1959 Lincoln formal sedan by Hess & Eisenhart, Indianapolis, Indiana

[John_S_in_Penna]

Here is a model, not often seen, and which collectors

tend to overlook.  It is rare, however:  a 1959 Lincoln

formal sedan, a factory-authorized model modified by

coachbuilder Hess & Eisenhart and shown in the 1959

Lincoln catalogue.  It's for sale by a dealer in Indianapolis

and currently priced too high at $59,000, but it's worth noting:

 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/listing/1959-lincoln-continental-indianapolis-in-2748038

 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

These are no longer than the regular 1959 Lincolns.

The roofline was changed and a vinyl top added.

There was also a limousine version with a divider window.

All were very expensive when new, but they're overlooked today.

 

The car was a previous AACA award winner and appears

to be in excellent condition.  Here is the text of the ad--

and contact information--with some more pictures:

 

MILES: 41,760 (NOT ACTUAL)  Odometer does not work

ENGINE: 430 C.I V8

TRANSMISSION: 3-SPEED TURBO-DRIVE AUTOMATIC

HORSEPOWER: 350

WEIGHT:  5,700 LBS

EXTERIOR COLOR: BLACK

INTERIOR COLOR: GREY BROADCLOTH

PRODUCTION: 1 OF 78

 

This 1959 Lincoln Continental has been owned by its current enthusiast owner for 28 years. A ground up restoration was completed from 1988-1990. Post restoration, the car won numerous awards. The Lincoln has been professionally maintained during current ownership. This MKIV is one of 78 Formal Sedans built in 1959, 49 Limousines (with divider but same body) were also built in 1959. The 1958-60 Lincolns are the largest unibody cars ever built (factory, not custom like the mid-60s Lehmann Peterson limousines). The cost of the Continental new was $9,208.00, right at the top of most expensive cars you could buy in America. The epitome of luxury and class was defined by the Continental in the late 1950s through the 1960s, and still carries a defined image and presence today.

 

Awards:

AACA Junior  First Place in 1995

Senior First Place with the Antique Automobile Club of America in 1996

Nominated for a "National AACA Award" in 1996
Scored 99 points of 100 at LCOC meet in 1996

Invited to be photographed for Collectible Automobile 1997

 

Please consider this an invitation to visit MOTORVAULT!  

Josh Stiegman  317-643-1444

Brian Henry  317-520-4663

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

[m-mman]

Very nice, but it won its awards in the late 90s and wouldn’t score that high today. The trunk lining is disgusting (from a 100 point perspective). 
 

RARE, to be sure, but they are asking top convertible money for what is a 4 door sedan.  This is one of those cars that people look at and talk about but they aren’t clamoring to buy.  

[John_S_in_Penna]

Forum member W_Higgins (Walter Higgins) has

two such 1959 limousines, according to his user signature.

He hasn't been active on the forum much this year,

but it would be great if he would comment on this Lincoln.

 

What do people here think this Lincoln is really worth?

Half of the asking price?  Or a bit more?

 

https://forums.aaca.org/profile/93394-w_higgins/

 

[DavidinCA]

It’s a tough call.  I like the 58-60 Lincolns and Continentals, but many others don’t. In my mind, the 58 is the most interesting, if not the best car, and it seems they became less interesting each year.  I’d say this is the best of the 59-60 closed cars and being a formal sedan, much more desirable than the limousine since the front seat will be adjustable.  On the other hand, the reverse rear window on a regular sedan is part of the interest and black is not the most exciting color.  I’d think somewhere in the 30s is the right place, but it is exceptionally nice.  

[B Jake Moran]

John,

You may recall that Goldenrod Garage had one of these for sale for years I think at $21,000?  It was nice too, but probably more like a 2 - car     
 

(Goldenrod Garage is no longer as the proprietor passed away).  This car that is posted is more likely a $25,000 car and there are only a handful of potential buyers anywhere.  Any salt and pepper haired potential owner with $50,000 is after speed and cache. Not a dowdy fifties formal sedan.  Not showing up cruise night and waving at the others “hey come see what I just bought!”

[alsancle]

I like it!   problem is that 60K buys a lot of interesting cars from that era.   But price aside,  I have never touched one in my life so I like the rarity.

[John_S_in_Penna]

37 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

John,

You may recall that Goldenrod Garage had one of these for sale for years I think at $21,000?

