1941 SUPER GLOVE BOX DOOR

[John R. Hess]

Hi Everyone.  John Hess from York, Pa. here.  I have a question regarding the finish on the glove box door (and also the instrument cluster).  Can anyone tell me what that "engine turned looking" finish is, how it was done and if it can be restored or replaced?  It looks like it has some depth but when you look at it from the side or through the hole the clock goes into, it looks very thin.  It looks like there is some sort of "plastic" or clear coating on it.  It is absolutely smooth to the touch with no trace of the "engine turned" feeling present.

 

This is something I've never seen before and most people who look at at are just as perplexed as I am.

 

Thanks!

[Den41Buick]

Hello John. Anything can be restored or replaced on these cars. I was fortunate to have two cars that had/have a good finish. There are people still doing this on 41 Buick's. Doug Seybold and Bill Anderson can give you those restoration particulars. Yes, they do have a clear and tinted coating. 

[neil morse]

Here's a long discussion on this topic from several years ago.  After much debate in other threads about whether the panels were actually machined or the "engine turning" was a decal, the issue was resolved.

 

 

[Grant Z]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:26 PM, John R. Hess said:

Hi Everyone.  John Hess from York, Pa. here.  I have a question regarding the finish on the glove box door (and also the instrument cluster).  Can anyone tell me what that "engine turned looking" finish is, how it was done and if it can be restored or replaced?  It looks like it has some depth but when you look at it from the side or through the hole the clock goes into, it looks very thin.  It looks like there is some sort of "plastic" or clear coating on it.  It is absolutely smooth to the touch with no trace of the "engine turned" feeling present.

 

This is something I've never seen before and most people who look at at are just as perplexed as I am.

 

Thanks!

Hi John,

 

My understanding it that these 2 panels were indeed engine-turned from the factory, and not a decal, then clear-coated with paint which gives the perfectly smooth finish. If they were not clear-coated they would rust immediately. The factory named this a "damascene finish". Please see Photo 1 below for an excerpt from Bill (William) Anderson's book 'Restoration Facts 1941 Buick' for more information. Bill Anderson is an accredited '1941 Buick Technical Expert' by the Antique Automobile Club of America.

 

Skip Boyer & Doug Seybold are the 2 recognized people who do this work. There may well be others. I have come across 1 other person online who had someone (other than Skip Boyer or Doug Seybold) privately do this work and it appeared very nice, and quite ingeniously done.

 

Engine turning on a perfectly flat surface is relatively easy, and I would have little problems doing this myself as I am a Fitter & Turner / Toolmaker by trade (I'm not sure what this trade is called in the USA, I'm from Australia). The trade involves machining metal using lathes, milling machines etc. However, these 2 panels have several rolled or curved surfaces that are not flat which creates a difficult problem when trying to engine-turn around these corners/edges. This where it all gets very complicated.

 

For my 1941 Roadmaster Convertible Coupe restoration I have purchased these 2 panels which were engine-turned by Skip Boyer (see the 2nd photo below of my freshly restored panels). Skip does not offer to paint with the correct clear-coat, but instead oils them (to protect from rusting) and wraps them in clear food wrap, and leaves the remainder of work to the owner. Originally these panels were painted with a clear-coat that had a small amount of color (green or some other color I have  been unable to find out what it is). My panels are absolutely magnificent but were not cheap. I was willing to spend the money as I firmly believe that what the driver of a car has in front of him/her (dash, gauges & steering wheel) is most important visually.

 

As you can see by my recently purchased panels (2nd photo), each horizontal row of 'circles' are offset on the diagonal from the rows both above & below. This creates a horizontal/diagonal effect on each panel that seems to match original worn panels in unrestored 1941 Buicks (see 3rd photo of my Roadmaster's original glove-box lid). However, Doug Seybolds work places each engine-turned circle precisely above the circle below it which creates a horizontal/vertical effect (see photo 4).

 

Bill, if you are attending the upcoming Buick National Meet at Strongsville OH, I will be flying from Australia to be there and would be very happy to meet you.

 

If anyone reading this believes my information is incorrect, please speak up. Until nearly 6 years ago, I had not owned a Buick before, so I am certainly no expert.

 

Photo 1 (excerpt from William C. Anderson's book 'Restoration Facts 1941 Buick', Page 68)

 

Photo 2 (my newly purchased dash panels engine-turned by Skip Boyer)

 

Photo 3 (my original Roadmaster glove box lid - note the 'diagonal' pattern)

 

Photo 4 (a Doug Seybold engine-turned glove-box lid)

 

 

Edited May 29 by Grant Z
spelling error & information added (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Note the pattern difference between the two restorations (Skip and Doug).  The original looks more like Skip's with the diagonal pattern.

