Modified Buicks

[1937hd45]

Did anyone else catch the show on the History Channel last nite, History of Drag Racing? TV Tommy Ivo was a guest and so were his restored Nailhead T bucket, Twin Buick and Four engine Buick drag cars. They showed footage of the Four engine car with the Station Wagon body running. It looked so much better without the wagon body, I don't know why they restored it that way.

[Matt Harwood]

As far as I'm concerned, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">once a Buick, always a Buick.</span></span> I don't particularly like Chevy motors in non-Chevy rods, but if that's the way it's built, then that's great. While it shows a certain lack of creativity and vision for the rod, I don't think that the car stops being a Buick because of the motor.

We're acting like we're preserving one-of-a-kind pieces of art or something. These are just cars, and fairly common ones at that. Sure I cry a little when I see an old car irrevocably cut and chopped, but if it makes the owner happy, then that's what it's all about. This is, after all, a hobby that's supposed to be fun. Who are we to decide what the definition of fun should be? It's your car, do what you want with it. There are plenty to go around for all of us.

Seriously, you don't see any hot-rod Duesenbergs, V16 Cadillacs, Pierce Arrows or anything like that because they are too valuable as original cars. The hot-rodders aren't removing unique vehicles from the gene pool. I don't know why modifications should be the definition of what is or isn't a Buick. If it was once a Buick, it should be welcome--someone loved that Buick enough to invest significant time and money in it, regardless of our opinion of the end result.

I thought we went over this once before: Rodding vs. Restoring Editorial (Nov. 2002)

Just my (inflation-adjusted) $0.02.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Seriously, you don't see any hot-rod Duesenbergs, V16 Cadillacs, Pierce Arrows or anything like that because they are too valuable as original cars. The hot-rodders aren't removing unique vehicles from the gene pool. </div></div>

Seriously, <span style="font-weight: bold">you do.</span> Commonly. Especially in the literature. It's almost a matter of status among a certain element.

From links above in this thread alone:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 1932 Chrysler Imperial Model CH 5-passenger sedan, 135" wheelbase, rust free car, sidemounts, complete interior, no engine or trans, <span style="font-weight: bold">one of a kind street rod</span>, $9900..... </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 1934 Lincoln KA four door sedan. The extensive display surrounding the car didn't give a coachmaker that I could see, but then again I didn't feel comfortable standing next to this fresh Ford 460 equipped version of a Full Classic for to long. Whoever made the body wouldn't recognize now anyway. Yup,....chopped. How original!

</div></div>

I've seen 1931 Cadillacs with massively chromed sbc's in them,.... twice. Also a Cord, a Huppmobile Skylark, and a mid-1930's SS-Jaguar.

When wealthy people took hot rods (technically street rods, but who cares) to be status symbols all holds were barred. Every nut out there (and a few who aren't nuts as well) thinks he's going to get Boyd's money for his assembledge of cliches. I all but guarentee that somebody somewhere is building or has recently built a bid block Duesenberg. No doubt about it.

If it were cool to wipe your butt with the Magna Carta there wouldn't be any copies of it left by now.

And as for: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We're acting like we're preserving one-of-a-kind pieces of art or something. </div></div> There's a couple of those linked above as well, all probably gone by now.

It's easy to convince yourself that abberations like these are abstractions, and not deal with the implications they hold for this hot rodding process continuing and further accelerating another couple of generations or so. That's why it will.

[HurstGN]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Did anyone else catch the show on the History Channel last nite, History of Drag Racing? </div></div>

I did! I did! Very well done show I thought.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> TV Tommy Ivo was a guest and so were his restored Nailhead T bucket, Twin Buick and Four engine Buick drag cars. They showed footage of the Four engine car with the Station Wagon body running. It looked so much better without the wagon body, I don't know why they restored it that way. </div></div>

Well, to me, that footage they showed looked like older footage. And did you notice there were 2 cars lined up and BOTH had 4 engines and Station Wagon Bodies? I think that's how that particular car was built. I didn't hear him refer to that Station Wagon Bodied car as the "ShowBoat" car...hence I think it was a correct representation of one of the many cars he built. I was drueling all over the TV wishing I could see that car in person. I thought it looked somewhat like a stretched limo, but stretched up front for more motors to go on the trip.If anyone has pics or more info on this WILDLY modified Buick, I'd be interested in knowing more. I'd even like to see it on a show field.

