Overheating

[Guest 51Patty400]

I had the water pump rebuild and put it back on the car. I drained the rad and refilled with new 50/50 coolant.

It idles fine at 50% temp, but as soon as I drive it a bit it jumps to 75% temp and a bit higher if I continue to drive.

What the FRIG is my problem with the heat? I don't know the "norm" as I haven't had the car long enough.

Will be testing the thermostat tomorrow.

- Mark

51 Patrician 400

[Guest Albert]

If the thermostat checks out ok, ther is three other possable problems, 1 plugged up rad, 2, rust sludge in the engine block, 3 the brass water distrubtion tube has broken, this runs from the back of the engine to the front right behind the water pump. My 54s run run between the E-M in Temp in both city driving and on the highway, even at speeds of 80mph.

[RO]

Going back in time a few years, I had a running hot problem with the '53 Clipper Deluxe. Had 160 'stat in it, cleaned radiator. I had to have the engine flushed out, which included removing the water distribution tube. The distribution tube was somewhat clogged towards the back of the engine. Had that done plus one of those changed pitch fans from someone in the PAC club. Much better now, but still in hot summer weather, the car does NOT like slow or stop/go driving. In this car I used only water, that Redline water wetter heat transfer enhancer, and No-Rosion. There have been an occassion or two where I put a shroud around the fan and that helps somewhat. The reason I went with straight water is, that yes, using antifreeze will raise the boiling point, but I wanted the car to run cooler, and water alone has a higher heat capacity and thermal conductivity. The car is garaged in the winter, so no problem with freezing over those months. But when my engine was flushed out with high pressure steam, a layer of crud maybe 1/4" thick was dissolved.

[Guest]

Consider looking at the fan belt also. The one on my '47 when I bought it seemed OK but the car ran quite warm similar to yours. I decided to buy a replacement and discovered that the old one was incorrect and rode too high on the pullies. when I installed the new one which sat lower in the pullies the temperature dropped and the generator charges much better.

[Guest BigKev]

On one of my other cars I had a similar problem and it was caused by an air trapped in the cooling system. This can cause issues with coolant flow in the block.

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Try a complete flush with the "number 7" Bordens brand cooling system cleaner. It is a two part dry powder that you add to an empty system, then add water, run engine until it is up to temp, then neutralize with the second powder. Back flush after that, and watch the crud come out of your engine block. Follow the advice of the others and check/clean the distribution tube. Replace all your hoses after this, make sure to flush out the heater core (if so equipped). I have never heard the yarn about plain water having better heat transfer than antifreeze/coolant. I believe this to be an old wives tale as incorrect as can be. Try this: take a sauce pan, fill it halfway with measured, plain tap water and put it on the stove to boil. time (to the second) how long it takes that pot to boil. Repeat that test after the pan has cooled, but add 2-3 shakes of salt from a table saltshaker. The water will come to a rolling boil MUCH faster with just a little salt added. Why? improved heat transfer. Modern coolant/antifreeze will absolutely give the optimal transfer of heat when used properly. This means a 50/50 mix with water--that is how it's formulated to work. Resist human nature--straight antifreeze/coolant is NOT as effective as the 50/50 mix. This will also prevent corrosion of the cooling passages, and your freeze plugs. I have heard of many cars in warm weather states (where C&W music is popular) that are routinely run on water, and they are always a challenge re: cooling vs. age. Be sure to dump and replace the coolant/water mix in your collector car every three years or so. All coolants loose their ability to resist corosion with age.

Some engines never really are happy re: cooling until the engine is rebuilt, during which the block and heads are (hopefully) chemically stripped. I helped a buddy rebuild his '38 Buick engine. Before the rebuild,it ran ok for short jaunts, but would get pissed if you drove at freeway speeds (55-65 mph) then get off the freeway and travel on a slower traffic surface street. Looking inside the cylinder head (after dissasembly) the cooling passages resembled a rust-cavern. You could poke a screwdriver into that rust-shale more than 1/32". The block and heads came back from the Chem-strip place spotlessly clean, just perfectly clean cast iron. The rebuilt engine ran beautifully, came up to temp and held that temp no matter what--fast, slow, highway, parade. steady as a rock. It is a common practice today to paint the freshly stripped cooling passage areas with epoxy primer (DP-90) prio to assembly. Just brush it on. A few mils of E-primer won't affect heat transfer, and retard future corrosion.

