placement of cars

[nearchoclatetown]

why are hpof and dpc cars segregated from the cars in regular classes? i for one, would like to see original and restored sitting side by side. since everyone was at hershey i'll use an example from there. the 1911? cadillac that was converted to a pickup should be sitting right beside the beautifully restored 1908? red and moroon cadillac. i think the spectater would get a better comparison. but the truck was religated to the back lot. how about the 1909 rambler, it survived for 90 years in original condition. doesn't it deserve to sit with simalar cars? it's been posted in others topics these cars aren't really judged so what's up?

[Restorer32]

I think I agree but maybe see confusion for the judges, possibly adjacent to the appropriate class but not intermingled?

[Restorer32]

But then again, not sure I want my '31 Packard 840 Roadster, upon which I have just lavished 3 years labor and untold buckets of money, parked beside an unrestored and "beat up" example for the same reason I don't park it next to anything at the mall...Would the chance of accidental damage increase if unrestored and restored cars were intermingled ? People do seem to take great care when around obvious "show" vehicles. Would the same attitude prevail in a mixed class? Don't get me wrong...the HPOF class was a stroke of brilliance on someone's part...but are we asking for problems?

[ronbarn]

While the vehicles in the HPOF and DPC classes are not "judged", they are looked at by the respective certification teams to assure that they qualify for their classes. Placing the vehicles in the same area of the class to which they would normally be associated would scatter them all over the show field and create a logistical nightmare for the certification teams, especially at a large meet such as Hershey.

The criteria for certification in these classes differs from the criteria for judging, thus it is not reasonable for the judging teams to make that determination.

As for the comment that they are placed in "the back lot", that is a matter of perspective. Some look at that location as the "front" lot with more interest and the judging classes as the "back lot". These are separate classes and should be shown together just as other classes are not intermingled.

[1937hd45]

Once a car is certified and recieves a HPOF plaque, could it be shown side by side in the judged class, as a DO NOT JUDGE? If so maybe the owner could pass on recieving another participation chip thus saving the cretification team searching for the car. Just a thought, I do like seeing the original unrestored cars side by side with a restored car, especially in the early brass classes.

[nearchoclatetown]

don't the name cards on the windshield give owner's name and class designation now? who would better judge whether a car qualifies for hpof or dpc than a judge of the class the car belongs in? why wouldn't you want your restored 31 packard sitting with an original? wouldn't it just show the quality of your restoration better? and how many cars in regular classes are marked "do not judge"? your reasoning for not wanting to park beside an original car for safety sake doesn't hold much merit.

[ronbarn]

Again, I will restate that the criteria for "judging" is different from the criteria for "certification" in these two classes. Thus the efforts of the two types of teams are different and should not be imposed on one team. If an owner feels strongly about being shown with the restred vehicles in whatever class, fine - use the old "do not judge" route. If enough people feel this way, we can just eliminate the HPOF and DPC classes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Restorer32]

Would love to show my Packard next to an unrestored axample but I'd worry about the public's reaction. Would they be as careful around less than perfect cars as they tend to be around restored ones. As a judge I see confusion reigning if such a system is instituted...what we don't need is more confusion...maybe arrange the hpof class chronologically ?

[Guest]

And how would you know that there was going to be another car like yours, restored or HPOF, at any given meet. Sounds like a way to screw things up royally. I'm with ronbarn on this one.

JEB

[Steve Moskowitz]

Devil's advocate. I understand the problems's associated with moving these cars into the regular classes. I also strongly believe in the HPOF class. However, if a club's purpose is to serve their members, just maybe the original post has SOME merit to at least discuss.

Say I own a 1906 Zipmobile and am a fan of brass-era cars, it might be that I enjoy spending the day on a show field surrounded by cars of my era and people that have the same interest. If my Zip is surrounded by 60's and 70's cars it might make the day less enjoyable. I have experienced this before and as an "exhibitor" it makes for a somewhat lousy day.

I also understand that sending a team all over the showfield looking to certify cars from all the classes could be a logistical problem and a time problem although I do not think there are that many HPOF's at most meets.

From the spectator's standpoint it might be great to see a original '57 Chevy next to a show car. It could be a great educational tool as the examples sit side by side. However, I also see that having a grouping of unrestored cars has a value to the public as well.

Great case of fence sitting, huh? I just think that the post has merit for thought. In those instances at shows I go to, I would much rather my Zip be parked next to a beautiful restored one than next to a Mustang. I wonder how those that actually are in the class feel.

Most important, never get rid of the class for any reason! It was a great idea!

