52 Custom - Stuck exhaust valve!!

[Justin Pease]

Well, today was a sad day. I finally got my fuel pump in today and fired it up only to find it was running on what felt like 3 cylinders. Did a compression test and found that I had absolutely no compression on 6. Guessed at (read: hoped for) the culprit being a stuck valve.... My hunch was right - I pulled the covers off (broke a tab in the process but got lucky and was able to get it off anyway, yikes) and found a stuck lifted on #6 exhaust side.

 

Anyone got any ideas on how to get that unstuck? I've tried Break Away, applying torque between the spring coils, tried applying some torque between the spring and lifter but can't get anything in there... Anyone have any good ideas, short of removing the head? At the moment, it is soaking in a healthy amount of Marvel Mystery Oil which I poured down the spark plug hole aimed, as best I could, at the exhaust valve. I also rotated the engine so that Cyl 6 is on its intake stroke, so as to remove camshaft pressure from the bottom of that lifter in hopes it'll drop back down. If that doesn't help me free it, it'll be head removal time, at which point I'll try my best to get it to go back down without removing the engine altogether to replace the lifter. If I remove the head and find some other catastrophic problem, like a crack in the block, I'll have no choice but to replace the engine :(((((

 

Out of curiosity, how are the valves supposed to be lubricated? It looks like grease in there, but I can't tell if it's supposed to be greased or oil lubricated. If it's supposed to be oiled, I have a problem with my oil pump as well...

 

Hoping for good news here, but give it to me straight - anyone who can answer either of these questions would be my hero right now!

 

In the below photos, the stuck lifter is the one to the most left (cyl 6, exhaust).

Below is the front valve cover, cylinders 1, 2, 3, and 4.

This is the rear again - you can see that Cyl 6 looks like it's stuck on the exhaust stroke, but the piston moves as far as I can tell.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Justin Pease
I updated the main question of this post. (see edit history)

[Joe Cocuzza]

Has the car been sitting for some time?

When you rotate the engine does it turn and then stop when it gets to that #6 valve or can you keep turning it? You don't want to force anything if it stops turning. That can cause damage. You may have a stuck valve, too. Be patient!!!!!

I see a lot of rust on that lifter and I know it's a tight fit in there but you might try to clean it up as best as you can with a wire brush or ????

Try mixing acetone and transmission fluid and soak that lifter by squirting the mixture directly on it. You probably won't get enough lubrication on it by pouring it from the top. 

From what I can see in the photos there is a lot of "gunk" in this engine. You need to clean up all that old gummed up residue before you try to restart the car. Also, I would drop the oil pan and clean it out along with the oil pump pick up screen. The pan probably has an inch or more of goo and the sump screen is probably clogged.

Also, there are "wells" that sit under the lifters (you can see the raised sides of them in the pics) and they more than likely are filled with the same goo. You need to clean those out, too. They are oil collection pools that lubricate the lifters. All of this goo and gunk is caused by carbon and dirt buildup inside the engine. Back in the day non-detergent oils were used and this was the result. The valves/lifters are oil lubricated.

If all else fails in your attempt to free up that valve/lifter then pulling the head is the next step.

 

Hope this helps.

Joe

[keithb7]

Justin here is another one you should watch. In this video I talk about the sludge around the valves you are seeing. You'll also see that the spark plug hole is over the intake valve. It can be challenging to get oil over to the exhaust valve stem area.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Justin Pease]

11 hours ago, Joe Cocuzza said:

Has the car been sitting for some time?

When you rotate the engine does it turn and then stop when it gets to that #6 valve or can you keep turning it? You don't want to force anything if it stops turning. That can cause damage. You may have a stuck valve, too. Be patient!!!!!

I see a lot of rust on that lifter and I know it's a tight fit in there but you might try to clean it up as best as you can with a wire brush or ????

Try mixing acetone and transmission fluid and soak that lifter by squirting the mixture directly on it. You probably won't get enough lubrication on it by pouring it from the top. 

