john hess Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 I have been chasing a vibration on this car for sometime. I've narrowed it down to the new clutch not balanced to the flywheel.... they are both at a local shop as I write.... my question is this.... the flywheel, not certain if original to engine, is not drilled for a dowel pin.. the crankshaft is drilled for dowel pin, but is missing or was removed... should I be concerned after having both rebalanced as a set ? ..... I am certain this vibration is a result of the new pressure plate not being balanced before installing... my bad, rookie mistake..... car would vibrate with clutch pushed in and revving engine.... I say 'certain ' because I removed this clutch and started the car.... instant change in vibration. virtually all vibration is gone and I can idle the engine down to approximately 150 rpm.... not possible before. always started surging as idle was lowered and would stall itself out at a slightly higher rpm..... John 🤔 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 Never heard of having to rebalance a flywheel when replacing the clutch. The clutch and pressure plate should have come balanced, if not they are defective. I would return them and ask for new ones. There are a lot of bad parts being sold these days, quality has slipped quite a few notches in the last 20 years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted May 20, 2023 Author Share Posted May 20, 2023 starter gear teeth are being touched up... some funky wear on a few causing starter to hang up sometimes.... shop will balance as a set and mark them..... as I said, my rookie mistake.... 'new' clutch was a reman from some tropical port... even clutch plate was off metrically.... 1 1/8 inch must be different over there... had to source a 10 in plate at Carlisle 2 years ago... hence the mismatched setup.... also,since I had both clutches side by side, I could see there was no evidence of balancing on the new one..... old clutch had a few lightening holes drilled for balance. I did not think to take pictures or I would post. now, to reseal that transmission leak while waiting for shop work to be done !! 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 john, if you are referring to a dowel for "clocking" the flywheel, probably does not require one. Buick does not have one. AND mounting holes are symmetrical. It has to be marked to get the sucker installed correctly as the ignition timing mark is on the flywheel. Jeep Cherokee clutch/pressure plate is a perfect match for the Buick. May work on Pontiac? Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted May 20, 2023 Author Share Posted May 20, 2023 thanks Ben.. yes, I have researched and found jeep clutch disc c2ydompatible also... 10 inch 10 spline 1 1/8 shaft. this particular year car, 53, timing marks are on front balancer.. so.. I'm taking this as no worries as far as balance to crankshaft... dowel pins were for aligning timing marks on flywheel to crankshaft only ?. this makes sense.... thank you... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted May 20, 2023 Share Posted May 20, 2023 (edited) A 6 cylinder crank should have been balanced to itself. There should be no such issues as the "external balance" found on some American V8s. I realize the later cars have the timing marks on front, in fact I added that feature to my 36, but are the flywheel marks still present on the 53? If so that might be a way to align it the way the factory probably did. In theory it should make no difference though. As for the clutch, I suspect Pontiac may have balanced the pressure plate and flywheel together. That is insanity if true, but on the 36 there were obvious factory paint marks aligning the pressure plate to the flywheel. Hmmm..... The marks were not lined up when I took it apart, but they are now. It's not bad, but I still am not convinced the flywheel and pressure plate are balanced as good as they could be. Make sure the flywheel gets balanced separately first, and then that they only take metal from the pressure plate when balancing the pressure plate. Otherwise you won't be able to replace pressure plates without upsetting the balance. I wish I had balanced my flywheel and pressure plate when I had the transmission out. Make sure your pilot bearing (or bushing) is good. Edited May 20, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted May 21, 2023 Author Share Posted May 21, 2023 hi john... yes flywheel will be d!one separately and then with pressure plate attached.... and marked for reassembly..... I'm not sure if this flywheel has timing marks on it as I have always used balancer marks for tune up... but I will check when it comes back... if it does I will be sure to mount with both aligned ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted June 19, 2023 Author Share Posted June 19, 2023 clutch and flywheel back and installed... all vibration gone. happy dance inserted here.!! flywheel had some weight reduction.. clutch had some previous weight reduction holes weld filled and light grinding where needed for weight reduction. no pictures, just wanted to get it in and running... the transmission.. partial dismantling to replace 2 seals and 3 gaskets.. Found rear welsh plug not fully seated. Hammer set to bottom with proper size socket. This minor overlook on someones part kept tailcone casting from sitting flush to transmission case, causing a leak. All good so far... 70 miles no leaks as of Sunday night... