I "Wooden" worry too much

[56Roadmaster]

Ok I have been looking and reading Rich's Post and having done a considerable amount of this kind of work, skin off body and so forth.I would like to say There is something forgotten here. When these cars were made the wood was made from jigs and the factory was not in the business of taking 1,2, or three years to assemble a wood frame. Further the men building the bodies were not some mystical craftsmen, they were for the most part, regular fellows earning their hourly wage and going home at the end the day. From the cutter to the assembler, hundreds pieces cut each shift and assembled, and they were NOT held to tolerances in the thousandths, more like +/- 1/16" or better. Yes, even on the "CLASSIC" Parkard Seniors and the Chrysler Custom Imperial. If you CAREFULLY inspect these bodies, you will see the wood is NOT a perfect fit it some places interfering with the body and in others gaps of 1/4" of more, The wood to wood joints are NOT always tight or perfectly mated. Remeber, this was in all,but exceptional cases MASS PRODUCTION. Body wood work was not rocket science back then nor is it now.

[Guest]

Thank you so much for your post. When I replaced the top pieces on my "Fisher" body there was a half inch difference in the curvature between the left and right sides. The outsde of the pieces, not where the metal was attached but behind the curved part of the metal, was rough and I mean rough sawn. In one place the finger joints were only about three quarters through. There was a whole piece split off. I wonder why everyone wants to use oak today. My original wood was some kind of eastern soft wood. I suspect this was to alow some flexibility as well as save costs in material and labour.

The bodies were certainly not cabinetwork, just ordinary quality (adequate for the job)woodwork. Any one with ordinary hand tools and some time could duplicate the original woodwork in the mass produced cars.

Happy hobbying

[Old Crabby]

I made a frame for a Durant roadster once. The original one was rotted away.

I used 3 tools, a bandsaw, electric hand planer and a drillpress.

Got my kiln-dried ash from Constantine's in the Bronx.

Some years afterwards the car was sold and the new owner commented on the "nice original toolmarks" in the wood....................................................

[Restorer32]

Rewood an L-29 Cord Convertible Coupe (over 150 individual pieces of wood) or a large Classic 4 door sedan and I think your opinion as to the difficulty of producing and assembling such a wooden body structure might change. Currently rewooding a '49 Bentley Sedanca Coupe with extremely complicated wood. Personally I've seen lots of ash, oak, some maple, but never any soft woods used in auto framing.

[RoadsterRich]

Thanks for all the input. And you are correct this isn't cabnetmaking, folks won't ever see 99% of the wood as it is behind the upholstery and on top of the steel frame. As I dig in to the wood work I am learning many things. One thing of interest is the insects loved some pieces and completely bypassed others that butted to them. Another interesting item to note is that many of the curved support pieces for the rear rumble seat area are comprised of 2 or 3 pieces of wood joined together, rather than being cut from a larger more expensive block which would have resulted in a great deal of waste. It looks like most of what I will need is 1" thick x 4-8" wide, 2x2" pieces, some 2x4 pieces, and I haven't measured the door posts yet, depending on how they are made they might be 4x4's, not sure yet. Basically it seems even back in 1930 they used the cheaper wood where possible-- or perhaps it was easier to work or took less skill to use several smaller boards than working with a single large piece? In any event, so far so good on moving forward.

I have a 14" band saw, a table saw, a radial arm saw, jig-saw, circular saw, compound mitre saw, drum sander, belt sander, disk sander, and tons of hand planes, saws, and tools that are as old or older than the car. I think I have the bulk of the tools needed. My next task in the wood department is to remove and layout the pieces that are there. Then make decent educated guesses for the missing pieces (most are near mirrored on the opposite side so I should be okay there).

A good rough count on the wood is slightly over 100 individual pieces to cut, quite a bit for a roadster. Most of the pieces are simple, but some have a great deal of cuts and complex curves to them to match the body contour. I think most of the time and difficulty is actually on a small number of the total count of wood pieces. As usually 90% or more of the time will be spent on 10% or less of the parts...

Rich

PS: As for the subject... very punny!

[Erndog]

I am currently working on redoing the entire wood framing in my 1930 Buick Model 61. I agree that it is not a fine art. I have found several instances where an original piece on the right side of the car is noticibly different from the "matching" original piece on the left.

[Guest]

To Restorer 32: I would not have any idea of the wood used in quality or "Classic" cars. I was refering specifically to "Fisher" bodies. There were special stretched McLaughlin's made for our Royal visitors in the 30's and the pieces used to make the back doors and the "stretch" in the bodies was pine.

The left over pieces that I took out of my car have never been officialy identified by lumber people (I have shown the pieces to dozens of people who are supposed to be experts in wood) but they all say eastern soft wood.

I know of a man who rewodded a car in 1965. He only used half lap and mortise and tenon joints and kiln dried fir. The car is still in use today and the change in the wood construction would only be noticable by dis-assembling the car.