From what I can see in the photos there is a lot of "gunk" in this engine. You need to clean up all that old gummed up residue before you try to restart the car. Also, I would drop the oil pan and clean it out along with the oil pump pick up screen. The pan probably has an inch or more of goo and the sump screen is probably clogged.

Also, there are "wells" that sit under the lifters (you can see the raised sides of them in the pics) and they more than likely are filled with the same goo. You need to clean those out, too. They are oil collection pools that lubricate the lifters. All of this goo and gunk is caused by carbon and dirt buildup inside the engine. Back in the day non-detergent oils were used and this was the result. The valves/lifters are oil lubricated.

If all else fails in your attempt to free up that valve/lifter then pulling the head is the next step.

 

Hope this helps.

Joe

Yes, the car was sitting for some time - I was told when I bought it that it ran 2 months ago, but it can't have run well. It was last registered for road use in 2011. 

 

The engine does not have any issues turning - it turns more than freely. I almost guarantee the valve is stuck as well, because of the lack of compression entirely on that cylinder.

 

There is a lot of rust on that lifter, but I can't really get anything up there well - I'll try taking a small wire brush to it later today, but I actually have to use my phone to see that lifter well. The photos you are seeing here are what I took to see what I was in for. I can't actually hook my peepers on the lifter as the frame is in the way.

 

I have it currently soaking in Marvel Mystery Oil, which I believe is a similar mixture of acetone and ATF... I poured that both down the top and directly (as best I could) onto the offending lifter.

 

 I can't believe that this is supposed to be oil lubed... this looks like it hasn't seen fresh oil in years. (Edit: This makes sense thanks to Keith's video.) I've turned the car over a number of times (to get the valves to move, trying to see if I could unstick 6E) with the ignition and saw no oil move through there... would that be a problem, or should there only be oil movement when the engine is actually running? (The oil sump screen might well be clogged, which might explain this).

 

I noticed the wells - they are totally filled with gunk.

 

In terms of oil, Keith's video does a fantastic job explaining the use of detergents - since I will be cleaning all of this up, I might as well start running a detergent oil in the car (assuming I can save this engine) as it will prevent this buildup in the future. It would seem, though, that the sludge buildup in the valves is normal, though perhaps maybe not at this level. I'll go pick myself up about 42,852 cans of brake and parts cleaner and spray like my life depends on it.

 

Fingers crossed 100x over, I can get that lifter to free today with MMO. But you're right, I should drop the oil pan - if I can get the valve unstuck, I will do that today. If I can't, I will pull the head first and see if there are other glaring issues that would warrant engine replacement. Can anyone provide me with the head bolt order and torque for if I have to do that? My shop manual doesn't show up until Saturday. 

 

10 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Justin here is another one you should watch. In this video I talk about the sludge around the valves you are seeing. You'll also see that the spark plug hole is over the intake valve. It can be challenging to get oil over to the exhaust valve stem area.

 

Keith - thanks again, yet another incredible video filled with insight. Made me feel a little better about the amount of sludge going on in there - I'll do my best to clean that up either way. Does that same sludge build up in the transmission?? 

 

Thanks again for all this info!

Edited June 25, 2020 by Justin Pease (see edit history)

[keithb7]

Start by removing Left Fromt wheel. There should be a removable window in the fender well. Remove it. This will give you very good access to the valves. Scrape out whatever sludge you can. Scoop the pools out with your fingers.  Then buy a  jug of solvent and a larger solvent brush or two. Get a pump jug with a spray nozzle. You can pump it up yourself with air.  Then preasure spray solvent into the valve area.  Brush it lots. Spray and brush, spray and bush over and over. The sludge

 will all drip down into the oil pan.  When all clean remove oil pan. Repeat the process with the oil pan. Scrape. Spray. Brush.  Resist the temptation to media blast the oil pan. You’ll never get all the blast media out. It’ll end up in your clean oil later and ruin your engine. 
 

