Early car ID help (Photos I took in museums in the past)

[Billy Kingsley]

I have three photos of really early cars that I cannot identify. I took all three photos in museums, the first two in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Museum in 2003. , the third in the Saratoga Automobile Museum sometime before 2011. I didn't take as good notes then as I do now- and I don't know what they are. Help, please.

 

Car #1

 

Car #2

 

Car #3

 

 

Thanks in advance!

[Billy Kingsley]

I think car #3 may be a Cleveland. My records show I've seen one, although I can't put my finger on what car it is. It seems to match the profile of the car shown in the ad on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_(automobile) 

 

It seems hard to believe I could have stumped the knowledge base on this forum, especially with cars in a well-known museum. 

[wayne sheldon]

Hey there Billy! I saw your posting late last night. I thought you would get better answers than I can give by now. I am not certain on any of my answers. 

Number one. I think it is an IHC. Probably not 1907, they had a shorter wheelbase. I would guess a 1908. I am not certain of it, because the body isn't exactly like any IHC I have personally seen. The motor looks like IHC, although air cooled two cylinder opposed engines were fairly common in the high wheel automobiles. The steering column and wheel, as well as the hand lever also look very much like IHC used. About 1910, IHC went to a more "automobile" looking front, instead of the horse carriage type leather dash.

 

Number two puzzles me. I know I have seen pictures of that car before. It looks a bit like Charles B King's 1895 creation. However it is not quite right. I cannot tell for sure if it is a gasoline engine or not. I suspect it is an early electric, probably late 1890s.

 

Number three? I am reaching a bit. The car next to it may be a clue. I can see part of the wheel, and the sign for the car next to it. I know the car next to it is an 1886 Benz Patent Motor-wagon. Unless you have traveled to Germany, it must be one of the many replicas built, most by Benz in Germany to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the 1886 original. The one and only original is in the Mercedes Benz Museum in Germany.

The large white touring car looks very much like a couple that I have seen photos of, of Mercedes/Benz automobiles from about 1904 (give or take a year). A couple of them have been driven in years past on the London to Brighton Run commemorating the repeal of the Red Flag laws in England. Participating automobiles must have been built before January of 1905. Early Mercedes/Benz automobiles are a bit confusing to being properly named. Some are technically a Mercedes, while others are technically a Benz. They became one soon after. I don't know enough one from the other to explain it, or speculate on which any one car would be. Some of the cars have remarkably different fenders, others have fenders like these.

It could make sense that the replica Benz Patent car be displayed next to a real early Mercedes/Benz.

 

So that is my offering. I hope it can help a bit.

By the way, I enjoy the photos you post here. And want to thank you for them.

[playswithbrass]

I think no 2 is the 1907 Kiblinger high wheeler. Their displays are locally produced cars, I think

[playswithbrass]

No I is the 1909 McIntyre autobuggy

[Billy Kingsley]

Thanks guys! Wayne, I'm not sure that the 1886 Benz replica being next to it is much of a giveaway...it's part of Saratoga's collection and was on permanent display for the first 10 or so years they were open. Last seen by me through the windows into their storage room circa 2012. 

 

I will compare the other to my other photos of IHCs. I've seen 4 of them, including two just this month. Or, I don't have to since it's been identified. 

 

By being a Kiblinger that means I've seen two of them! They may both have been in the same museum though, I don't remember without checking the photo. 

 

Thanks again!

[nzcarnerd]

Having an oval radiator badge I think the white touring car might be a circa 1904 Fiat.

[wayne sheldon]

Good. I was hoping by sticking my neck out, people that know these cars better would come along and correct my guesses!

[Ozstatman]

1907 Kiblinger Model D was in the ACD Museum when I visited in 2018.

 

[8E45E]

I got caught in the act photographing that one!!

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[8E45E]

When I was at the ACD Museum in 2002, the McIntyre car and light truck were side by side.

 

 

[8E45E]

Another McIntyre in that museum.

[Billy Kingsley]

Thank you so much. These days I photo document the signage but back then I didn't...of course I was only 3 months into having a camera when I visited the ACD museum.

[Ozstatman]

5 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

These days I photo document the signage 

Billy, That's what I try to do. If there's a sign next to the car or something on the windshield or a sticker or ????. I start with that and then take photos of the car. 

 

EDIT - In 2018 the Mcintyre truck was there but I didn't see the car.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Ozstatman (see edit history)

[Billy Kingsley]

I really, really wish I had done that sooner...I don't know exactly when I started but it's so helpful later...and it allows me to read the signs at my leisure, instead of standing around when I could be taking more pictures. 

[8E45E]

11 hours ago, Ozstatman said:

 If there's a sign next to the car or something on the windshield or a sticker or ????. I start with that and then take photos of the car. 

If there's a copy of that particular vehicle's Production Order, Broadcast Sheet, Marti Report, etc., with the car, I most definitely include taking a photo of it, as it provides proof of the subject vehicle's DNA.

 

Craig