the grille-shutters clean. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Couples of things were wrong. First there were tiny scratches in various places plus some larger ones. The frame was bent about 20% on one side. The hole at the bottom looked like a hammer was used to pound it into shape. Some of the curves looked like they were formed with a pair of metal snips. Since my grill had chrome that was not up to my standard, I was going to use the stone guard to hide it. I agree that the car looks better without the stone guard. I heard to do these right is very difficult. When I talked with the plating guy, they said they have a guy that will disassemble the grill, they plate it, and he reassembles them. Unfortunately he's only around during the driving season. I want this stuff done during the winter time when I'm not driving. They said they have another guy who could possibly do it during the winter. I'll wait until next Nov to decide on this. I decided it was too much to chew off this winter. I also took the grill to some other people to make sure I wasn?t to critical. The vote was unanimous-send it back.

I figure I was going to get a rash of stuff from all you guys who didn't like the stone guard on the 32. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I did get a set of Pilot Rays and those do look beautiful.