Rough road

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Those Ts could handle it

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Looks like it couldn't handle it. It's abandoned

[wayne sheldon]

The model T is likely a 1917 or 1918 model. Some chance it could be an early 1919 model. Ford introduced the starter and generator (electrics package) and the demountable clincher wheels and rims for 1919 as standard equipment for the center-door sedans and the coupes. Intended to begin with the model year change about September of 1918, some delays in part's production pushed the improvement back to December of 1918. 

Both the wheels and the electrics package became standard equipment on the two enclosed body styles at that time. Only cars without the electrics package got oil sidelamps from the factory! Those, and the wheels are clearly non-demountable rim type make the car earlier than 1919 calendar year.

Model T touring cars and roadsters (the open cars) began getting the electrics package and demountable rim wheels AS AN OPTION about spring of 1919. Open cars those remained an option through the end of model T production. 

 

A researcher's nightmare trivia. Some sales literature in 1926 and 1927 said that the demountable wheels and starter would become standard equipment on the open cars as well as wire wheels becoming standard equipment on closed cars later in 1926 or 1927. But it never actually happened. A collector I met many years ago had the original sales receipt for a loss leader 1927 roadster, non-demountable wheels and no starter, sold in May of 1927, mere weeks before production ended!

 

Wonderful photo! Thank you.

[hook]

Back when muddin wasn't fun!

[8E45E]

They needed a Dependable Dodge!

 

 

Craig

[Walt G]

3 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Wonderful photo! Thank you.

And Wayne thank you for the great research information on the Ford model T.  It puts so much into perspective. We each have our own era/make/location-area we focus on as one can't know everything about everything ( although some here seem to think so 🤐 )  I always embrace accurate information , and I agree it can be a researcher's nightmare as to some topics and details. Because of the instant information now available at the touch of a button many in all facets of history now think if they email someone that they should have a response instantly or nearly so  not taking into account that often that information they seek an answer for has to be looked up in period accounts in periodicals, books, catalogs etc. IT TAKES TIME and life gets in the way on other things like health , commitments to family and work, etc. Patience in people has faded and so has mine for those demanding answers............

[wayne sheldon]

Thank you Walt G! 

I often comment on how little hobbyists actually knew about model Ts back in the 1950s. Most of what was "known" was actually from people's faulty memories from days long since gone. And oh boy did they remember a lot of things wrong!

A handful of serious model T collectors began actually studying era photographs, sales literature, and other sources to figure out what really went on and when. Building an accurate timeline for the hundreds (thousands?) of changes to the model T Ford has been a long and arduous task. At the risk of not mentioning a dozen other very important contributors, it was to some extent spearheaded by Bruce McCalley who as editor of the MTFCA's magazine "The Vintage Ford" for a couple decades pushed for research and accuracy of facts that really got the research going in the right direction.

Bruce, sometimes himself and sometimes in collaboration with another great model T expert, published several books on the subject. Those books were basically the first to be truly more than inaccurate "remembrances". Definitely not to in any way disparage the likes of Ralph Stein or Floyd Clymer (or many others), however most books published before the late 1960s contain a lot of errors and misinformation in their pages. The hobby owes a great deal of gratitude towards those earlier writers and publishers that greatly improved understanding and interest in early automobiles! Without those earlier works, there might not even be an antique automobile hobby today? (Okay, that probably would not have happened, but should be considered?) Your good friend and mentor Henry Austin Clark was certainly a collector ahead of his time!

 

It was the moving and opening of the Benson Ford Archive about thirty years ago that provided detailed looks into many of the changes made. However, historic research is tricky. No single source should be believed outright! The Benson Ford Archive provided detailed looks at recorded changes made, most of which were dated. However, the dates are suspect. Many were dated before planned changes were actually made, and the actual change could be moths or even a year or more before it actually happened. Other recorded changes were dated after the change had actually been made, and may have been dated on the date someone decided to write the date on the card, or by memory, the date given might have been wrong? A few recorded changes, with dates on them, were found for "changes" that never actually happened! There was an interesting discussion about that on the MTFCA forum by a couple researchers that found such "changes" in the archives. The change cards did not record that the decision to make a change was rescinded.

 

In the model T world still, today, discussions come along over and over again, pointing out era sales literature or information published in books more than a half century ago, claiming the information as accurate. Sales literature is often not accurate. Often they were intended to make the car more appealing than it really was (longer, lower, prettier than it really was?). Sometimes the marketing department would make a decision (like making the wire wheels standard equipment on the model T Ford in 1926), only to have demand outrun production capability making it impossible to actually do so.