[Guest]

Cars of that era DID NOT OVER HEAT when properly maintained. These fellows have given you some good "tips". Getting the engine block interior clean is going to be a bit of work, but if you do it right, and get the water tube right, and the head boiled out, you WILL have solved that portion of the overheating issue.

Radiators can be difficult to really get clean, even when "rodded". You arent going to like this, but the best way to be SURE you arent EVER going to over-heat again, is get your radiator re-cored. You are looking at several hundred dollars, but it may well be necessary. Why ? Radiators in service, especially as they get older, are not treated to the mixture of 50% anti-freeze and 50% de mineralized water that is necessary to keep corrosion from thickening your tube walls, which in turn limits the ability to radiate heat.

By the time your car was designed, radiator technology was highly developed. Set it up right, and your car will NOT over-heat. Promise !

[joe kastellic]

I have used an infared thermometer over the years to pin point "hot spots" this a great little tool you simply aim and shoot and you get the temp. reading, most have a scale from -25 to 999. They were orig. very expensive but they can be purchased for a low price 30.00 -100.00 . Thry can diaganose a number of problems, not just cooling, you can even find a engine miss by finding the cool clyinder. This can be used for brakes by finding the wheel that runs hot therefore not releasing the pad or shoe take care Joe

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Distributor timing being too advanced and Carburetor being adjusted too Lean, can both contribute to Overheating, also.

[Guest 51Patty400]

I had the carb rebuilt just before winter. Now I have this problem. I will have to look at this too. Haven't had time to check the T-stat yet but its on tomorrows to-do list.

Thx everyone for the help. Wish i'd bought that NOS rad on ebay for $500 now..lol

- Mark

[Guest Albert]

Mark, did you make it up to Barrie this weekend? We went up friday night and camped out there for the weekend with the house trailer. We made it up and back with no overheating problems, she did get real hot needle just touching the "M" and that was with some weight behind it, we also got some major looks as well going up the highway even from the truckers. see pic

[Guest BigKev]

That's a picture you don't see very often today. A car towing anything of substance. Makes me think back to the movies from the 50's where you see cars of the era towing Jet Streams out on Route 66. Or what was that Dezi and Lucy movie where they towed a trailer across county.

Is that an Ultramatic in your Packard?

[Guest Albert]

Yes i have an Ultramatic in the car but i have added an extra transmission oil cooler on it that i picked up off a truck, that seems to work good, I towed it from out new house to barrie and back about 240 miles. I also picked up a few speedo convertes at the flea market to go from MPH to KPH, they screw onto the back of the speedo and now my speedo was showing 110 on the way back home.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thx everyone for the help. Wish i'd bought that NOS rad on ebay for $500 now..lol

- Mark </div></div>

Mark, I am pretty sure that you can get your rad flushed out and if necessary a new core for less than $500 at any reputable rad shop. I took mine to a local place which specializes in rads for industrial equipment. They replaced the core and used the original tanks for about $400CDN, The owner of the shop told me that the rad was "out of a bulldozer or something" not a car. I don't think he ever had a Packard in his shop or he would have known better. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Twitch]

That was 'The Long, Long Trailer' I was was the title.......

[FRANKL]

I brought this thread back around because i am having temperature problems since the hot weather hit. temp runs about 60 percent of the gauge while driving at regular speeds. however it elevates to around 90 percent in stop and go driving in the heat. it hasn't boiled over but i can tell it is hot. i guess i need to get the actual temp measured so i know where my gauge is.

a couple of weeks ago i used prestone super flush and then back flushed the engine. i also put in a temp reducing additive. it seemed better until i was in some stop and go the other day in aboyut 90 degrees and it went to the top of the gauge. it came right back down after i was able to get moving again.

i took out the radiator today and brought it to a shop to have it boiled out. they run a hot acidic solution through it for an hour or two to clean it. he measured the flow before he boiled and it was around 36 quarts per minute. after he boiled it it was around 55. he said this was good. however, i put it back in and let the car idle fo about 30 minutes and the temp kept climbing until it was about 75 percent. i think it would have been better if i was driving because the temp climbed very slow however i still don't feel comfortable.