[Grant Z]

18 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Note the pattern difference between the two restorations (Skip and Doug).  The original looks more like Skip's with the diagonal pattern.

Yes I do state that (although indirectly) in the 2nd line of my 5th paragraph.

[EmTee]

Duh, I guess I missed that...

 

So, what are (or did) you do for the clear-coat?  I suppose you could have an paint jobber tint an automotive clear paint.

[Grant Z]

27 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Duh, I guess I missed that...

 

So, what are (or did) you do for the clear-coat?  I suppose you could have an paint jobber tint an automotive clear paint.

No problem re missing my wording. It was perhaps a little vague.

 

I will soon be cleaning off all the oil and my painter will clear-coat it perhaps with a drop of color as per original. At the upcoming Buick Meet in Ohio (July 10-13) I will ask Skip Boyer and others what color. I may leave it colorless instead if not happy with color.

[neil morse]

4 hours ago, Grant Z said:

If anyone reading this believes my information is incorrect, please speak up.

On the contrary, Grant, I think you did a great job of summing up the whole topic!  On the clearcoat question, Anderson's book only says a clear coat with a "slight tint" that matches either the tan or grey upholstery.  The panels are original in my car, and it's very hard to detect a tint in the clear coat in part because some rust has developed under the clear coat that affects the tint.  But from everything I have seen, I would say that the tint is very subtle.  Take a look at this photo from the 1940 catalog, for example.  The wood graining on the dash tells us that this car has the tan upholstery, so the panels presumably have the tint to match the tan, and it appears to be very slight.  I can't find a similar shot of the grey interior for comparison.

 

[neil morse]

Also, Grant, in thinking some more about your Roadmaster, I wonder whether the panels were tinted at all in the convertibles.  I'm pretty sure that the convertible dashes were body color instead of wood grained, and also that there were many other colors of leather available than just tan or grey.  So it would make sense that the panels were just clear-coated without any tint.

[Grant Z]

20 hours ago, neil morse said:

On the contrary, Grant, I think you did a great job of summing up the whole topic!  On the clearcoat question, Anderson's book only says a clear coat with a "slight tint" that matches either the tan or grey upholstery.  The panels are original in my car, and it's very hard to detect a tint in the clear coat in part because some rust has developed under the clear coat that affects the tint.  But from everything I have seen, I would say that the tint is very subtle.  Take a look at this photo from the 1940 catalog, for example.  The wood graining on the dash tells us that this car has the tan upholstery, so the panels presumably have the tint to match the tan, and it appears to be very slight.  I can't find a similar shot of the grey interior for comparison.

Hi Neil, many thanks for your 2 responses. I am aware that the tint is very subtle going by my the photos I've seen online, plus my friend Dale Collins who originally imported my 1941 Model 44 Coupe. He is very well versed in the 1941 models along with many other American cars it seems.

 

I'm certainly considering not adding any tint to my Roadmaster panels. And yes the convertibles did have a body-color dash instead of the wood-grained finish that all hard-top models had. No wood-grain was to be found on the convertibles I believe.

 

I'm probably going to upholster my Roadmaster in Bedford Cord as before I purchased the car, I had just purchased from SMS Auto Fabrics in Oregon AU$3,500 worth of tan Bedford Cord cloth for my Model 44 Coupe. That car is fitted with leather (but was originally Bedford Cord), but I prefer the cloth instead of leather as it looks much more luxurious and is so much nicer to sit on. When the Roadmaster is finished, I'm unlikely to get back into my Special coupe (old-girlfriend syndrome) so I may as well sell the car (even though I love the car now). So, I may as well use the Bedford Cord on the Roadmaster as it would cost another AU$10,00 to have the cloth fitted to the coupe which would be over-capitalizing. Of course if the roof is down with a cloth interior and it rains, then I had better put up the roof very quickly. My great fear of course is if a bird decides to empty it's bowels on my interior when my roof is down and parked somewhere.

 

Just 41 days (who's counting) until I land in your country for the National Meet in Ohio. I'm very much looking forward to meeting you also when I travel through your area.

