Help ID year and model of 1930s Bentley at 1967 Vintage Car Rally-14

[kcmadr]

I need help with identifying some additional info about this 1930s Bentley please.
What I know so far is that it is a 1930s Bentley, and that is about it. The placard says 1935, but sometimes they are incorrect. I've been looking at details like the landau bar (EDIT: on second look I would say it does not have landau bars), the upper corners of the windscreen, the specific profile of the front bodywork, the door hinges, and so on. The shadow leads me to believe it has a very short occupant compartment compared to the length. I can't tell if it's convertible or not.

Date of photo : 1967

Location : Johannesburg, South Africa

Year : 1930s ?

Make : Bentley

Model & trim : ?

Edited May 2, 2023 by kcmadr
Adding details. (see edit history)

[viv w]

Wayne Kennerley is writing a book on Bentley and Rolls Royce cars in southern Africa, if you contact him thru his website classiccarsinrhodesia.co.za I'm sure he will tell you all about this car and any other RR and Bentley cars on this tour.

[nzcarnerd]

Unless there is specific information on the coachbuilder it is very hard to accurately date that sort of stuff. Unlike more mundane cars there were no specific model years. If you can find the chassis number then this one will help.   Chassis Numbers Booklet (rroc.org.au)

[nzcarnerd]

Tried to find some info about the plates but the only thing this page confirmed was the Bentley has a Johannesburg plate.

 

Historical vehicle registration plates of South Africa - Wikipedia

 

[alsancle]

It is a mid to late 1930s 3.5 or 4.5 Bentley.  Without seeing a side view it would be very hard to identify the coachbuilder.

[Gunsmoke]

This 1935 Bentley with body by Freestone and Web was sold at auction in 2010, one of only 3 such cars bodied by F&W, appears very close in details to OP. Apparently the radiator ornament was a "winged B". 

[nzcarnerd]

4 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

This 1935 Bentley with body by Freestone and Web was sold at auction in 2010, one of only 3 such cars bodied by F&W, appears very close in details to OP. Apparently the radiator ornament was a "winged B". 

Quite different front fenders on this one.

[Gunsmoke]

NZ said "Quite different front fenders on this one". I think the raised bead down center with park light was likely an F&W signature, and remember, every car was a custom job, so likely no 2 alike in all aspects. Note center driving light and twin pancake horns, and windscreen detail. OP photo is from a very low front angle, and unlikely showing a rear window opening, same bumper except OP has accessory thingies. 

[edinmass]

I hate to post this…….but if it’s not a W. O. Bentley it’s not really a Bentley. 🤬

Edited May 3, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[kcmadr]

30 minutes ago, edinmass said:

if it’s now a W. O. Bentley it’s not really a Bentley.

Do you mean to say "if it’s not a W. O. Bentley it’s not really a Bentley."?

[edinmass]

48 minutes ago, kcmadr said:

Do you mean to say "if it’s not a W. O. Bentley it’s not really a Bentley."?

Yes……old eyes…….and fat fingers……

[Gunsmoke]

Ed, really, talk about splitting hairs "but if it’s not a W. O. Bentley it’s not really a Bentley". 🤬

What's the message about? Did the Bentley name at some point become a counterfeit in some purists eyes?

[alsancle]

5 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Ed, really, talk about splitting hairs "but if it’s not a W. O. Bentley it’s not really a Bentley". 🤬

What's the message about? Did the Bentley name at some point become a counterfeit in some purists eyes?

 

What he is trying to say is that the 3.5-4.5 Bentley of the 1930s is really a Rolls Royce with Bentley badging.   They are well respected cars with some great styling and a strong following.   Not fair to compare them to the pre-1931 Bentley as those were a different animal.   I will also point out that all RR created prewar (small HP, Bentley and even PIII) are fantastic well engineered cars.

[edinmass]

When Rolls bought Bentley they went from a competition and hot rod to a stuffy old dowagers ride. Sort of like comparing a Model J to a Model T.

 

The legendary cars of the world…….

 

USA-Duesenberg

France- Bugatti

England-W.O.Bentley

Italy-Alfa

Germany-Mercedes

 

All of the above are the cars to own if you can afford it……..I can’t, so I fix them instead. Almost as good, and I don’t have two wright the check.

[8E45E]

4 minutes ago, edinmass said:

When Rolls bought Bentley they went from a competition and hot rod to a stuffy old dowagers ride. Sort of like comparing a Model J to a Model T.

Not since 1984 when the Bentley got a turbocharger to finally no longer make it 'stuffy old dowager's' ride for the less wealthy.  