i asked the guy if it would help to get a 5 blade fan. he said he recomends getting a smaller 4" pulley to increase fan speed. this sounds good in theory as it would also increase the flow of the water pump. i wonder if this would create problems for the water pump?

any suggestions, comments? i'm going to call a few local scrap yards but any idea on the sourse for a smaller pulley?

thanks

[jrbartlett]

The radiator cleanout job sounds very worthwhile. But have you checked your ignition timing yet? Sounds to me like it (a) could be retarded according to the initial specs, or ( the vacuum advance may not be working.

At this point I'd check both before doing anything else. And yes, I've seen chronic overheating caused by a timing issue.

Also, I think a restricted muffler can cause overheating, but you should be able to detect this from other indicators as well, such as poor acceleration.

[Twitch]

My 50 runs at like 75-80 % hot when long time idling and it hasn't gotten hot here yet. I plan to take it to my radiator and A/C guys who work on lots of classics to get it cleaned out. Since I got the car I have not gotten to this yet but even though I don''t feel like it is running excessively hot, it is a standard thing I do on most all cars I own as when I first get them or after many miles of motoring. I'm not going to fret if it later runs at a steady 80% even when hot though. That's not overheating.

I read somewhere that cars of the era weren't made to sit and idle like todays do. I agree. I think 30 minutes at idle is excessive that we wouldn't have done it normally in 1949. An increase from 36 to 55 qts flow is a whopping 53% increase! I feel a temp needle riding at 75% is nice and not too hot at all no matter what car it is. That's my 2¢<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[6219_Rules]

I have read through this thread, and agree with the points made herein. I know I don't own a Packard, and yes I am a Cadillac lover, but that does not mean I do not recognise the superiority of the Packard car, nor that I do not admire them, all of them, from the Brass era to the pre-war majesty, through to the post-war modernism and the struggling 1950s when so much that was good, even incredible, was detracted from by poor management and changing tastes. I want to thank all of you for allowing me to post an occasional thought here...even to join in on the fun.

My experience with overheating (as I have posted before) is that it is a multiple point failure.

What I was advised to do with my 1947 347cid flathead, was to first, have the engine completely flushed if it has not been opened or worked on recently; this cleared out several <span style="font-style: italic">gallons</span> of sludge from inside clearing out water channels and oil channels that heretofore had been clogged. Secondly, have the radiator checked, recored and possibly improved by adding to the available tanks in the architecture; this was done and improved the amount of available coolant by 21% in my case. Thirdly, have the water pump restored by a known expert. I know this sounds silly in print, but I had three redone that ultimately failed until Walt Brewer in Denver rebuilt one for me. It was solid and worked perfectly; the problem was there are tricks with older designs that many younger rebuilders may not know when reassembling the units. In my case, this was what caused the pump to fail. And finally, check the thermostat, hoses, clamps and attachment ends for rust, leaks, weakness and possible splits. There was one or two of those that new hoses did not fix and cause leakage when under pressure, so I never saw the loss.

All of the above cost me $280 in 2000 US dollars. Not a bad price for never having another overheating issue again in spite of moving from below sea level in Houston, to 4000+ feet and above. When driving the car (I drove it a lot as a daily) in the heat of summer on the Front Range (90+) without it ever raising more than a half a point. Timing was not an issue for me, but the carb was in very poor shape so I doubt it played a major role, still it is something for many reasons to repair.

Good luck with this issue. I know when you get it righted, you will have no end of enjoyment driving your Packard about as was meant to be. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BigKev]

Have you checked your water pump? It may have all kinds of sludge that may be jammed around it after you back flushed. You may want to back flush it again. I have seen cases where sludge can move from one part of the engine and bind up in another after what was thought to be a good back flush.

Also check to make sure that the thermostat is good. If not replace the thermostat with the correct type. I know earlier models used a type that had a bigger opening then some of the more modern types, and over the years people have swapped these without understanding the differences on flow.