 

Fun stuff!

 

 

Edited February 28 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Anybody know the car behind the T?

[8E45E]

On 2/27/2024 at 3:05 AM, wayne sheldon said:

The model T is likely a 1917 or 1918 model. Some chance it could be an early 1919 model. Ford introduced the starter and generator (electrics package) and the demountable clincher wheels and rims for 1919 as standard equipment for the center-door sedans and the coupes. Intended to begin with the model year change about September of 1918, some delays in part's production pushed the improvement back to December of 1918. 

Both the wheels and the electrics package became standard equipment on the two enclosed body styles at that time. Only cars without the electrics package got oil sidelamps from the factory! Those, and the wheels are clearly non-demountable rim type make the car earlier than 1919 calendar year.

Model T touring cars and roadsters (the open cars) began getting the electrics package and demountable rim wheels AS AN OPTION about spring of 1919. Open cars those remained an option through the end of model T production. 

 

A researcher's nightmare trivia. Some sales literature in 1926 and 1927 said that the demountable wheels and starter would become standard equipment on the open cars as well as wire wheels becoming standard equipment on closed cars later in 1926 or 1927. But it never actually happened. A collector I met many years ago had the original sales receipt for a loss leader 1927 roadster, non-demountable wheels and no starter, sold in May of 1927, mere weeks before production ended!

Does also apply to Canadian production Model T's?

 

Craig

[8E45E]

12 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

In the model T world still, today, discussions come along over and over again, pointing out era sales literature or information published in books more than a half century ago, claiming the information as accurate.

I like how American Model T collectors prefer the Canadian fordor Ford Tourings with four opening doors over the US 'faux-dor' three-door tourings, with the stamped outline of a door opening.  A lot of Canadian producion Model T's were RHD, making the opposite door operational a necessity.

 

Craig

[wayne sheldon]

10 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Craig

I find the whole study of the Canadian model Ts fascinating! For years, it lagged behind the study of USA built Ts seriously began in the 1960s. Myths and legends surrounded what was different, what was better or worse, the when and why of minor differences. 

The driver's door, and the simple reason why was of course the most obvious difference. The bodies were made the same to accommodate either right handed or left handed steering necessary for Canadian export (and one left side of the road providence which is an interesting fact in itself!). A single local Canadian body production line built most of the bodies to fit either right hand or left hand steering.

Numerous other car and chassis details were interesting in that often Canadian production lead the way on many changes. A simple detail like the location of the oil filler plug's location on the rear axle housing  was moved to its more logical lower place fully two years before USA production made that change. Other more obvious and styling changes like the one-man folding top, and the fancier slanted windshields on open cars came along nearly three years before USA production went those steps (1920 versus 1923).

As far as I know, nobody has yet found factual information about whether some of those changes were done deliberately that way? Or did Ford of Canada simply go their own way some times? Clearly, Canadian and USA worked together on most design and technical changes. Most major model changes were pretty much hand in hand.

The whole USA and Canadian production thing to avoid import taxes was a bit bizarre and (for lack of a better word) incestuous by nature. Most of the outsource parts manufacturing companies were in fact owned as subsidiaries of the USA companies that provided many of the parts for USA production. Clasco (sp?) Lamps was largely owned by one of the top three lamp producers for Ford USA (I forget offhand which one?), and one of the largest producers of bodies for Ford of Canada was largely owned by Fischer Bodies of the USA. Fischer was one of the lesser of the top five producers of bodies for Ford USA, and even continued providing bodies for Ford for some time after they were acquired by General Motors. (The 1924 model T Ford Coupe I used to have had a Fischer body on it.)

Not all bad. Those companies had to keep production moving at a fast pace in the USA! Molds, patterns, dies, and jigs to aid in production wore out, and had to be replaced often. The slower pace for Canadian production allowed them to use such tooling a bit longer. So the USA parent companies would ship worn but still usable tooling across the lakes to keep costs down for Canadian production. Meanwhile, the Canadian subsidiaries employed thousand of Canadian workers with meaningful jobs at good pay (relative to the times).

 

The MTFCI (Model T Ford Club International) has a very good judging system, and every year awards high quality restorations of model T Fords trophies and recognition for quality and attention to detail and authenticity. Their judging guidelines book is updated almost every year, and about four years ago they made a big push to expand the Canadian sections of those guidelines. Russ Furstnow is the Head Judge in the club, and spent many (hundreds?) hours over a couple years on the Canadian expansion! They take "getting it right" seriously!