[nearchoclatetown]

to qualify a few points of my original post, i've never had a car judged in aaca. i also don't really know what the judges are looking for in the hpof and dpc class. i also think these 2 classes were needed a long time ago. not everyone wants to or can restore their car. there are many people who want to be involved but not have their car judged. just walk around at hershey and look at how many cars have "do not judge" on their windshield. wouldn't it be possible for the regular class judges to judge hpof and dpc along with the other cars? antique tractors, corvettes and antique motorcycles all respect the originals just as much as the restored. i understand that an original, like the 09 rambler could not compete realistically against a perfectly restored one. but why shouldn't it be able to sit with and be compared to the other similar cars instead of the mustangs and hornets.

[1937hd45]

Oldscarnut, I agree with what you are saying, and would like to clarify what I said earlier. I was under the impression that once you entered a car in HPOF and were accepted you were given your dash plaque. This was to show the world that there were enough features on your vehicle to be considered worth saving as is forever. I was also lead to believe that there is a record on file with AACA of all these cars, that would allow restorers to see whatever original features that needed documentation. Once you have a HPOF plaque, why couldn't you show it with a judged class and enter it as a "Do Not Judge" vehicle? If the HPOF owners were given this option I wonder where they would ask to be parked?

[Guest]

1937HD45. I believe that can be done now. Just sign up for Do Not Judge and you will be put there. I dont think that because a car is certified HPOF that it must ALWAYS be exhibited there. I dont know about having it judged but Do Not Judge should be OK.

Is there really such a record of certified HPOF cars at HQ. That may have been the original plan but I wonder if it has been carried out. I seriously doubt that such a record exists. Too bad if it doesnt.

[Steve Moskowitz]

I am sure a HPOF car could enter a meet in a class as NON-JUDGED, as nothing would stop them. The only difference would be if the tab for their plaque was important to them, they would not get it under the current rules.

1937 please be careful about agreeing with me...could get you in trouble. Besides I am not sure what is really right in this situation, just think it is an interesting topic for AACA to at least discuss. I have always been concerned when clubs get to the point that they "sometimnes" forget they are there for the members. PLEASE, NOT SAYING ANYONE IS DOING IT THIS TIME! Just expressing another point of view

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

I don't know for sure, but it is my understanding that HPOF vehicles have to be looked over (recertified?) at each meet they enter. I could be wrong but how else could AACA be sure that a vehicle has not had its original features tinkered with since its original certification? Just a thought...

[ronbarn]

Each time a vehicle is entered in these classes the certification team does indeed look at the vehicle to determine continued eligibility to retain the initial certification. I agree that this has been an interesting discussion. I will take this opportunity to assure you that the criteria and "rules" for these classes was definitely not arbitrary or hastily devised and it was done with considerable input from participating members of our club. Ideas such as the ones expressed in this thread, and many others were carefully evaluated to arrive at the current format. We believe that this has been a welcomed addition to the AACA classifications guides and the amount of participation in the classes indicates that we did something right.

Unfortunately, in spite of the original planning and thoughtful development of the HPOF class, at least one thing fell through the cracks with implementation. The intent was to establish a file of certified vehicles at the AACA Library and Research Center. The would enable a member to go to that file to determine original features for specific vehicles to help with restorations and documentation. The concept was that a member could go to that file, identify the owner of a certain vehicle with specified original features, contact that owner and look at the vehicle and document the items in question. We even established a program where certificates (and photos) could be approved by the VP Class Judging and VP Technical Matters and used in lieu of factory documentation. We recognized that some factory procedures which were implemented did not get adequately documented by the manufacturer. For example factory photos (mostly of prototypes) may show use of one type of door handle, but actual production used a different handle and original cars could be used to verify this discrepancy. Implementation of this procedure proved to be much more difficult than anticipated. Hopefully, someday we will solve that problem.

OK, I've strayed from the initial post. I understand the concern as expressed, but honestly believe that the integration of the HPOF and DPC vehicles into the classes where they would otherwise be assigned, would be counterproductive to the intent of these classes.

[nearchoclatetown]

thank you ronbarn for your explanation. you didn't stray from the original post at all. you actually hit on where i was headed. without trying to tramp on anyone's toes, i said before some people don't want to or can't restore their car. well, i also believe there are a lot of cars that shouldn't be restored. like the saying goes they only have original paint one time. some of the cars are restored to a point it's hard to imagine what they really looked like when they were built. things that are taken for granted as 'knowns' are not always true. i remember being told of a oneowner model a ford having points deducted because henry never built them the way this one was. there are things you can learn from an original car you can't find in books. in my small exposure to collector cars i've owned three that the books claim couldn't be correct. i love seeing the restored cars, but i think the hpof and dpc cars are just as important. what better way to look at a restoration then sitting beside the real deal? and besides, the giant giant sign is in the front of the building so i'd say the hpof and dpc cars were on the back lot. after all they were down by the sewer plant. i'm not trying to move a mountain, this is just my opinion.