3800 engines usage

[GSTURBO]

In today,s Buick Local 599 paper.These guys know their time is limited but they can at least let people know how many cars depend on these engines.

[GSTURBO]

I cant get picture to work but the article told the cars that use this engine. Chevy Impala & Monte Carlo; Pont Grand Prix,& Bonneville; Buick Lesabre,Regal,& Park Ave. Plus soon, Buick LaCrosse

[SBRMD]

What a great engine!

Did the article indicate how long the 3800 is currently slated for production?

[Barney Eaton]

Did the article tell how many total 3800 engines have been built in Flint?

What is the paper name and date and I will try and view it on line.

[BUICK RACER]

Barney, the newsletter is located Here

There is a 1/4 page ad for the 3800, I'm not sure if this is what Norb is referring to, it may be in the next newsletter, which hasn't been posted to the web yet.

[86 2dr.ltd]

I'd like to see that figure Barney, can you imagine ? Thats got to be one of the largest numbers in the auto industry. Woa, lots of cars !

[GSTURBO]

I cant find the figures for all time but in 2002, 603,560 3800 engines were built

[NTX5467]

Of that number of engines, how many were installed in North America (USA & Canada) and how many went to Australia or to other GM plants worldwide? Just curious.

Thanks,

NTX5467

[Guest imported_DaveZZZ]

I've mentioned the wife's 99 Regal GS here before. That is such a great engine, I don't understand why they would kill it. From what I have read of the new 6 to be used in the LaCrosse, it produces less power for roughly the same economy.

Consider this: That Regal weighs at least as much as my brother's 99 Mustang GT, and despite being wrong, I mean front wheel drive, out accelerates it and gets a solid 40% better mileage. If you ask me, GM should keep the engine and be bragging about how the competition needs V8s to match the power and still can't get the economy.

Here's a question for this knowledgeable group: Is the 3800 SC the best V6 commercially available, based on the following criteria: power:weight, total HP, total TQ, and economy?

-Dave

[NTX5467]

Right now, GM has several engines in the 240-260 horserpower range. The older, but more recent, 3800 SC engines were 240 and the one in the 2004 Grand Prix has 260 due to some tweaks of various components. The new 3.6L DOHC V-6 in the CTS and the LaCross sport model is in the 250-260 horse range too, yet the prior "ShortStar" 3.5L V-6 in the Intrigue and Aurora was more like 215 horsepower. And then there's the LS engine family with the 4.8L and 5.3L V-8s, one of which might end up in a future front wheel drive GM car. Too many choices?

The main difference might be minimal with respect to power, but not when the customer demographics of the various vehicles is considered. No problem with putting a Chevy V-8 in a Grand Prix, for example, but with Buick officially heading up into Lexus territory, it needs to have the "High Feature" GM V-6 to compete with the DOHC engines that Lexus has in their vehicles-- a cam-in-block engine will not cut it when compared to the more upscale cam-in-head motors in those price classes. Unfortunately, even the old Intrigue 3.5L was a quieter running motor than the typical 3800.

As the LaCrosse is set up, the normal versions will have the 200 horsepower 3800 with electronic throttle control. It makes a fantastic powerplant for the similar Grand Prix so it should serve well in the lower levels of LaCrosse. The sporting model will need a little extra cache, so the 3.6L V-6 will be in it. Double OHC with Variable Valve Timing on all 4 camshafts (40 degrees of variance on the intake side, 50 degrees of variance on the exhaust side--if it's the same as the NorthStar V-8).

Therefore, it's not so much about how technically good an engine is, it's more about the target market and what is expected in particular market segments if Buick is going to expand its customer base with "conquest sales" to prior owners of other vehicles. AND then keeping them once they get them. Getting them in the door is the hard and critical part.

Personally, the old 4.9L V-8 Cadillacs did the job just as well as the NorthStar cars do, functionally, but whatever "high tech" orientation that it might have had as a full aluminum V-8 "back then" has vanished and the expectation was for bunches of valves/cylinder and cam-in-head architecture. The other consideration is that 4 valves/cylinder engines can easily have the same power output as a supercharged engine of similar size. Both supercharged and DOHC engines have their own unique packaging issues, though. Just depends on what the marketplace tends to demand.

The current 3800 Buick V-6 is an excellent engine in so many respects--especially power vs. fuel economy AND reliability AND longevity, whether in a rear wheel drive late model Camaro or Firebird or the multitude of front wheel drive GM vehicles. At some point in time, though, tooling must be replaced and that also raises the possibility that "something different" might need to be done to keep current with market trends and orientations.

There's also a multitude of high performance information/equipment out for that engine too. Seems like there a www.3800performance.com (or similar) website that even gets into the ins and outs of drag racing the newer GM front wheel drive cars with the 3800 V-6s in them! Lots of great information on how the engine management system operates too!

Even if the 3800 does go out of production at some date in the future, there will still be plenty of them around in cars that are still worth driving and enjoying--MANY BUICKS TOO!

