1930 Pontiac roadster TROG car

[Timchek]

All, so with the help of many of you here, it appears that what I have is a 1930 Pontiac roadster body shell with a ‘28 Pontiac grill shell.  Installed as well when purchased and again with help of many here is a stovebolt 6 “splasher” or “low pressure ” babbitt engine.  Behind the stovebolt resides an early 30’s Chevy three speed with a freewheel unit.  As I’ve researched online I’ve seen that Chevrolet began using this basic engine design in 1929.  The gentleman I purchased the vehicle from shared that he had acquired the chassis and transmission from the same individual but not as a unit.  The chassis has what appears to me to be Huck brakes based upon the research I’ve been able to accomplish online.  I’m beginning to suspect that the chassis is not a Pontiac but actually a similar vintage Chevrolet based upon the Huck brakes as well as the scenario in which the chassis was acquired.  Where on an early ‘30’s Chevy or potentially Pontiac chassis might I look to find a chassis number or other identifying characteristics to identify the actual chassis I have here?

As well, there is a homemade adapter between the early “30’s Chevy three speed and the stovebolt, unless Chevy changed the bellhousing bolt pattern during the course of the Stovebolt production run, it would seem I should be able to find a bellhousing that would mate those two units together?

Thank you to all who have been of help identifying the components here!
 

 

[DFeeney]

Nice Build

[RoyG]

Looks Great! my 1929 Pontiac Vin number is on the rear frame cross member.

[sagefinds]

It's a pretty neat build. I would be tempted to run the exhaust further back so you don't choke yourself on a long cruise.

[Timchek]

Thanks, seen at fall Carlisle and purchased a couple weeks later.  Car is as purchased, the gentleman that built it did incredibly nice work fabricating replacement interior body structure for all the original body wood, all of which was formed from rectangular tubing and sheet-metal.  It does need an exhaust system, (still considering what that should look like to fit the build) a full electrical system and exterior lighting. Still largely in planning stages of finishing the build, most of what I need should be available hot rod aftermarket.  The components I’m most concerned about finding are the upper windshield stanchions which are missing.  As I understand they made few of these open cars, other GM open car components may work (Buick) from what I’ve gathered online.  
Hope to have it on the road next summer!?

 

[wayne sheldon]

Okay, not my "thing", but actually maybe an interesting piece of automotive history. Such modified cars are generally frowned upon in "antique" automobile circles. However?

 

I happen to have been a longtime fan of model T Ford and other "speedsters", and in those circles, I tend to be regarded as somewhat of a "purist". Many thousands of model Ts and other cars were rebuilt into speedsters during the "speedster" era. Very few of them survived past World War Two scrap drives, or early antique automobile hobby reclaiming of parts for "proper" restorations. Most speedsters today are some level of recreations, and frankly, most of them are not original era cars at all. Frankly, when it comes to speedsters, I do not mind total recreations, as long as they are built to a historic normal using era methods and correct materials. But most are not done that way. All of the five I have restored and driven contained significant amounts of original era speedster pieces! You would be amazed at how much of that stuff (rejects from the parts piles?) used to show up at swap meets. All of them were done to an era standard style, and not over-restored modern "art pieces".

But that is me.

 

I often call the model T speedsters the "longest running automotive hobby in automotive history"! Technically, the first "model T speedsters" were the preproduction experimental chassis with simple bodies used by Ford engineers to test the designs for the new model. The first of those was built and driven in 1907, a year and a half before the model T was first on the market! In 1909, Ford built two factory "specials" to be run in the New York to Seattle coast to coast race. In 1910, Ford engineers began building a handful of "specials" based upon the model T chassis and designs, but with special engines and racing bodies, to be raced for publicity purposes. Those cars did quite well in the racing world for over two years. One of them, the one with the largest engine, beat the Blitzen Benz in a fair race! Before that day, the Blitzen Benz was considered the fastest racing car in the world!

By 1910, many Ford dealerships were taking the model t chassis with a cutdown body, and often no fenders, and using them in local competitions or cross country demonstrations. Numerous era photos can be found of these.

Also about 1910, individuals began to get into the act! Numerous companies began making and selling bits and pieces specifically for modifying one's Ford into something racier looking. Within a few years, many hundreds of speedsters were being built all across the country, model Ts and almost anything else. By the 1920s, there were thousands of them, and more were being built every day!

Unfortunately, nobody ever kept records of most of them.  Probably thousands of era photos exist, I have nearly a thousand of them on my computer! And thousands of remaining parts of era speedsters still exist. I have personally had, bought, sold, used in a "restoration" then sold, or even still have a hundred original era pieces of different era speedsters. Nobody will ever know just how many speedsters were built in the "speedster era". But the "speedster era" did end. However, that was not the end!