Happy hobbying

[Erndog]

As for what wood Fisher used, the usual was Ash and sometimes Oak. I forget where right now, perhaps the Fisher website, but somewhere I read that the wood used was whatever was locally available near the factory and that the factories were located according to large supplies being available. The amount of wood used by Fisher was incredible. In a February 18, 1926 article, Fisher Corporation of Detroit is reported to own approximately 160,000 acres of timberlands in the southern states and about 62,000 acres of timberlands in Northern Michigan. It goes on to say that "It would be much easier and simpler for Fisher to avoid using lumber in the manufacture of bodies, but it is only through combining steel with wood in the making of a body that quality can be maintained. Using the "wood sheathed in steel" concept, Fisher Body has 25 million board feet of hardwood in drying kilns at all times."

Note the reference to "hardwood". I would suspect that any softwoods found in a Fisher body were introduced in a post-manufacture repair.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Folks, thought I would jump in here just to make some comparitive points...

I'm in the foundry business. The case example (below) is to show the "living wood" characteristics:

--Have a customer in Southern New Jersey. Volume of castings is low (10 here, 25 there). All of their patterns are "Pine". Although we retain & store their patterns in a dry, careful, fire sprinklered area, it is not uncommon to receive an order for a part number requiring one of these "long stored" patterns.

Well, we pull the (pine) pattern out of storage...mold and cast the part. The customer complains that the grey iron casting tolerances are out of spec, or, the long configured part is warped (no machine stock at a given point), and, henceforth...

--Point: Just by being in a controlled atmosphere for years, wood changes, depending on its consistency.

In my opinion, the wood, combination of woods used on "woodies", restoration of a 50, 60 year old "woodie", is no different than the aforementioned patterns. I have experienced some patterns constructed of mahogany on high profile configurations, then, for an unknown reason, the patternmaker used pine for the low profile areas. Well, one has two different woods reacting to climate and years, totally different.

You have climates to consider: Dampness where it is stored, fluctuating temperatures where I live (Summer humidity/Winter coldness), Dry conditions in the Southwest...so on, and, so on...

As for a car with wood that you bought: i.e...It was built in Indianapolis in the Winter. The second owner moved to Southern California. After 30 years, the third owner lives in Vermont...endless. Then, you, the 4th or 5th person to owner buys the car, goes to restore it, and, wonders: Why are there so many differentiating pieces to the wood.

It all has a bearing, believe me...

Regards, Peter J.

[Guest]

ERNDOG With respect I would pretend to be from Missouri regarding Fishers comments. I always thought it was funny that a composite body was the only kind they recommended until all of a sudden their wood lot ran out. Then all of a sudden all steel and turret top came in.

As to my own car. I am the second owner. My grandfather bought it new, until I did some there was no woodwork done on the car and I can assure you that it is not Oak or Ash. Now to put another curve into the equation. It is a Canadian car built in Regina Saskatchewan. I don't know wether or not this make any difference.

At any rate happy hobbying to all.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Rich,

I replaced all the rotted and termite infested wood in my Town Sedan, which was nearly half of it. Of that, I bought exactly 3 pieces from someone else, the windshield header and the lower roof rails that go right above the doors on each side. If I had it to do over again, I would have bought only the windshield header. For $75, I wouldn't attempt to do one from scratch. The roof rails were not as complicated as I first thought. Mine were in such bad shape I wasn't sure they were suitable as patterns, but after seeing the ones I ordered, I realized I could have done it myself if I had just known what they looked like. All of the pieces required additional work to fit.

The one tool I found indispensible was a right angle grinder with a #36 sanding disc. It will do an excellent job of shaping (sculpting) the wood. I just marked it with a pencil and sanded it down to the line. Granted it's not for finish use, but 99% of it gets covered by upholstery, so I wasn't worried about finish.

About those curved pieces: Man, I can relate! The pieces that go in front of the rear fender well are effectively arced through a 90 degree angle and are 1 inch thick, 3 inches wide tapering to maybe 1-1/2 inches wide. In other words, they are curved in all 3 dimensions. They were glued up out of 12 separate pieces. I cut all my pieces and glued them up, then sanded to fit (by trial and error) with the #36 disc on the grinder. Worked out GREAT!

Take it on. You can do it!

[RoadsterRich]

I figured I "Wood" update ya'll on the wood...

It looks like the front door posts are comprised of no less than 6 individual pieces of wood.

The left front door post which seemed soft is in fact mostly in tact. One of the blocks has come unglued which allows the hinge to shift slightly. The only damage I can find is one of the bottom blocks on it. A small repair job

The right front door post is actually solid, however it is cocked out a little and loose. Apparently it has shrunk some over time and the bolts which hold it all together need some tightening.

The left rear door post has weathered considerably. It has virtually no insect damage but the front is soft and appears to be worn away a bit. The sheet metal cover does not fit will on it. Minimally I will need to remove it, trim it back and put a new 'face' on it. This is a very complex piece with quite a few complicated curves, mortices and tenons in it. I will reserve judgement on replacement until I get it out and really check it over.