[1937hd45]

HurstGN, The Tommy Ivo "Showboat" and the station wagon bodied Four engined car are one and the same. I saw it two years ago in Ocala, Florda at the Don Garlits Museum of Drag Raing. If you are ever in the area stop and see this collection.Of all the collecions I've had a chance to see this was really special, just about every car Don built is there and restored. Cars that are recreated or outright replicas are clearly noted as replicas of cars that were distroyed.

[brad54]

I said I wouldn't, but...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Setting aside that the (by far) greater rarity is the cost justification of re-restoring a rodded car, the simple fact is that in many cases, and most cases for certain commonly rodded cars, <span style="font-weight: bold"> [color:\\"red\\"]this <span style="font-style: italic">isn't</span> true.</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">Any</span> chopped and/or channelled car is lost. <span style="font-weight: bold">Any</span> frame modifed car is lost. <span style="font-weight: bold">Many</span> trashed interiors can never be replaced.

</div></div>

This just plain isn't true, and that's why I'm responding again. These cars aren't lost--it would just take parts cars. What happens if a tree caves in the roof of a restored car? That car isn't lost. Find a donor that's rusted to the middle of the doors and whack the roof off, then swap them over at the "A" "B" and "C" pillar lead seams.

Replacing floor pans, trunk floors and rocker panels is common--and not just with parts from the Year One catalog. It just takes good donor and some hard work. Or someone who's pretty handy with a sheetmetal brake and bead rollers.

On an old car, the interiors are rarely in any kind of decent shape! Gauge faces are faded, gauges don't work, steering wheels are cracked, knobs are broke or missing, seat covers are shot, seat foam is shot, heck--the seat springs are usually worn out too! And if the covers aren't trashed, the thread holding the seams together is often rotted. So when it's all said and done, what's the difference between replacing a rodded interior or replacing a rotted interior?

And as for a modified frame being the deal breaker, that's also way off base--find a rusted hulk of a car and swap the frame out! Granted, it was a '57 Chevy, but I did just that very thing with mine. And in fact, I found that spending a few hundred dollars for a spare frame makes the resto go smoother!!! While the body is on one side of the garage or at the paint shop, you can build the chassis. Then swap them over.

What would you do if a '65 Riv got crunched, slid in the rain and hit a curb or whatever and had the frame bent? Throw it out? If that's your solution, let me know--I'll be camped at your curb on garbage day!

And if you're talking about '30s cars, they can still be done the same way--it would just take some excellent metal fabrication, but it could be done.

Since we're throwing generalities out here, how come it's acceptable to canibalize a 4-dr sedan when restoring a 2-dr? What about all the parts cars out there that could have been restored, but were sacrificed for a more desirable model?

I'm just curious--what cars get the official "Okey Dokey" for rodding? What kind of shape should they be in to start with? What's "too nice" to be hot rod material? Who's going to subsidize me when I find a screamin' deal on a clean, old, original car that I'd like to hot rod? I mean, if I want to build a car, why should I have to spend a bunch more time and money starting with a basket case than a clean, complete car?

You see this frequently in the literature? Really? "Luxo Rods" (big luxury cars from the '30s and '40s) aren't a real popular segment of the scene. You see them sometimes, but not often. Other rare cars? Yeah, sometimes, but they're more curiosities thrown in with the more traditional kinds of cars to keep things interesting. Working for car magazines, I can't imagine putting this kind of car in a mag more than a couple times a year, and then that'd be pushing it. Maybe an issue theme every couple of years, where we can take all six of these kinds of cars we've seen at the shows and put it in one issue, but really, magazines aren't running features of hot rodded Cords, Terraplanes, V16 Caddys and V12 Lincolns on a monthly basis. First of all, they aren't too common at the shows. Second, our readers wouldn't care to see them that often.