Speedsters did continue to be built for a variety of reasons for all practical purposes to this very day and beyond! Even when their popularity dropped low enough that nearly all the hundreds of companies catering to them had moved on to better markets, some people still built speedsters. Their popularity peaked about 1923. By 1925, the nearly fifty companies that had been building bodies for the speedster hobby was down to maybe a dozen. By 1927, only a handful were still struggling with specifically speedster bodies. Only by coincidence, the speedster era ended right about the same time the model T ended its production run. The speedster era gave way to something slightly different in focus and concept. It was followed by something some people refer to as a go-job (or gow job or other spellings?). 

The go-job eventually gave way to the "hot rod". The term "hot rod" was first used in the late 1930s, and publish if I recall correctly either 1938 or 1939. However, the term "hot rod" did not become common until after World War Two. The differences between "go-jobs" and "hot rods" is mostly semantics (what's in a name?), but also about the era or history surrounding them (prewar and postwar).

In the postwar return to normalcy, the hot rod became a centerpiece! And they have continued through numerous changing styles and iterations still today. 

Again, while "not my thing", early postwar hot rods are also a part of automotive history. I don't know and I won't ask the actual history of your car? (If it is even really known?) But it has the right look, methods and materials (what can be seen in the photographs?), of an early postwar hot rod. If it was in fact put together only recently? Someone did a good job of bringing together a lot of unlikely early pieces to get that effect. Properly "restored" I would appreciate it.

("restored" in quotes because it would not be the commonly preferred today back-to-factory restoration), However, "restored" does not necessarily mean back to factory. Look it up in any really good old dictionary with more than one definition opinion in it. It also can and does mean to any previous state of existence.

Back in the late 1940s, the Chevrolet "Babbitt beater" six was very popular for hopping up! All sorts of high performance heads, cams, and manifolds were being manufactured and sold!

 

Interesting stuff regardless.

[Oldtech]

Interesting story. My Uncles used to build T speedsters. They called them "Bugs" up here in Canada.  Unfortunately there are only a couple of pictures of them somewhere in the family collections.

[Timchek]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:12 PM, wayne sheldon said:

Okay, not my "thing", but actually maybe an interesting piece of automotive history. Such modified cars are generally frowned upon in "antique" automobile circles. However?

 

I happen to have been a longtime fan of model T Ford and other "speedsters", and in those circles, I tend to be regarded as somewhat of a "purist". Many thousands of model Ts and other cars were rebuilt into speedsters during the "speedster" era. Very few of them survived past World War Two scrap drives, or early antique automobile hobby reclaiming of parts for "proper" restorations. Most speedsters today are some level of recreations, and frankly, most of them are not original era cars at all. Frankly, when it comes to speedsters, I do not mind total recreations, as long as they are built to a historic normal using era methods and correct materials. But most are not done that way. All of the five I have restored and driven contained significant amounts of original era speedster pieces! You would be amazed at how much of that stuff (rejects from the parts piles?) used to show up at swap meets. All of them were done to an era standard style, and not over-restored modern "art pieces".

But that is me.

 

I often call the model T speedsters the "longest running automotive hobby in automotive history"! Technically, the first "model T speedsters" were the preproduction experimental chassis with simple bodies used by Ford engineers to test the designs for the new model. The first of those was built and driven in 1907, a year and a half before the model T was first on the market! In 1909, Ford built two factory "specials" to be run in the New York to Seattle coast to coast race. In 1910, Ford engineers began building a handful of "specials" based upon the model T chassis and designs, but with special engines and racing bodies, to be raced for publicity purposes. Those cars did quite well in the racing world for over two years. One of them, the one with the largest engine, beat the Blitzen Benz in a fair race! Before that day, the Blitzen Benz was considered the fastest racing car in the world!

By 1910, many Ford dealerships were taking the model t chassis with a cutdown body, and often no fenders, and using them in local competitions or cross country demonstrations. Numerous era photos can be found of these.

Also about 1910, individuals began to get into the act! Numerous companies began making and selling bits and pieces specifically for modifying one's Ford into something racier looking. Within a few years, many hundreds of speedsters were being built all across the country, model Ts and almost anything else. By the 1920s, there were thousands of them, and more were being built every day!

Unfortunately, nobody ever kept records of most of them.  Probably thousands of era photos exist, I have nearly a thousand of them on my computer! And thousands of remaining parts of era speedsters still exist. I have personally had, bought, sold, used in a "restoration" then sold, or even still have a hundred original era pieces of different era speedsters. Nobody will ever know just how many speedsters were built in the "speedster era". But the "speedster era" did end. However, that was not the end!