A few pics when I was doing this job recently:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[keithb7]

More details here:

 

 

[Justin Pease]

Thanks for the info Keith! I gave that lifter a shot today getting it unstuck, but no joy - still stuck hard. Next I'll be removing the head to try and get it to unstick - I don't want to go through all the work of cleaning this engine only to open it up and find a crack in a cylinder wall, though I don't expect to find anything of worry except in Cyl 6, which is the only cylinder I couldn't get a compression test on... the rest had pretty steady results of around 70-75, with one at 80.

 

I'll update this post again when I have the head off - still looking for the bolt removal order for those head bolts though, cuz I'm not trying to crack the head.

[The 55er]

There is no head bolt removal order,  just a head bolt tightening sequence. 

[Justin Pease]

18 minutes ago, The 55er said:

There is no head bolt removal order,  just a head bolt tightening sequence. 

OK, good to know. If you know what the tightening sequence is, I'd be interested to have it so that I have it ready for when I put the head back on!

[keithb7]

Justin your compression is low across all cylinders. (Unless you live at 10,000 feet above sea level) It may be time for a valve grind, clean up. With the head off now is the time to do it.  At the very least check valves for seal-ability. How?

 

Remove intake and exhaust manifolds. Put a cylinder at TDC.

Both valves are now closed. Pour a small amount of kerosene around the top of the valves. From the bottom side of the valve, look up, in through the exhaust and intake valve ports with a flash light. Do you see any kerosene dribbling down? If yes you have a leaky valve. Good sealed valves will not allow liquid to pass through.  Get a scissor type valve spring compressor tool. Remove valve. Inspect valve and seat for pitting. If ok,  not too bad, apply valve lapping compound. Twist valve and lap the seating areas.  Do this for a while. Clean up with kerosene. Then perform kerosene test again.  Keep doing this until valves will hold kerosene.  If valves are poor, you can buy a hand grinding tool to cut into and clean up the valve seats. Then buy new valves and lap them in. Worked great for me and got all cylinders up to 100 psi.

 

Only regret? I should have changed out the guides while I was in there. I did not. I was in a hurry to get the car back on the road. That was three years ago. The car has been running great since, however does pull oil into the cylinders through the guides at #1 and #2 cylinder.

 

Yes, you may be opening a can of worms. But, it's fun and rewarding.

 

Shown is a bad, pitted valve. Also a new valve that has been lapped in. Also you can see my valve seat cutting tool. I did this all by hand. No complaints!  I saved a ton of money.

 

 

 

 

[The 55er]

5 minutes ago, Justin Pease said:

OK, good to know. If you know what the tightening sequence is, I'd be interested to have it so that I have it ready for when I put the head back on!

Tighten like this:

[Justin Pease]

@keithb7: Thanks for the info - depending on how far I decide to go with this car, I may well end up doing that, but at the moment I'm not doing a full restore by any means, just something to drive on the weekends and to the occasional car show to put next to my dad's '47 Pontiac Torpedo (he's been in the forums here as well over some time, @justinsdad). The valves are almost certainly pitted by visual inspection, but I didn't do the kerosene trick. If it runs, I'm happy for now, unless of course it presents a major problem with burning a significant amount of oil, etc.

 

@The 55er: That photo was a godsend, saved it right to my phone and used it to tighten up the block and torque it down. Thank you loads!

 

To all: Today was a successful day. I removed the peripherals, drained the coolant, removed the head, and examined the offending valve. The valve was severely stuck up (not just entitled), and no amount of gentle movement was nearly enough to show improvement. I ended up getting a 16oz hammer and a block of wood, and hammered on the wood (so as not to metal-on-metal the valve like Lamb of God in your neighbor's house at 3am on your ears) to get movement on the valve. Started real gentle, but in order to move it, I ended up hitting it about as hard as one might hit a framing nail. Got the valve to seat back down and rotated the crankshaft until the valve reopened. It didn't close, so I reapplied my hammer trick. I continued this process for about 10 minutes, until I got to a point where the valve was opening with some resistance, and almost closing on its own. By this point, I had squirted a little more MMO right into the valve body itself, which seemed to have a good effect. At this point, all it took to push the valve down was two fingers. I continued to work the crankshaft and push that valve down when it was at its time, until finally, after about 20 minutes of consistent, gentle persuasion and patience, the valve moved all the way up and all the way down, on its own, and without resistance at the crank. Reassembled the head, peripherals, filled with coolant, and gave it a go.