These were produced for 1959 and 1960.  I don't recall one at

Goldenrod Garage, but I do remember one in the Hershey

car corral over 10 years ago:  It was restored, excellent, and

painted a dark green--likely an incorrect color.  I actually went

to see one for sale in New Jersey when I was passing through

the area:  It was a bit rough and needed work.

 

I agree, Jake:  Limousines and "professional cars" have a

limited following.

[m-mman]

7 minutes ago, alsancle said:

problem is that 60K buys a lot of interesting cars from that era.   But price aside,  I have never touched one in my life so I like the rarity.

That’s it. On these cars the story is always:
It’s rare, I want to see it, but for what you are asking, I’ll buy something else. 

[deac]

I never knew these custom coach built Lincolns even existed.  I like the look of them much more than standard issue ones.  Thanks for posting it and of course the story behind the car; fascinating!

 

For me this is one of the many benefits of being an active member of the not mine AACA message boards!

Edited December 13, 2023 by deac (see edit history)

[W_Higgins]

As H&E's go, this is one of the nicer ones.  For the last 20 years I have scrounged up every bit of information I can on them.  Out of the 297 built of both models across both years, I can account for 57 of them.  That's a 19% survival rate.  New discoveries are seldom anymore, but this discussion caused me to do a quick search again this morning and I found another that I didn't have recorded.

 

Out of all the known H&E's, the subject car is probably in the top five in terms of combined condition and authenticity.  I will not comment about the price.  Value can be rationalized up or down based on a lot of different factors.  How such things are discussed on this forum is often very off-putting.  My better car is a major project.  If I gave it away for free with an endowment worth as much as they are asking for this car, it would still cost that much again to restore it and everybody would still bitch that the finished project is not worth what it cost to do it, yet if I proposed crushing it, I would be called a heretic.  I find value in adopting the projects that I love and my motivations are not based upon the expectations of others.

 

The seller has owned this car for quite some time and it is well-known in Lincoln circles.  I have never seen in it person, nor do I know the seller personally.  I stumbled across the video linked to below sometime last week.

 

On the whole, from an authenticity standpoint, there are a lot of very correct things about this car where other people often make compromises during a restoration.  '58 - '60 Lincolns are difficult cars to do and it's common for people to either cut corners when reassembling them, or they simply improvise because they don't do their research.  I don't see any of that here.  The trunk kit was pointed out as being "disgusting".  I think that's a bit dramatic.  It's certainly not correct.  To my knowledge, the correct pattern trunk kit has never been reproduced.  It was '59-only.  A '60 kit will fit, but the pattern is still not correct.  The grain on the vinyl top is also not correct.  I've yet to see a restored car that does have the correct grain and I think it is also not available.  A lot of people use the same long-grain material used on Model A closed car tops and the style is right in spirit, but the grain should be much more subdued, like how it would look if you drove a steamroller over it.  The closest thing I have seen available today is interior seat leather for 1920's open cars with the same subdued long grain to it.  Aside from age related wear, the only real concern I see is on the left top panel where the roof extension is, there is a 90-degree protrusion telegraphing through the material.  It's not following the layout of the extension.  Maybe it's something with the padding or maybe there's a patch underneath, but it would certainly be something to check.  The only other thing is the hood ornament looks to have a shim crammed under it.  There were variations in the angle of the mounting bases of Continental stars over a period of years and maybe it's the wrong one, but it looks like if you removed the shim the star would sit proper.

 

All in all, it looks to be a very smartly done and well cared for car.  If it is mechanically sorted and the a/c works, all the better as it's the little bugs that eat your lunch with these cars.  The interior has clearly been replaced and looks to be correct in every detail.  If someone were seriously interested in it and isn't simply all hat and no cattle, then they should pursue it, and then have a go at sorting out the details thereafter.  Sometimes sellers motivations are more than simply a number.  It's kind of funny how so many people have this monolithic idea about the hobby that doesn't extend beyond their own worldview.  As I've tracked these cars, a number of them have undergone significant restoration and I don't think it's because any of the owners gave a ding dong about collecting accolades at a cruise night.

 

As to the green H&E, it may not be incorrect at all.  I haven't seen any documentation for that particular car, but the story was that the original owner ordered it painted in his school color, or some such.  It was a $10K custom ordered car.  That's not outside the realm of possibility.  Other H&E's sport custom requests outside the "black with gray wool broadcloth" standard.  At least two have leather interiors.

 

If it's the one I think you visited, the New Jersey project car has been restored (it was for sale as a project back around 2007).  Quite the feat as it was so far gone.