Speedsters did continue to be built for a variety of reasons for all practical purposes to this very day and beyond! Even when their popularity dropped low enough that nearly all the hundreds of companies catering to them had moved on to better markets, some people still built speedsters. Their popularity peaked about 1923. By 1925, the nearly fifty companies that had been building bodies for the speedster hobby was down to maybe a dozen. By 1927, only a handful were still struggling with specifically speedster bodies. Only by coincidence, the speedster era ended right about the same time the model T ended its production run. The speedster era gave way to something slightly different in focus and concept. It was followed by something some people refer to as a go-job (or gow job or other spellings?). 

The go-job eventually gave way to the "hot rod". The term "hot rod" was first used in the late 1930s, and publish if I recall correctly either 1938 or 1939. However, the term "hot rod" did not become common until after World War Two. The differences between "go-jobs" and "hot rods" is mostly semantics (what's in a name?), but also about the era or history surrounding them (prewar and postwar).

In the postwar return to normalcy, the hot rod became a centerpiece! And they have continued through numerous changing styles and iterations still today. 

Again, while "not my thing", early postwar hot rods are also a part of automotive history. I don't know and I won't ask the actual history of your car? (If it is even really known?) But it has the right look, methods and materials (what can be seen in the photographs?), of an early postwar hot rod. If it was in fact put together only recently? Someone did a good job of bringing together a lot of unlikely early pieces to get that effect. Properly "restored" I would appreciate it.

("restored" in quotes because it would not be the commonly preferred today back-to-factory restoration), However, "restored" does not necessarily mean back to factory. Look it up in any really good old dictionary with more than one definition opinion in it. It also can and does mean to any previous state of existence.

Back in the late 1940s, the Chevrolet "Babbitt beater" six was very popular for hopping up! All sorts of high performance heads, cams, and manifolds were being manufactured and sold!

 

Interesting stuff regardless.

Wayne, really interesting and informative post.  The old “barn find” hot rod feel of the car was what appealed to me about the car.  I just purchased the car and it is a very recent build.  I have to tell you that your post really influenced my thought process as to the path I should take with the car.  Although I really liked the “old school” vibe of the car,  I was considering possibly switching to juice brakes in the future, and as well some potential drivetrain modifications, (trans and rear axle).  I intend to get the car on the road and put some miles on it after I get an electrical system and lights installed.  Currently going thru the mechanical brakes, if after some road miles I gain some comfort with the stopping capability of the mechanical brakes I think I am now more inclined to retain them for the period correctness.  As well although I was considering a short megaphone style exhaust system on the left side of the car as is common now, I am considering a full length single or dual pipe system down the left side of the car dumping just in front of the rear wheel which I suspect fits the current theme of the car.

Really appreciate the thoughtful post!

Al

 

[wayne sheldon]

Thank you, and you are welcome!

The mechanical brakes are an arguable point. I am biased, with my interest in earlier cars. The fact is, that many people are afraid of mechanical brakes for many reasons. Not the least of which is they do not understand them. They feel that brakes were actuated mechanically because people back then did not know better. General Motors mechanical brakes in the 1930s were actually quite effective. In the mid 1920s, as hydraulic brakes were becoming more available, most people feared them. People believed the newfangled things were unreliable, therefore unsafe. And to some extent, they were right. While Chrysler adopted the hydraulic brakes early, and helped fuel further development of hydraulic brakes, most other automakers weren't ready to accept them, and instead had their engineers improve the mechanical systems for mechanically actuated brakes. By the early 1930s, GM's mechanical brakes worked quite well.

There are a few minor advantages to modern power assisted and disc brakes. However, the ultimate reality is that maximum braking ability is between the rubber and the road! Maximum braking is just before the wheel locks and goes into a skid. How that magic point is reached doesn't really matter. As long as you can press the pedal hard enough to lock the wheels, and develop the skill to not lock the wheels? All the modern improvements to braking won't make much difference. (Although arguably, that last ten feet might be THE difference?)

 

For collector cars, I personally prefer mechanical brakes! Collector cars often are made to sit for lengthy times, and hydraulic brake systems can go bad from lack of use. It is not uncommon for a car to sit for awhile, and then be taken out and have the brakes fail within a couple hundred miles. Mechanical brakes on the other hand, can often sit for a coupe decades, and with nothing more than a few squirts of oil at a few key points be as good as the day the car was parked. If they sit long enough, in poor conditions, damp or whatever? Mechanical brakes might rust up and freeze, becoming partially or completely unusable. In that case, they would require a fair amount of work to get them working properly again.

 

The most important aspect of mechanical brakes is that they be serviced well, and PROPERLY adjusted! Some parts do require a bit of oil occasionally (especially cables through flexible tubes!). And the pull angle of levers is critical! For mechanical brakes to work properly, those two things are most important.