By the way, I finally watched the Barret-Jackson Palm Beach auction, which I taped. The Buick Park Avenue Ultra show cars looked great. Dropping the suspension about an inch really made the lines on those cars work! With the 3800 SC motor, those cars can be some real sleepers. Just as in the old days, nice as (or nicER than) a Cadillac, less expensive to own (purchase, fuel economy, AND maintenance), and fun when you add that extra bit of throttle to the motor.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[GSTURBO]

I am holding the lacrosse dealer catalog and they have three models.CX,CXL & CXS. The CXS has fog lamps,3600 eng (240 HP)& 17 in. alum wheels,full range traction control,gran touring suspension & different steering.Also stabilitrak.I think everything else is the same as the CXL.It still resembles the Regal but is a nice update.You may buy it in Sept.

[NTX5467]

I admit I was working from memory on the power output on the new 3.6L V-6 in the LaCrosse. Seems like it's more like I quoted in the CTS automatic trans base engine? Either way, still lots of engines in the same horsepower range from one manufacturer.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest imported_DaveZZZ]

Aha, I do see your point, but I wasn't so much thinking about the HP, as the torque, especially down low. That's what makes that engine shine, and that is what most of these modern engines lack. What is it they say? HP wins races, but TQ sells cars. To most drivers, and this includes those like me who normally drive nice and easy, but occasionally allow the devil to take the wheel when the mood strikes, it is the pull of the low end torque that is FUN. I have never, and will never, engage in a freeway race against some Honda, which is where the high revving OHC engines shine.

As I said, I see your point on the expectations of customers, but then, I would think that you could score a lot of points by advertising the fact that while other manufacturers chase customers with gimmicks, Buick is still building an engine that really delivers. This could tie in nicely with a revival of "When Better Cars are Built, Buick Will Build Them."

My experience with high rev, high HP OHC engines is that you have to wind them til they sound like vacuum cleaners to get any satisfaction, and that is not how I like to drive.

-Dave

[HurstGN]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This could tie in nicely with a revival of "When Better Cars are Built, Buick Will Build Them."

</div></div>

How about a new beginning instead of a revival....

I could see a TV commercial like this:

Tout the quality and reliability of of recent Buicks that are being phased out. Have somewhat slower, somber music playing in the background.

{fade to announcer with lettering on the screen}

A better car has been built...

And Buick is building them...

Now!

{Abruptly begin new fast paced music} show all the new models coming to replace the old and the announced dates of releases into the future. Use footage of running the twisties and all the closed course stuff with the "professional driver..." disclaimer.

End with "Buick, Now!"

I'd like to see just about anything with excitement in a Buick ad. He-double-hockeysticks, if ya have to, steal the old guy from the new Six Flags commercials!!

[NTX5467]

I agree Dave, it's torque that gets things moving in the first place. But not all OHC motors are peaky with weak low rpm power. For example, when I was renting cars for weekend running around, I'd rent a Regal LS with the 3800 sometimes and Chryslers with the 3.5L V-8 other times. Same general size motors with the same general horsepower, weight, and even the same Eagle LS tires back then. If you nailed it from a dead stop, both would spin the front tires the same number of seconds. The Chrysler, with it's dual path intake manifold (which the Intrigue 3.5L V-6 never had), would really sound nice over 4000rpm yet didn't give up anything on the bottom end. Although the 3800s had rated horsepower at 5000rpm, above 4000rpm in high gear, things started tapering off as the Chrysler kept pulling. The later Intrigue 3.5L V-6 motors had decent lower rpm power and had more run in the higher rpms too. Not to discount the 3800s low and mid-range power (which the earlier versions of the Intrigue 3.5L V-6s did not meet, needing the 3.29 axle ratio to get close to the existing 3800's performance), but they can get a little slower above 4000 rpm. With our modern highway system, how often do we need that rpm range? Not a whole lot. In many cases, many might not desire to admit it, but I highly suspect the Buick 3800 has been something of a benchmark for other V-6s to match with respect to overall power, economy, and reliability.

In the case of the smaller 2.0L general size motors, they can be weak in lower rpm power, regardless of the number of valves or camshafts. When they talk about power, they don't tell you it takes 6000+ rpm to make it happen and that a manual gear box will extract it better than an automatic. Even in the sports car days of old, they talked about them needing a manual gear box to "row" them through traffic.

Bottom line is that when you put your foot to the floorboard, you expect something to happen. It's how it happens that makes the difference, regardless of what kind of power numbers that might be on the paper. Responsive power is what matters and the Buick engines, with their great torque characteristics, have always been good at that.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

GREAT POINT, DAN!!! GREAT IDEAS TOO!!!

As for "smiles" in the advertising, that's ONE thing that has tended to set the Ford advertising apart from others. The early Mustang print and television ads were about fun, enjoyment, and the fact that a Mustang could put a smile on your face as you escaped the hustle and bustle of the everyday world. Great messages, to be sure. Same general orientations are still going on with more recent Mustang ads too.

Some of the GM and Chrysler ads have headed in the same direction, but not quite to the extent of the Ford ads over the years. As great as the new or yet-to-be-built GM cars might be, it's going to take some innovative, memorable, and different advertising to ensure the buying public excited about going to see them or desire to own them.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467