And frankly, I have to take issue with rodding being compared to wiping your butt. They're cars, not the Magna Carta. Nice pig emoticon, too.

It's strange--I've never known a hot rodder get an attitude, be rude and insult other enthusiasts at a show. (Exception--When the car is blatantly unsafe, such as SOME of the "rat rods" out there--not to be confused with the down and dirty primered cars)

We'll throw down when it comes to it, but we're usually not the ones drawing the line in the sand or hurling the insults--if it happens, it's a reaction. There are some guys who really like to tweak the nose of the restorer--but I doubt they sit down and say to themselves "You know, I want to find the rarest car I can and hot rod, just to make the resto crowd mad..." They just know it gets a huge reaction, and they like watching that reaction. Kinda like lighting a firecracker. Hence the "cut 'em up" T-shirts. It really is kinda fun to watch those guys turn red and see the veins on their neck pop out! If there are one or two "status symbol" guys like that, well, there are annoying dolts in every segment of the hobby that we'd rather not have around, aren't there?

How can more cars at the shows, and younger kids getting involved with old cars be bad? Most kids aren't going to get too excited about owning and driving a restored '50 Roadmaster. Lower it, give it a decent engine, wheels, tires, paint and an interior, and now you've got a 17 year old who loves his Buick hot rod, and will love Buicks as he gets older too.

John D and Matt Harwood said it very well.

Hey Matt, you didin't happen to own a butterscotch '69 1/2 Road Runner a few years back, did you?

-Brad

[1937hd45]

Brad,You neglected to tell us what we're supposed to do when we find a NOS 1937 Terraplane plastic "carrot" hood ornament.

[NTX5467]

Very good point, Brad. Over the years, MANY '55-'57 Chevrolet 150, 210, and BelAir 4-door sedans have been sacrificed so the ever so desireable 2-door hardtops (maybe even a 2-door sedan "street" car) and highly valuable convertibles could regain their place on the road or show field. No one wants those "thousand doors" so they turn into donors for the cars that more people perceive they want to restore. Probably happened with some Buicks, many Oldsmobiles, and a bunch of Pontiacs too, plus other Fords and Chrysler products too.

I went on a "buy" activity with a friend that was buying an unmolested '55 2-door station wagon COMPLETE with the 265 V-8, original battery tray, and oil bath air cleaner. Had a PowerGlide too. Completely unmolested in all respects--this was about 6-7 years ago too! It was indeed a "find". It was to be cleaned up and resold, probably to find a fate in some sort of customized situation, I suspect, as the later owner probably would put the requisite 350 V-8 and 3-speed automatic in it (so it would be worth more!). It was amazing how nice this car was, even considering for the years of use. Somebody that was into station wagons would probably have not slept until they bought it, it was so nice. Make a great and neat car for a young family too--except for the lack of air conditioning. A few more modern creature comfort upgrades and it would have been a great car--period.

Nothing wrong with those 4-door sedans, just that they are 4-door sedans. Not to mention that most of the similar station wagons were used for what they were designed for and discarded. Like the television commercial says, "Who wants a used station wagon?" in the "normal" public anyway. Many of those station wagons are now more rare than many muscle cars too! Find a '64 Buick station wagon with buckets and console and you'll find an exceptional car that's hopefully in "carefully maintained" condition. Valuable like a rare car? Not quite!

Of course, if you go to a major Chevy Club national event, you'll find those BelAir 4-door sedans that cost close to $100K to get to better than factory condition in all respects. Plus the "pit crew", display materials, and hauling apparatus mechanism. They'll probably have the seemingly requisite BFG repro whitewalls (except for the unusual Firestone Deluxe Champions) and other trappings of being correctly restored with as "the best it can be".

As one old line Chevy guy mentioned, none of those cars came from the factory with ALL of their chrome aligned as good as it is on those cars. Whoops! BUSTED! Over-restoration OR Modified???!!!