 

Craig

[nzcarnerd]

24 minutes ago, edinmass said:

When Rolls bought Bentley they went from a competition and hot rod to a stuffy old dowagers ride. Sort of like comparing a Model J to a Model T.

 

The legendary cars of the world…….

 

USA-Duesenberg

France- Bugatti

England-W.O.Bentley

Italy-Alfa

Germany-Mercedes

 

All of the above are the cars to own if you can afford it……..I can’t, so I fix them instead. Almost as good, and I don’t have two wright the check.

That didn't stop plenty of buyers putting saloon bodies on the WO models when they were new, and the mods done to the 20/25 R-R made the 1930s Bentleys into quite rapid and desirable cars.

 

I have had nothing to do with 1930s Bentleys but by coincidence last week I was in the garage of a friend garage who has a 1924 3 litre boattail he has owned for about 60 years. He also has a 1935 3 1/3 litre Derby saloon which he has owned for nearly as long. His most recent purchase is this 1934 3 1/2 litre. I think purchased mainly because of its local history and its originality. He has also recently purchased a 1913 Panhard and an 1898 Benz, both because of their local history.

 

I just noticed the typo in his info sheet - 😉

 

Parked next to it is his PIII - body by Thrupp and Maberley - and his 1935 saloon.

 

 

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

When Rolls bought Bentley they went from a competition and hot rod to a stuffy old dowagers ride. Sort of like comparing a Model J to a Model T.

 

The legendary cars of the world…….

 

USA-Duesenberg

France- Bugatti

England-W.O.Bentley

Italy-Alfa

Germany-Mercedes

 

All of the above are the cars to own if you can afford it……..I can’t, so I fix them instead. Almost as good, and I don’t have two wright the check.

Interesting coincidence, the same owner also has a 1920s Voisin with a long local history which has been in unrestored condition for decades.

 

Seems the 6 cylinder sleeve valve engine was started for the first time yesterday - video here - Facebook

 

Currently in the Shop - Auto Restorations Ltd | Classic Car Restoration Specialists in Christchurch, New Zealand

 

1927 Avlons Voisin C11 Sulky - Auto Restorations Ltd | Classic Car Restoration Specialists in Christchurch, New Zealand

 

 

 

[Gunsmoke]

Well in regard to the "not really a Bentley" vs W. O. Bentley, I guess we apply the same to Oldsmobile after REO sold his rights, or maybe the Dodge after WPC purchased the company, or a great many "brands" that were bought out from the original company. As I said, purists can sometimes take things too far. Guess in future we will have to distinguish just when the particular Rolls was built (now owned by BMW), the Jaguar, The Fiat, Chrysler, now VW group has Audi, Bentley, Lambo, Porsche and others, Daimler owns Mercedes, and on and on and on.....While I suppose there is some cachet in having a car built by and named by the original company (whether it is better or worse than successor models), most proud owners I suspect have no idea (and don't care) just who owned the company when their car was first sold.

[kcmadr]

You guys are awesome.

So if I understand this correctly, the car in the original post is a 1936 Bentley-not-a-Bentley 3.5 Litre Saloon.

 

viv w, in one of my earlier topics about this rally, you had mentioned contacting Wayne Kennerley about these cars. I duly did that in early March and have used his information provided to me about the whole set of cars photographed at the rally, while at the same time augmenting it with knowledge from this forum.

 

I have settled on 1936 Bentley 3.5 Litre Saloon for this photo.

 

On 5/1/2023 at 11:18 PM, viv w said:

Wayne Kennerley is writing a book on Bentley and Rolls Royce cars in southern Africa, if you contact him thru his website classiccarsinrhodesia.co.za I'm sure he will tell you all about this car and any other RR and Bentley cars on this tour.

 

[Gunsmoke]

? How did you arrive at 1936?

[kcmadr]

4 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

? How did you arrive at 1936?

That is the year Wayne gave me. I’m not sure where he found that.

[Gunsmoke]

Glad you have pinned it down, after the ""if it’s not a W. O. Bentley it’s not really a Bentley." comment, I have to rethink if I want to go after this old girl, guess at 1936, she's too young for me!

[nzcarnerd]

9 hours ago, kcmadr said:

That is the year Wayne gave me. I’m not sure where he found that.

There were no actual model years for those, and there were frequent upgrades as production continued. Dating is sometimes based on when the car was first registered.

 

The whole business of dating old cars can be quite frustrating, as many cars were not actually built in their 'nominated' year date. It is still true today.