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted June 19, 2023 Author Share Posted June 19, 2023 bloo, no visible timing marks on flywheel so I assume they discontinued this prior to 53-54. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW4X4 Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 On 5/20/2023 at 6:56 PM, Bloo said: A 6 cylinder crank should have been balanced to itself. There should be no such issues as the "external balance" found on some American V8s. I realize the later cars have the timing marks on front, in fact I added that feature to my 36, but are the flywheel marks still present on the 53? If so that might be a way to align it the way the factory probably did. In theory it should make no difference though. As for the clutch, I suspect Pontiac may have balanced the pressure plate and flywheel together. That is insanity if true, but on the 36 there were obvious factory paint marks aligning the pressure plate to the flywheel. Hmmm..... The marks were not lined up when I took it apart, but they are now. It's not bad, but I still am not convinced the flywheel and pressure plate are balanced as good as they could be. Make sure the flywheel gets balanced separately first, and then that they only take metal from the pressure plate when balancing the pressure plate. Otherwise you won't be able to replace pressure plates without upsetting the balance. I wish I had balanced my flywheel and pressure plate when I had the transmission out. Make sure your pilot bearing (or bushing) is good. Anyone know how to balance a flywheel? OR is this something a shop has to do with some expensive machines? I ask this because I am having a drive line vibration problem with a viscous coupling that needs balancing some how? ERIC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 You really need a balancing machine. If you could support a flywheel flat like a pizza absolutely perfectly centered on a tall pointy cone shaped thing with a sharp point, You could do it like bubble balancing a tire, by stacking weights here and there until it was perfectly level. Then you would remove weight from the opposite side and try again until it settles out perfectly level. It wouldn't be a flawless method, but it might get you close, and it might point out existing balance problems. I imagine that is how it was done to rough cast stuff before electronic balancing, if it was done at all. Another thing I have heard of is to just make the parts with every surface machined with respect to center, so it theoretically cannot be out of balance. But yeah, for spinning parts you really need a machine. I wouldn't even know where to begin with a viscous coupling if I had the machine. That really is a question for some guy who balances things for a living. Won't the internal parts change location in relation to each other? Pistons and rods on the other hand are pretty easy. You can do those with a scale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted June 19, 2023 Author Share Posted June 19, 2023 one more thing... when re installing the flywheel with no dowel pin hole to align with crankshaft dowel pin location (remember no pin in crank) I experienced this little snafu..!!... lift flywheel to crankshaft while under car on a roller. (I have no lift, just floor ramps). Install top bolt to keep it from falling on my face...!! Install rest of bolts only to find 2 will not start..😔 ... Remove all bolts, rotate one hole clockwise, repeat...! You guessed it... still not matching..😏.... On the 6th attempt, success..🤗... this is my life... (also why I don't play the lottery!).... ha.. soooo.. if you're ever removing a flywheel... be sure to mark it first !!! I'm old, bad shoulders, bad back, bad knees.... hate doing things twice, or six times.....😆🤫😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted June 19, 2023 Author Share Posted June 19, 2023 but, I'd do it all again... that's who/what we are. !!! car nuts..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted June 19, 2023 Author Share Posted June 19, 2023 eric... used my local napa store. they have a full machine shop.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW4X4 Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 3 hours ago, john hess said: eric... used my local napa store. they have a full machine shop.... Hi John, Good to hear from you..... As for NAPA, and other "good" auto parts here in Pgh. they all left town back in the 80's. NO auto parts here in Pgh. does real machining work. There's a few with a brake lathe, or will cut a flywheel. There's only a few full machine shops left around here, and they are the worst, over price rip off places in the country. I had to go to Ohio to get anything done in a timely manor, and drove to Indiana, several times, for more high precision custom machine work, on some Italian racing engines I rebuilt. If you want automotive machine work in Pgh. forget it..... That said there are a few good machine shops around here that will build new to print, but that's another story. ERIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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