Those cars might be as perfect as they could be, but they weren't built that way originally. Every model of vehicle has their own little things that were acceptable at the time they were built although it might not have been as letter perfect as things typically are today. A reliable and accurate restoration usually results in a car that might be really correct, but it's not to the same standards as a circuit show car for ISCA or similar where incorrect shiney paint goes where GM never put it, yet it makes the car "show better" AND also gives the public the incorrect presumption that they all used to be that way too. One reason that a correctly restored Mopar vehicle will never win a trophy against an over-restored Pontiac, by my observation.

Gets back to "WHO do you please?" It just depends on what the owner wants from the car and the way it will be used--period.

For example, a vehicle that's going to be driven cross country to BDE events could be pretty much anything from Gold Senior Award vehicles to something that would not even get a Bronze level or Archival award. That car that receives a Silver award with its radial tires, halogen headlights, and such could also be a Gold Award vehicle, possibly, with the more correct items on it and/or a little more attention to other items. Just depends on what the owner wants.

Sure, there are things that other owners do or don't do that we might like to see, but WE are not paying their bills, even though we could probably "improve" upon what they did in one way or another. Hopefully, if they did change something, we could change it back to what we knew it should/could be without too much trouble.

Over the years, there will always be stories of cars that were "ruined" from the good vehicles they were when ownership changed to those of that vehicle that turned into a money pit and probably should have been left under that tree out behind the barn, except that it was some "rare" vehicle that deserved to be saved at all costs. That aspect of the hobby is NOT going to change.

As the old Harrah's Collection proved, you can save anything you want to and make a museum piece out of it too--if you have the facilities to machine and remanufacture parts for said vehicle, cost no object. There are some great museums full of rare, vintage vehicles in this country. But I rather doubt anything from the Nethercutt Collection (or similar) will ever be anything other than what they currently are--restored vehicles on display in a magnificent facility in CA, for example. Not to say that some in private ownwership might make the trip to "custom" vehicles for whatever reason.

The automotive hobby is highly diverse with areas and niches for most everyone that desires to participate. We are all part of that family, whether we like it or not--just like that blood relative that we might tolerate instead of being more friendly to at the family reunion. Or that cousin that we don't approve of who they married or the way they dress or their lifestyle or the fact they don't discipline their offspring.

Fault can be found where fault is looked for, it seems, depending on one's point of view or orientation. Intrinsic goodness is the same way, but much more preasureable to deal with in the long run. Reality figues into the mix too. For example, "That clear coat metallic paint on that '56 Century might not be a correct-for-that-year color, but it sure is slick and has great depth of shine. Looks pretty dang good too!" instead of commenting that they wasted their money on that incorrect paint.

The automotibe hobby is something of a multi-faceted game. How we take care of or restore or redo our vehicles usually depends on which "game" we want to play--the BCA 400 Point judging, weekend cruise events, other open car club shows, racing events, or just keeping it alive. Each orientation has it's own rules of acceptance and award/reward, whether it be trophies, smiles and compliments from other drivers, or the personal satisfaction of having it and appreciating it for what it is (even if it is a little worse for wear). Some aspects can overlap too, some will not, but it's all part of the basic group of "automotive enthusiasts" that is "the family".

Enjoy to the level of your tolerance!

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brad,You neglected to tell us what we're supposed to do when we find a NOS 1937 Terraplane plastic "carrot" hood ornament. </div></div>

Why it's <span style="font-style: italic">so</span> simple! You break it in half along with your old one, then weld the good top part to your old base and restore the last one you ruined. Of course!

[brad54]

NTX: Again, I love what you said! And I completely agree with your thoughts on what, exactly, a "restored" car is. Roger Gibson and I once talked about his learning curve (for those who don't know, Gibson is one of the best Corvette and Mopar restorers in the country). He'd have guys come in and want a car restored to factory specs. Okay, done. Except that they didn't want overspray, eggshell paint, that panel doesn't fit perfect, the gap around the door is off... Turns out most of his customers want it perfect, not restored. Big difference!

