1917 Packard Twin Six series 2-25, 4 Pass. Runabout

[partancient]

I recently acquired an unrestored, untouched 1917 Packard Twin Six series 2-25, 4 Pass. Runabout "cloverleaf roadster". This car was in dry storage and has remained untouched since 1946. I would like to make contact with other twin-six Packard owners. I especially need to find a complete windshield assembly. Find and/or identify the correct horn. I have the proper speedometer, however it is missing its bezel and/or cover. I believe that I have the proper top-socket assembly, but could use help with its identification. This car came factory equipped with 25inch Rudge-Whitworth wire wheels. I believe that the hub size is 72mm. I am looking for at least 2 spare rims and/or wheel hub-centers. Thank you, Glenn

[olcarherb]

Sounds Great.....How 'bout posting some pictures??????????? We always like seeing ORIGINAL, Unrestored, Unmolested cars. Try Jim Brodes in Arizona. He knows them well. And I believe Walter Miller (the literature guy) in Syracuse NY also has one. Both are AACA and HCCA members.

[Mark Shaw]

Check with Howard Musolf in HCCA. He restored one and has since sold it.

Mark Shaw

[Joe Block]

Good Luck with you new find, me I got a couple of 42 180 taking my time, but i would love to have teenage Packard one day. I got a line on a early Alvis (it English roadster)

[Bill Boudway]

Hi,

Please contact me about your Twin Six.

I have copies of literature available for the Twin Sixes.

We're restoring a 1919 3rd series 7-passenger solon touring

Bill Boudway

Canandaigua, NY

(585) 394-6172

gnbboudway@msn.com

Hershey Space # C2I-44 in the Chocolate Field

[alsfarms]

This is an interesting line of chat regarding early Packard stuff. I noticed some farmer did a nice job of installing an "F" series Farmall tractor radiator in front of the stock rad. on your chassis. You did catch my attention when you mentioned a line on an early Alvis roadster. I am working towards a TA series Alvis DHC and would like to network with other owners. They seem to be a very quiet bunch. Drop a pic. of the Alvis if you can.

Regards, Alan

[Ivan Saxton]

You are likely to find that your Rudge Whitworth wheels are 100mm. This refers to the maximum possible bearing diameter that the hubs can take. My third series project has Rudges 100's. Much came from a runabout that was found under a shed with a fallen tree across the car; and the people who found it 50 or 60 years ago did not have the same understanding of what you can reasonably restore as we have today. Some Packard early series Sixes of the 20's used Rudge 80's, the same size as Mercer and A model Duesenberg. Cunningham and some V61 and earlier Cadillac had really huge ones, probably 120mm. Those for most US cars were made under licence by Standard Roller Bearing.

Some of the better and more powerful English cars used a size that Fred and Augie Duesenberg, with their eye and instinct for proportion would never have dreamed of doing. Three and even 4 1/2 litre Bentleys only used 62mm, and there has been expensive manufacturing activity for years overcoming the wear problems. In actual fact, the fine splines are not what you should rely on for drive and braking. A fellow near here quite a while ago had a Delage that had bad wheel/hub troubles. This was very simply corrected by cutting a thin copper sheet ring for each hub from a discarded hot water service cylinder, annealing, slipping on the hub and deforming them to the inner cone with a wheel. The problem apparently arises because the material of hub and wheel centre are the same or near enough; and they move so very slightly and fret. Put a slice of ham in the sandwich-- ie copper, which is softer: and the steel grips the copper from both sides, and does not wear. I hope my explanation makes sense to you. The method works.

Rudge 100's are pretty tough to find. Rolls Royce sometimes used them early on, and I got a pair from a Ghost front axle at Bendigo swap, and gave away the axle rather than carry it half a mile by hand. I ahve enough for the Twin 6, and enough for the two 6 litre 6 cylinder cuff-valve Peugeots which I can restore if I copy a few parts. These are very rare now too, unfortunately, because they only built about 180. You might be lucky if you contact Depanoto or advertise in Spain. The owner of the restored car in France got a spare engine from there. Apart from what Jean-Pierre has, and mine, nothing else has come to light in the last 50 years.

[Layden B]

Catalog shows 52,62,72,80,100, and 120 MM size centers. I have seen this car and they are quite rare 72 MM size, probably the largest size available at that time.

[Ivan Saxton]

I do realise that Layden has had a lot of Stutz material pass through his hands, and some of the 4 cyl cars a bit earlier than the one I have used one of the larger RW sizes. To give a better understanding of the differences I am attaching images of an early 62mm short (1911 Lancia), 72mm Short from a small Minerva, 80mm long from Duesenerg, and 100mm long Packard Twin Six rear. I did not trouble to remove 52mm from Tipo Zero Fiat, or 90mm long from a spare Isotta Franchini axle.

Rulers on top of the 72mm and 100mm hubs show the size difference. The inner taper roller bearing of the Packard front wheel has a 3 1/2 " cup OD, which might be hard to fit in a 72mm hub.

(The Duesenberg hub is a really odd one. Joe Kaufmann sold me some parts that were sopposed to be A model, but the beautiful set of top timing gears, though Duesenberg, will not fit. And there bare parts including a multi-plate clutch which are likely to be from a car with a transaxle, probably remains from one of the 1919 300 cu" Indianapolis straight 8 racing cars. A Duesenberg had one-piece axle shaft/hub, bored right through and I guess plugged to retain the oil. I have not dismantled the rear axle of my car.)

For people who restore for show, there is a difference between English RW, which have a 70 spoke pattern, and most SRB made wheels which have 72 spokes with less pairs in the outer row. A judge would pick this by eye if they knew to look, but of the general public possibly only small boys would notice.

Ivan Saxton

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/hubs01.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/hubs02.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/hubs03.jpg

[CASTLE]

Rudge wire wheel hubs--check number of splines, --- measure spline dia "52mm" 88 splines 72.85mm dia,"62mm" 100 splines 82.60mm dia., "72mm" 112 splines 91.9mm dia, "80mm" 124 splines 101.6mm dia sizes 90,100 and 120 were apparently "specials for US. I think size 90 spline dia is 140mm. size 100 spline dia is 180mm, size 120 spline dia is ?? dia. I am guessing your hubs, if Rudge, would be in 80mm or below. Oh to further complicate the matter there are several lengths of hubs and shells for each size. I have some "62mm" and "52mm" if you want to check measurements. Specialised Automotive Services in England is probably the best source of new wheels, hubs,rims snaprings I just bought a set of four wheels -- they are perfect. Try www.wirewheels.co.uk

good luck

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