 

The Goldenrod car was not close to being on the same level as this one. 

 

I can't think of any others as nice as this one for sale right now, though there are always plenty of projects that need a loving home.  If you happen to stumble across any in the wild, I'm always interested in hearing about them so I can add them to the list.  I also have VIN's for several that I don't have photos of.         

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by W_Higgins (see edit history)

[B Jake Moran]

Thank you Mr. Higgins for enlightening all of us with your insight. This is why the Not Mine forum is an asset.  Based on your collection, this is clearly a favorite.  

I can appreciate that you find mentions of value rather insulting, but there are few folks who want to own one of these cars.  I have been interested in LWB cars for some time, and despite an often low production number, there is a small market for them, and therefore value judgments are relevant, but kind of frustrating. 

 

I paid close attention to one aspect of your analysis - that was the discussion of correctness. Making a H&E 59-60 Lincoln absolutely correct seems almost impossible.  Unless you, meaning you since you are the subject matter expert on these, perhaps with a small cadre of fellow Lincoln Club enthusiasts - have the restoration guide printed and available for prospective restorers or those who wish to maintain one of these, then an incorrect application of restoration BECOMES the correct method. 

I am sure you may disagree with that sentence, and I am not talking about a wild departure from what was there, but in your analysis you pointed out cars that are close, but not perfect. Even the discussed car is not ideal. You stated the Goldenrod Garage car was far from correct.   To my untrained eye, it appeared to be quite a nice car and one which would give a potential owner the satisfaction derived from owning a 59-60 H&E Lincoln. 

 

Per your comments, perhaps paraphrased, a new roof covering is unobtainium and a person correctly restoring one would need to do a special process to get it correct.  

 

As mentioned, I love LWB cars and there is no market for restored cars. Not even close to what a restorer would spend. 

 

As to your comment here - 

My better car is a major project.  If I gave it away for free with an endowment worth as much as they are asking for this car, it would still cost that much again to restore it and everybody would still bitch that the finished project is not worth what it cost to do it, yet if I proposed crushing it, I would be called a heretic.  I find value in adopting the projects that I love and my motivations are not based upon the expectations of others.

 

You are thus summarizing the hobby as it exists today, for all cars.  My point that this is not a car that most older folks just retired

 would want - is not meant to criticize your choice or mine, but rather is a true statement about what we likely find a fault in the current state of the hobby.  Of course, someone can say I am painting with a broad brush, but as with most of us, we have gone to the show n shines, car shows, even AACA events and seen restomods and muscle cars dominate the show fields.  

 

I have personally witnessed some rare cars get crushed, and yes most people say that person is a heretic.  I have seen perfectly preserved projects sitting in western salvage yards that are now Toyotas, or new Fords.  A person can not stop it.  We have all expressed sadness at posts of salvage yards, especially in northern states, or hoarded collections of deteriorated hulks that can not be saved and said "shame on that person!" 

I just tend to disagree, and say if you own the car, you can do what you want, even crush it. 

I don't think you will.  

To summarize, I am glad folks have restored a few of these H&E cars.  I would not be interested in knit picking them unless they are wildly off target.  The asking sale price and the current non interest from most (not all) of the collector car market is relevant and at the same time - not relevant.  I can't get any more ambiguous than that!  

[B Jake Moran]

On 12/12/2023 at 6:53 AM, m-mman said:

That’s it. On these cars the story is always:
It’s rare, I want to see it, but for what you are asking, I’ll buy something else. 

A very correct statement.  There are some folks on here with a lot of money to spend on the hobby.  I am not one of them. To me, if I could own one very cool low production car like this H&E Lincoln, or spend that $60,000 on a collection, it's a no brainer - collection. 

 

Why do we love a car?  Usually it's the static style of it, others like the drive and how it transports a person back to a bygone era.  

 

All of that can be achieved without spending $60,000.  I can think of a neat 4 car collection, or 3 car - with an average purchase price of $15,000 (4 cars) or $20,000 (3 cars) that would provide the same driving and ownership enjoyment as this one car.  

 

I am NOT denigrating this car the same as you are not.  Except for a few Lincoln collectors with deep pockets, who are into preservation of special Lincolns specifically, this car has little interest. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by B Jake Moran (see edit history)

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, B Jake Moran said:

A very correct statement.  There are some folks on here with a lot of money to spend on the hobby.  I am not one of them. To me, if I could own one very cool low production car like this H&E Lincoln, or spend that $60,000 on a collection, it's a no brainer - collection. 