[kgreen]

On 5/28/2024 at 1:06 PM, neil morse said:

Also, Grant, in thinking some more about your Roadmaster, I wonder whether the panels were tinted at all in the convertibles.  I'm pretty sure that the convertible dashes were body color instead of wood grained, and also that there were many other colors of leather available than just tan or grey.  So it would make sense that the panels were just clear-coated without any tint.

1940 dash panels were wood grained

1941 dash panels were painted body color

I have been led to believe that there was no difference in the dashboards between car models/series, etc.

 

I wasn't aware of a tint in the clear coat over the machine turned instrument panels, but the wood grained dash on the 1940 cars had one of two color schemes, brown or green.  That information came from https://woodgraining.com/contact-us/.  I visited their shop where he had an extensive collection of original work or documentation of original patterns.  The brown based dash panel complimented the similar color interior fabric.  The green-based woodgrain was used in the gray-based interiors.  Alternate combinations may have existed, of course.  For clarification, I refer to the dash panel as the large piece of steel that contains the engine turned instrument panels.

[40 66S CENTURY]

REGARDING THE COLOR- WE HAD A NOS 1941 INSTRUMENT PANEL WE USED FOR COLOR MATCH WAY BACK IN THE 1980'S. USING THAT AS A GUIDE ,WE USED TO TINT CLEAR COAT THEM USING A TABLESPOON OF LUDDINGTON GREEN[40 BUICK COLOR] TO A GUN CUP OF CLEAR. THOSE WERE THE DAYS WHEN WE COULD BUY "GOOD STUFF". WE OIL THEM NOW BUT ITS EASY FOR ONE TO DO A TEST DRIVE ON A SAMPLE PIECE TO DIAL IN TO THE REAL ORIGINAL COLOR.   BTW-CONVERTS AND CLOSED CARS ALL USED THE SAME DASH PANELS-ALL TINTED- CHECK THE MASTER PARTS BOOK FOR PROOF BUT ITS TRUE. ALL WERE TINTED. BTW WE WILL BE AT STRONGSVILLE EITHER IN THE 1940 90 OR 65 W CAT CONVERT. 1940 IS IN THE DR'S OFFICE UNDER SURGERY RIGHT NOW ..LOL [SKIP N KAREN BOYER][CAPS FOR A BAD RT EYE- NO YELLING] 

[neil morse]

GREAT TO SEE YOU ON HERE, SKIP!  THANKS FOR THE INFO ON THE TINTING.

[Grant Z]

On 6/1/2024 at 9:23 PM, kgreen said:

1940 dash panels were wood grained

1941 dash panels were painted body color

I have been led to believe that there was no difference in the dashboards between car models/series, etc.

 

I wasn't aware of a tint in the clear coat over the machine turned instrument panels, but the wood grained dash on the 1940 cars had one of two color schemes, brown or green.  That information came from https://woodgraining.com/contact-us/.  I visited their shop where he had an extensive collection of original work or documentation of original patterns.  The brown based dash panel complimented the similar color interior fabric.  The green-based woodgrain was used in the gray-based interiors.  Alternate combinations may have existed, of course.  For clarification, I refer to the dash panel as the large piece of steel that contains the engine turned instrument panels.

Hi Ken,

 

Bill Anderson's book I quote from above confirms that the dash in any 1941 convertible is painted body color, but all other closed-car dashes are wood-grained along with all window garnish moldings. In the photo I include above from the section of his book, the very next paragraph states;

 

"The dashboard surrounding the two panels is woodgrained in all closed cars; it is painted to match the body in convertibles; it is black on the Model 90-L."

 

As Bill's book covers just the 1941 Buick, this may well not be the case for 1940 models.

[Grant Z]

6 hours ago, 40 66S CENTURY said:

REGARDING THE COLOR- WE HAD A NOS 1941 INSTRUMENT PANEL WE USED FOR COLOR MATCH WAY BACK IN THE 1980'S. USING THAT AS A GUIDE ,WE USED TO TINT CLEAR COAT THEM USING A TABLESPOON OF LUDDINGTON GREEN[40 BUICK COLOR] TO A GUN CUP OF CLEAR. THOSE WERE THE DAYS WHEN WE COULD BUY "GOOD STUFF". WE OIL THEM NOW BUT ITS EASY FOR ONE TO DO A TEST DRIVE ON A SAMPLE PIECE TO DIAL IN TO THE REAL ORIGINAL COLOR.   BTW-CONVERTS AND CLOSED CARS ALL USED THE SAME DASH PANELS-ALL TINTED- CHECK THE MASTER PARTS BOOK FOR PROOF BUT ITS TRUE. ALL WERE TINTED. BTW WE WILL BE AT STRONGSVILLE EITHER IN THE 1940 90 OR 65 W CAT CONVERT. 1940 IS IN THE DR'S OFFICE UNDER SURGERY RIGHT NOW ..LOL [SKIP N KAREN BOYER][CAPS FOR A BAD RT EYE- NO YELLING] 

HI SKIP,

 

MANY THANKS FOR THAT INFORMATION. I VERY MUCH LOOK FORWARD TO MEETING YOU AT THE NATIONAL MEET IN 37 DAYS (WHO'S COUNTING).