Well if you can't figure out what the problem is, you could always cheat and stick an electric fan in front of the radiator. That should help keep the coolant cool at idle. But that wont help much if you have a in-block flow problem.

I plan on running and electric fan in front of the radiator to help out when I sit in traffic. For the most part, people wont even know its there. Since the engine mounted fan turns slower at idle. This helper fan will come-on when need to keep the ol'girl from boiling over.

The only other thing I could think of to help would be to shroud the engine fan. Summit, and JC Whitney sell universal type shrouds. With a shroud you are sucking more are through the radiator rather then from around the edges of the fan. Path of least resistance.

Oh well that was my 2 cents. I am sure other will have different opinions, good, bad or indifferent.

[WCraigH]

51Patty400:

What I haven't heard about your diagnostics is that you've installed a seperate mechanical temp gauge to determine the actual temp. Observing 50%+ indicated temp doesn't really tell the story, does it?

Modern engines can run at 210F or more. There's nothing mechanically different in the older engines to cause one concern about this temp or more.

[Ron Green]

A simple often overlooked item is the radiator cap itself. Do a pressure check on it to make sure it is holding, if its not the boiling point of the coolant will be lowered. Also check the radiator neck the cap screws to. Sometimes it has crud or if painted it may chip off which won't allow the cap sell seal, thus reducing pressure and boiling points. This happened to me last year.

Beware if using a electric fan as sometimes they actually restrict the air flow as they block a fair amount of radiator fins pending their rated air flow.

[FRANKL]

thanks for all the tips and i'll check them all out this weekend. i know the timing is correct but the carb may need adjustment. the idle is a little high. the cap is new but i'll make sure it is seating correctly. i did notice the overflow tube has a dent but does allow fluid to pass.

i think big kev might have a point on the flow through the thermostat. i just changed it and it is definitely different from the original type. i'll remove it for now to see if it has an effect. i also will remove the water pump to see if it is blocked. maybe i can do a better backflush of the head without it on. also, several people mentioned the water tube in the head earlier in the thread. can it be removed for cleaning with the water pump removed?

i'll try all these basics before resorting to changin blade, pulleys or adding fans.

thanks again

[Guest]

Frank L; One other thing for thought. Look at your hoses from the block to the rad. Do both of them have the spiral wires in them. If they don't one might be get sucked down in size, thus causing less water flow.

[Guest 51Patty400]

Update:

Found 2 crimps in the transmission lines, one in and one out. Those have been replaced. I installed a 12"x12" tranny cooler rad. Removed themostat completely. Flushed the engine 4 times then once with a compresser attached to the water. Replaced the hoses and the rad cap. New 3 core NOS Heavy Duty radiator arrviing this week. Rear drums are slightly warped so they need to be turned.

If this doesn't work then anyone want a 51 Patrician CHEAP! lol

- Mark <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Albert]

Mark we are working on things one thing at a time, I may have another set of drums to fit your 51, I got them off a 52 convertable a number of years ago but they dont fit any of my cars, when i get out to the new house later I will check on the dimensions and check my parts book to make sure. I have been working on clearing out the back yard the past 2 weeks, and got the 2 cars and the trailer as well as the 3 air compressors at the new house now, the one that was in the storage room is now hooked up and running, just have to see if i can get the BIG diesel (210 cfm @110psi) one started so I can do the sand blasting of the frame for the 54 Panama. Then replace the bent one in the Panama after i switch over all the mechanical parts.

[FRANKL]

update

i removed the water pump yesterday and did not find any blockage. i also removed the water tube in the head which was pretty easy after i figured out there is a mounting plate between the pump and the engine. also have to remove the grill. none of the holes were blocked but there was some heavy scale in the back of the tube whick i cleaned. i backflushed the head from 3 different points and quite a bit of junk came out. i also removed the thermostat. the opening on it was only about 3/4 inch and the tube it sits in is is 1-1/2 inch so it restricted the flow quite a bit. i think this may have been a big part of the problem along with the blockage in the radiator. i'll try to get an original style for the fall if it has a larger opening.

i took it for a long ride yesterday and the temp gauge stayed almost dead center. it was almost 90 degrees so this is quite an improvement. i'll have to keep an eye on it but so far so good. knock on wood.