 

Why do we love a car?  Usually it's the static style of it, others like the drive and how it transports a person back to a bygone era.  

 

All of that can be achieved without spending $60,000.  I can think of a neat 4 car collection, or 3 car - with an average purchase price of $15,000 (4 cars) or $20,000 (3 cars) that would provide the same driving and ownership enjoyment as this one car.  

 

I am NOT denigrating this car the same as you are not.  Except for a few Lincoln collectors with deep pockets, who are into preservation of special Lincolns specifically, this car has little interest. 

The issue with 4 cars instead of 1 is if you are driving them.   It is a lot of work and effort and expense to maintain a single car as a reliable driver.   4 cars is 4 times the expense.    Typically, I would advise to find one car you really love and learn every nut and bolt on it, where the parts can be found and drive the tires off of it.

[m-mman]

I like 58-60 Lincolns.  In 1979 I traded a 1958 Cadillac convertible for two 59 Lincoln convertibles. Keeping the silver/red convertible selling the copper convertible and ended up with a free car. 
I moved it around from storage to storage and eventually totally dismantled it when I got my “car house”.  Then it sat in pieces for 30+ years.

 Wife died, nothing to do, meaning that I had run out of excuses to assemble it again, as I now had both time and money.  So I did. 
$25,000(?) to assemble it? Who keeps track?
58-60 Lincoln it was a difficult job!  Probably why I put it off for 30 years. 

 

BUT I also wanted an H&E car and had been chasing them for the last 30 years also.  Never having the three elements of car, money and location line up enough to make a deal. 

The last month of assembling the convertible up pops a 59 H&E sedan in San Diego (2 hour drive) advertised in Craigslist and Hemmings for $12,000. Looked really good in photos (old, needs work but not messed with). I could drive it home!

There it was!  Everything was lining up. Just what I wanted!  Then I stopped and thought……do I really need two of these Lincolns?  I was exhausted after assembling the convertible and not in the mood to do another, so I dropped it.

 

 I knew that if I didn’t get the San Diego car to fulfill my dream then I would never go back again.  Time and space, I kept my convertible and passed on the sedan……

 

I still have a collection of rare H&E dealer and factory promotional items, but a real car? No, I have moved on. 

[gofasttoday]

 I had a 58 convertible back in the day the book said it was worth $12k new chrome every thing work as it should . Had it advertised for $5k ended up selling for $3500 had that much in chrome.

[W_Higgins]

Saying that I am insulted by any of this is an incorrect assumption.  We clearly view the hobby differently and have different objectives.

 

I didn't state that the Goldenrod car was far from correct, but of the whole equation of authenticity and condition, it is very much the lesser car.  The top is badly wrinkled and split, the front seat has been remade in vinyl, the remaining wool interior is stained and badly moth-eaten, the engine bay is frumpy, none of the car is detailed overall, and it needs a thorough going-over.  For anyone hellbent on not putting more into a car than it can be resold for, recommissioning a '60 Lincoln will quickly bring a person to their knees.  That doesn't make it a bad car, but it's not even close to being on par with the one being discussed here.

 

It appears to be a solid car with a lot of potential.  I hope it is in the hands of a new owner that loves it and defines value as being something more than a stack of receipts in a file folder.  Were it not for people willing to go upside-down in a project for the love of saving something significant to them, there wouldn't be any decent cars available for anyone to buy at all.

Edited December 13, 2023 by W_Higgins (see edit history)

[W_Higgins]

2 hours ago, m-mman said:

Then I stopped and thought……do I really need two of these Lincolns?  I was exhausted after assembling the convertible and not in the mood to do another, so I dropped it.

The voice of experience!  They take a lot of care and feeding.  Beautiful convertible!

 

Admittedly, I slowed on the progress with my Limo for the same reasons after diving into my '60.  They are essentially the same car, but I still love the H&E's.  I feel they are the best proportioned of all the body styles and I love all the unique details and the various histories that come along with them (where such things can be known -- no factory records have surfaced thus far).

 

My better '60 Premiere shown below.  A combination of restored and excellent original.  Every home should have one.

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

Checking today, I see the price has been

reduced slightly to $56,000:

 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/listing/1959-lincoln-continental-indianapolis-in-2748038

 

[m-mman]

Still a very nice interesting beautiful car, but also still a lot of money for what is essentially a 4 door sedan…….

 

One of those cars that will likely need to be discounted well below “what it’s worth” in order to make a deal, but then isn’t that the actual value?