 

I am a lucky man. It's not going to be near perfect, no, but this car isn't going for perfection - it's going for running condition and for an occasional weekend drive. It's not a particularly pretty car - I shined the dull, chipping paint with boiled linseed oil, which brought back a surprising amount of lustre. But it's not going to win anything at a car show, not by a long shot. So the only person it needs to impress is me, and after today, I am thoroughly impressed. So I'm marking this as a win...ish.

 

See, I say ish, because I didn't actually get the car to run tonight. I have an IQ of at least 5, maybe even 6, so I did the right thing and didn't take a photo of the spark plug wire configuration before I removed them all. Figured I would be able to figure it out after the fact - this was a problem for future Justin, at the time. Apparently, I'm now future Justin. I don't have the slightest idea where each plug should go - I know the firing order is 153624, and that 1 might perhaps be around 7 o'clock, and that the rotor turns clockwise. So in theory, if #1 is at 7 o'clock, It should go 1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4, clockwise around the distributor. But that's how it's set up now, and it.... it doesn't work.

 

Am I missing something glaringly obvious?? Or do I need to investigate further into my distributor for this? It did run before this, on 5 cylinders albeit, so I sincerely doubt that the distributor (which I didn't touch in the process of removing head peripherals) suddenly up and failed on me between 1400 and 2100 today.... Thanks for everyone's help so far, you've all really encouraged me and your forthcoming knowledge and assistance has been greatly, greatly appreciated. :))

Edited June 26, 2020 by Justin Pease (see edit history)

[Bloo]

With the plugs out, turn the engine over, clockwise only, until it is at TDC on the timing marks. Look at the rotor. #1 is either at the tip or the tail. There are only 2 possibilities. If you have it wrong it will intermittently backfire through the carb, and afterfire through the exhaust, will not start or run.

 

Alternatively, if you put your thumb over the #1 plug hole as you are bring it up to TDC with a wrench, and it blows coming up, you KNOW it is on the firing stroke, and you can just put the #1wire at the tip of the rotor.

 

Follow around the cap in the firing order to put the rest of the wiring on. Go the same direction the distributor turns.

 

 

 

[Justin Pease]

@Bloo you're a lifesaver. I followed your "thumb over #1 plug hole" trick and was able to get everything the way it should be, and after much turning over and argument, it fired up and ran very smoothly. Of course, I've now encountered another problem, but it ran, and sounded good, so I am pleased. 

 

I'm now having an issue with the carburetor I believe, but I'm going to start a new thread to track that one. Thanks for everyone's help in this thread!!

 

My next issue:

 

[Justin Pease]

Just a final update to everyone following this topic - following all the help I got here, and following some carb help and a small fire, I started the car for the first time a few days ago. It runs very smooth, without any big knocks or bumps. There is some scoring in the walls of cylinders 3 and 4, so it burns a large amount of oil - the engine will eventually have to come out to repair that damage. But it runs well, sounds good, and the transmission engages and moves the car! There is a new topic up regarding some questions/issues I'm having with the transmission - you can find that below if you so desire. (I create a new topic for each issue for the benefit of future people looking for the same answers to the same questions - as someone who often browses through 15-year-old forum posts for answers, it gets confusing when I'm in a thread about a carb and suddenly I'm reading about valve trouble and transmission issues, and then when I have trans issues I look for trans threads and not the carb thread that has the answers in it.)