[Guest BigKev]

I'm glad to see the extra flushing and the thermostat trick worked. I found this out watching a show called "Classic Car Restoration" on the DIY network. There were doing a rolling restoration on a '30s 120, and they noted it was very common for people to replace the thermostats with the more modern type that was more restrictive and could cause flow problems.

I belive Max Merit caries the original style ones.

[Guest 51Patty400]

Is your avator a pic of the new place?

Got the rad in today. It's 2-core, has a spacer. It actually looks smaller than the current one. Part number on it is 1A5484 Modine (was told its a HD rad from a '54 ambulance)

Can anyone ID this?

- Mark

[Ron Green]

Typically a HD radiator would be a 3 or 4 core. Many standard radiators have 3 cores. It would be hard to believe that a ambulance, police car, etc would have a 2 core. Can't help you with the # ID.

[Guest Albert]

Yes Mark the Pic is of the new place, Sounds like the rad you got was for the Junior 54 ambulance and not the senior. The juniors used the smaller rad but i will check the numbers on the rad used on my 288ci motor as i think its the same, I also found and extra rod you are missing between the throttle and your transmission. The original rads seem to be all 2 cores, juniors being about 3" narrower than the seniors, when I had mine recored they made it into a 3 core.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

A friend has a '53 Hardtop, that he drives often, that had an overheat problem in traffic, until he added an electric fan, which fixed the problem. The main problem is that the Fan is about 10 times Louder than the engine. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

It had been converted to 12.volts for the addition of the Fan and an AC system.

If you're going to be driveing often, here in Texas, you really need those 2 items. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest 51Patty400]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, new rad is in, tranny cooler is in. Tranny filled, rad filled with coolant 50/50.

I ran on the street and highway. If I can keep the air flow it runs hot but never made me stop. (temp gague between P and -)

However, I am BOILING the coolant now. (*new*) It comes out of the overflow pipe as white capachino foam. 15 minute run boils off 6 litres.

Going out of my mind. Someone told me to put a 180 thermostat in it. It has nothing right now.

I really need help. I am truly out of ideas.

- Mark

51 Patrician 400

[Guest BigKev]

Have you checked your timing? I know that if your timing is off it can make your motor run hotter. Also if our running to lean that can cause increase temps.

Not sure if this helps of not, but I had a problem with the coolant super heating on my Honda and it was due to Cylinder 1 leaking exhaust pressure into the coolant. AKA bad head gasket. Basically it would add a lot of extra presure and heat to the coolant and it would overflow so much coolant that it would start overheating. I found this out my taking off the radiator cap (when the motor was cool) and starting the engine. Then I could see small bubbles in the coolant from the leaking cylinder pressure. Well not sure if this could happen on a Packard Motor the same way. Once I changed the head gasket all was good.

Just trying to throw some ideas out.

[Guest bkazmer]

coolant cappuchino sounds like head gasket

[Ron Green]

Typically a vehicle will overheat without having a thermostat installed from my experiences. Try putting one in as it won't cost much plus make sure your radiator cap holds the correct pressure. I assume the timing is correct as that will cause overheating along with clasped hoses after they get hot.

[Joe Block]

Check your lower raditor hose, sometimes if there soft, they collapse and restrict the water flow. Remeber some of the older cars has wire coiled inside the raditor hoses.

Joe.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Some "modern" thermostats don't open up as much as the older ones. A tip from hotrodders is to put a restrictor plate where the Tstat goes - just a plain brass plate with a hole drilled in it to slow the movement of water to allow it to pick up the heat from the engine. Running with nothing there when the engineers designed it for a certain water flow is bound to cause trouble. I do like the Tstats in the older Packards - opened a large flap for water passage.

[Guest 51Patty400]

Thanks for the help everyone, Been a great guide to getting this solved.

I discovered the new rad has a longer neck then the old one, so a nice "o" ring and TA-DA, no more coolant loss. Flushed the motor again, couldnt believe how much MORE gunk came out (5th flush now)

Ran it on hwy 401 for 3 hrs to Lakefield and then back to Toronto the next day. Ran hot but ran fine.

Next is suspension and the rear drums.

- Mark