That kind of stuff is fun to see, though. I thought it was pretty cool to see the forensic work on those cars: the paint drips on the torsion bars had to go a certain way, because that's how they were painted at the factory, etc. I wouldn't go through it myself, but it's cool to see when guys get into them that far!

Also, I'd like to take this moment to tell everyone here that MrEarl (Lamar) has the prettiest red 4-door Super (Oh jeez, Lamar, is it a Super or a Century?! I'm sorry!) that I've ever seen. I had to talk him out of selling it! The car is clean, mechanically sound, clean, straight, runs and drives well, clean, and looks just great. I'd love to have a car like that for a family car. Wouldn't mess around with it eaither--A/C and a hidden radio, maybe, but that's it. And seat belts. That little red More-door is awesome! And it'll get attention everywhere it goes, even with the extra doors.

As for station wagons, I've got a real soft spot in my head for those, too. The only thing better than Lamar's 4-dr would be a 4-door station wagon. Have to do something about the gearing for highway driving, but other than that, I'd love to have one. And talk about a money pit! Spend about the same restoring a 2-dr '57 Bel Air or a 4-door 210 station wagon. Then sell them. I'd sell my new Dakota for one if it came up, and drive it daily.

I've seen a 421 Tri-power 4-speed '62 Pontiac wagon, and know of a 348 Tri-power manual trans Chevy wagon that was used to restore a '58 Impala in the '80s. The Impala was one of the best in the country, and had every single option, including the rarest engine. But I'd get more excited seeing the wagon restored!

The funny thing about classic car museums--it's great that they exist, but how many people actually go to them? And those that do are enthusiasts already. I think I've only been to three or four in my life, and one was Don Garlits in Florida, the other was the Walter P. Chrysler, and I went there for business. When I come out of the grocery store, and there is a guy sitting in a van waiting for me by my car because he wants to know about it, that's a guy who might get a vintage car himself with enough encouragement. Tell him about local cruise and tell him to show up for a look around. He brings his kid with him that Friday night... Go into the gas station on a Tuesday evening, and talk to the kid behind the counter...and the list goes on forever. When I was able to drive my '54 every day, I had to count on at least an additional 10 minutes on any trip, because someone would stop me and talk. And my car really wasn't anything special! (no pun intended) But man, talk about promoting the hobby! If we all drove our cars on a Tuesday or Wedensday, for no reason? The more people that see them going down the road or parked at the back of the parking lot, the stronger the hobby gets.

As for what should be done if someone finds an NOS "Carrot"? Well, if what Dave says is true, contact Sothby's, and then plan your retirement! But keep it in a climate controlled, nitrogen-filled sealed environment while the bids are coming in. Something along the lines of what they store the original Declaration of Independance in. Or the Magna Carta.

Hey, if you've got a Terraplane and need one, buy it and do with it what you will! I really don't have anything rare (or heck, even valuable!), so I usually don't pay too much attention to the parts that can only be handled with white cotton gloves. I lose a lot more sleep over what some countries are doing to their citizens and neighbors than what guys do with cars. I make my living with them, but when it comes down to it, they aren't important--they're simply a pleasant diversion. (One that figured heavily into me moving, the lot we bought, the house we built, and the shop I spent money on that could have gone to something else, but still just a diversion!)

A Hemi 'Cuda sold for a million bucks recently. How does that affect us? It doesn't, me. Good or bad for the hobby can be debated, too. The fact is, though, that I just don't care about it. I don't care about Boyd-built, Thom Taylor or Troy Trepanier-built cars, either. They're pleasant diversions for me when I see them--but just enough for a walk around them and then I move on. Other guys spend hours around them, stuttering and drooling. And paying huge money for them. Different strokes! They're not wrong, and neither am I. Just different views.