 

BY THE WAY, THE ORIGINAL COLOR OF MY 1941 MODEL 44 IS LUDDINGTON GREEN.

[kgreen]

10 hours ago, Grant Z said:

Hi Ken,

 

Bill Anderson's book I quote from above confirms that the dash in any 1941 convertible is painted body color, but all other closed-car dashes are wood-grained along with all window garnish moldings. In the photo I include above from the section of his book, the very next paragraph states;

 

"The dashboard surrounding the two panels is woodgrained in all closed cars; it is painted to match the body in convertibles; it is black on the Model 90-L."

 

As Bill's book covers just the 1941 Buick, this may well not be the case for 1940 models.

You are absolutely correct Grant. I've been way too focused on the convertible to even think about the other models.  So focused that I told myself "no more".  By some misfortune, this "no more" decree is now getting dragged into a 1950 Mercury woodie project.  Damit!

[Grant Z]

46 minutes ago, kgreen said:

You are absolutely correct Grant. I've been way too focused on the convertible to even think about the other models.  So focused that I told myself "no more".  By some misfortune, this "no more" decree is now getting dragged into a 1950 Mercury woodie project.  Damit!

You're a glutton for punishment Ken.

[40 66S CENTURY]

FOR GRANT[& ALL}JUST HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO SNAP 2 PIX OF A FRESH ENGINE TURNED 1941 GLOVE BOX VS A VERY CLEAN ORIGINAL. SEE THE GREEN TINT ON THE ORIG. 

[EmTee]

6 hours ago, 40 66S CENTURY said:

SEE THE GREEN TINT ON THE ORIG. 

I wonder if the original looked like the 'fresh' one when it was new...  Could the tint be caused by aging of the lacquer, or whatever was used to seal the surface?

[neil morse]

14 minutes ago, EmTee said:

I wonder if the original looked like the 'fresh' one when it was new...  Could the tint be caused by aging of the lacquer, or whatever was used to seal the surface?

Not according to the experts.  As I think is mentioned earlier in this discussion, there is documentation that indicates that the panels were tinted in either of two (unspecified) colors to match the tan or grey interiors.  I'm not sure which interior color the green was supposed to match!

[Grant Z]

HI SKIP @40 66S CENTURY, YES I HAVE SEEN THE OCCASIONAL PHOTO LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE KINDLY PROVIDED. THE GREEN TINT IS VERY SUBTLE. BILL ANDERSON STATES IN HIS BOOK 'RESTORATION FACTS 1941 BUICK' THAT THESE ARE TINTED IN "EITHER OF TWO COLORS".

 

I LOOK FORWARD TO MEETING YOU AT THE NATIONAL MEET IN 11 DAYS TIME. ITS SO COLD HERE IN AUSTRALIA THAT I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO SUMMER IN THE USA.

[Shootey]

I have a glove box door in fine shape except for some fingerprints. What is a good harmless way to clean it?

[neil morse]

I would be hesitant to use anything stronger than gentle soap and water (like dishwashing liquid).

[40 66S CENTURY]

WE USED ACETONE AND SOFT CLOTH[& PLENTY OF FRESH AIR!!] AND REMOVED THE PROTECTIVE COATING BUT NOTHING WILL REMOVE THE OXIDATION UNDER THE COATING/, AS FAR AS WE HAVE FOUND SINCE 1973!

[drhach]

18 hours ago, 40 66S CENTURY said:

WE USED ACETONE AND SOFT CLOTH[& PLENTY OF FRESH AIR!!] AND REMOVED THE PROTECTIVE COATING BUT NOTHING WILL REMOVE THE OXIDATION UNDER THE COATING/, AS FAR AS WE HAVE FOUND SINCE 1973!

I've wondered about laying a rag soaked in evapo-rust on the lid for a few days but I'm too afraid to try it.