The right rear door post has insect damage about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom extending for about 2". There seems to be none above it, and none below it. It has the same 'face' issue that the left rear door post does. I'm expecting to have no choice but to replace this complicated piece.

The 'header' which is complex, made of many pieces and runs across the interior edge of the cowl seems to be in very good condition. I had been warned that these tend to rot. I won't know for sure until I pull the dash panel out, but from the front and back inspections so far, it looks like this one will require little if any work.

The 'rails' which run along the top of the frame seem to be solid and in good condition.

The piece that runs along the back of the passenger compartment is comprised of 9 pieces of wood. The majority of these show no signs of damage. Unfortunately the piece that sits inside the body and has the complex curve (curved on two sides adjacent to each other) appears it may have some serious insect damage. The larger board which it attaches to, and is only curved on the top, seems to have a little insect damage near the center but nothing devestating. Of course with the two boards mated I won't know for sure until I remove it.

The brace that supports the sheetmetal across the car which runs just in front of the rumble seat area is shot. As are all of the braces which support it. This will have to be replaced and is comprised of 6 components, two of which have extremely complex cuts and curves, with the top end being offset from the bottom end.

The entire floorboard for the golf club and rumble seat area is missing. This was originally 3/4" plywood and a 3/4" x 1 3/4" board. It has a few interesting cuts in it, but should be easy to replicate even without the pattern.

One of the two supports which curve up from the tail end of the car, beside the rumble seat area, up to the passenger area are a concern. The one on the left has some significant insect damage. It is comprised of either three or four pieces of wood. The one on the right seems to be fairly solid.

The bracing which boxes in the rumble seat area and ties in to the two supports I just mentioned is in useable condition on the right side. The left side simply isn't there. Most of it is mirrors of the right side, though not all of it. I think I can figure it out. I have most of the wood from another roadster, which isn't in too good of shape, but provides me with patterns for some of the missing parts.

The cross members that run behind the front seats are in excellent condition.

All of the framing around the golf club door area is in excellent condition.

The wood at the very tail of the car is rotten, where the water from the rumble seat apparently drips. I have yet to figure out how to get this piece out, but it will have to be replaced.

That covers the majority of the wood in the car. Fortunately much of the car is metal, and has little rust.

Well we'll see how accurate my assessments are once I start removing the bits I know I have to work on.

Taking deep breaths... because it doesn't look as bad as I expected... so I know I'm missing something... nothing has gone easy on this car so far...

Rich

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

"Why Composite (steel-skinned/wood-framed) bodies?" - evolution....most body makers had their origins as 19th century coach-builders - the "carriage trade" - Brewster, Judkins, Fisher....

I'm a little surprised that there's so much wood in your roadster, Rich; Chrysler purchased the Briggs (?) Body Co. in the late 20's and was one of the pioneers in using all-steel bodies, at least as far as structural framing goes...

One thought - label each original piece of framing while still in the car or just as it comes out, make sketches of joints & take lots of photos, and save all your old wood (at least until the car is all done!)...it is not unusual to al of sudden find your self surrounded by lots of "pieces" that have suddenly become a puzzle !

Ash was probably the most commonly used body wood, for its stregnth & relative lightness. As for oak, when used, remember that it was white oak (not red...), and usually old-growth white oak (denser then present-day stock), and usually quarter-sawn...I think oak was mostly used for top bows.

Franklin even used to make their CHASSIS frame rails out of wood (ash?)...

Good luck to you; when I was working on my 1936 Chevy low-cab pick-up, I had only three pieces of wood in the whole cab - the two door pillars and the dash cross-sill...the cross sill was straight forward enough, but the pillars wer curved in about three different planes, and had all sorts of millings and such, and frankly just intimidated me too much to even attempt my own fabrication.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Rich,

Only you can make this decision, but for the pieces that have rot or insect damage in just small areas, you might consider cutting out the bad area and gluing in new wood. In fact, there is a product called Kwick-Poly that can be injected into rotted areas of wood and will fill the voids and bring the strength back. This product is also good for fixing loose glue joints in places where you don't want to have to take the wood out. I had a couple of places like that on my doors. The wood was in good shape, but the glue had turned loose. To remove the wood would have required some serious metal work, so I opted to Kwick Poly the joints.

Of course, you will have to evaluate each situation to decide if this is acceptable for that particular piece.

[RoadsterRich]

The doors and the rumble seat lid I omitted in the original list. These may turn out to be the biggest challenge, they are complex and I do not have the original wood, or at least not much of it. The replacement wood that is there is extremely rough and not very functional. I would think there should be a support for the interior door latch handle assembly, however there is nothing there for that (coincidentally I am missing the parts for the assembly. The interior door handles look like sheet metal twisted and bent to make a handle towards the front of the car, the latch being at the back of the door towards the rear of the car. I also only have the drivers side latch assembly.

Guess it's time to hit up the couple of folks I know who have done a 77 Roadster and see if they have any information, photographs or drawings of the door wood.

Rich