-brad

[Hillary]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That car isn't lost. Find a donor that's rusted to the middle of the doors and whack the roof off, then swap them over at the "A" "B" and "C" pillar lead seams. </div></div>

I'lll french kiss the first guy (or gal) under the Capitol rotunda who can prove they've done this and everything else that would <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> have to be done for a restoration of a car back to stock.

[brad54]

I didn't say it was easy!

I have seen a convertible '70 Challenger that had the windshield and convertible mechanism chopped, and it was put back. Had (poorly) shaved door handles that were fixed, too.

I've also seen a Plymouth Fury rebodied--the donor car didn't start out as a convertible, but it took the top Concours restoration awards in the most prestigous Mopar shows in the country. And that was just a nothing-special Fury.

I've also seen a Plymouth Superbird that had a new roof put on. Again, concours winner.

Finally, I know of an original, un-restored Plum Crazy '70 T/A Challenger that is an absolutely perfect car--except for the roof that had a cinder block hurled into it by Hurricane Andrew down in Florida. Peeled it back like a tin can. The only fix for that car is a new roof.

The Penske Sunoco Camaro of SCCA racing days also got a new roof, after going a little too far in the acid bath!

Body shops do it pretty often with new cars.

Again, not easy, and I havn't done it (nor would I make the attempt, since I don't have the skills yet), but where there's a will, there's a way.

-Brad

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, I'd like to take this moment to tell everyone here that MrEarl (Lamar) has the prettiest red 4-door Super (Oh jeez, Lamar, is it a Super or a Century?! I'm sorry!) that I've ever seen. I had to talk him out of selling it! The car is clean, mechanically sound, clean, straight, runs and drives well, clean, and looks just great. I'd love to have a car like that for a family car. Wouldn't mess around with it eaither--A/C and a hidden radio, maybe, but that's it. And seat belts. That little red More-door is awesome! And it'll get attention everywhere it goes, even with the extra doors.</div></div>

Wow, thanks for the compliments.But it's all due to that nice old gentleman in California that spent 5 years meticulously restoring her to her present beautiful state.(Photo attached) And it is a Century and that's alright, I get them confused myself ever once in a while. I've sorta taken a likin to the 4 doors. You certainly don't see them everywhere you look. And besides when I cheuffer Jordan to the prom this spring, how would it look, him and his girl struggling out of the back seat of a two door. In fact I'm seriously considering starting restoring Dakota, the 4 door Roadmaster before Irene, the 2 door.

In fact we took her for a ride today,(man wasn't it a beautiful spring day here in Georgia)and someone came up and said, "Wow, a four door, I thought all of them got crushed!"

And BTW, what you helped me decide was not necessarily not to sell Marilyn the Century, but to not give up on the 54's and buy that beautiful 50 Roadmaster in Florida. I may still have to give up Marilyn to afford beginning the restorations of the Roadmasters. Besides, I is a Roadmaster man first, Century second. Again, thanks for the compliments.Coming from someone that's seen as many restor's as you, it means alot.

And since this thread is about modifieds. Here is a case for ya. I love my stocks and restoring them is all about me. I think Ned Nickles did good in designing the headlights, portholes and grills just as they are. But my son Jordan, well he likes them a little lower to the ground, the portholes sculpted a little, and wouldn't mind some flames coming out from the front fenders. But I'll bet if his ol man didn't have the stocks he'd be into the ricers and crap like all his friends. So I say, yea, let the modifiers in and not only let them in, but embrace them. They love the same great car as you.

[Robberbach]

I own a 1950 special, to nice to rod , but I have been tempted to buy another to street rod. I've also looked at a few 37 and 38 coupes, some like the Old Guys, real rough. A lot of work for a restoration or a rod either way. I've also seriously thought about buying a 20's era sedan that had been turned into a truck, so that the farmer could get more gas during WWII. But any project would have to have a Buick motor. In the late 80's early 90's Buick had a cylinder head, with a Buick part#, for use on a sbc. It was built bt Dart Machinery. Widely used in drag racing for years, made more hp and torque than the chevy head of the day. Hope to see all Buicks in Plano.