Spicer "U" joint maint / repair ?

[FLYER15015]

Well , here we go again begging for information.

This time it is the "U" joints on the old '31 Chrysler.

Both are covered by a half bell that is spring loaded, and both are bolted to the Tx and diff with a flange .

The 7/16" bolts are so close to the bell that one has to use an open end wrench, as a there is no room for a box wrench. What a wonderful idea ??????

Page 77 of the '31 "Instruction Manual" shows a cross section of both joints and lists item #5 and # 15 as U JOINT CROSS BUSHINGS. No needle rollers yet huh ?

It also shows a zerk on each end and a pretty large void in the bell ends.

Certainly they did not fill the whole thing with grease, just to lube the bushings, or did they ?

That's my question, how to get lube to the bushings, and how to get both ends off without rounding the bolts with just an open end wrench.

 

Anybody been here before ????

 

Mike in Colorado

[ArticiferTom]

A pic would help a lot . My '31 has what you seem to describe . They are Detroit universals . When you remove the bolts , pull shaft to- ward opposite , it is spring loaded . On assemble only a few tablespoons of grease are added . Will get exact if you need . And bell end is covered with a leather boot to keep out dust and dirt .

   Did you try thin wall socket on bolts ? I could not get open to work either .

Edited March 30, 2019 by ArticiferTom
Added (see edit history)

[FLYER15015]

here you go Tom,

I do not have a leather boot on either end. Just the spring loaded "bell".

Tomorrow I will try a "tubing wrench".  I have thin walled sockets and cannot get them on square.

I don't want to bugger them up. They do have "Spicer" stamped on the bell.

Mike

Edited March 30, 2019 by FLYER15015 (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

I can't make out the picture very well, but are they "ball and trunnion" universals? The originals on our Dodge Brothers are Detroit, of this type. Our size went through the '30s, fitting many models and makes with the same universal. Yours are probably bigger for a more powerful, heavier car. Here is what my manual says about them:

The balls slid along a grove in the "bell" housing with no bearings. Later ones had needle rollers inside the balls. Are yours anything like these?

 

I see in Chiltons 1931 CG had Detroit universals for some of the year (front and rear joints the same and used on 28 models in the list) and some had Spicer joints. In the latter case, the front joint was used on 45 models, the rear was unique to the 1931 CG. Some of the components in that rear joint, however, were widely used.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[FLYER15015]

Thanks Spinny, but no cigar.

I am very familiar with "Ball and Trunnion" type joints having grown up in the Ag business. Dad collected old tractors.

Mine are definitely Spicer "cross" type joints, and the illustration on page 77 of the '31 Imperial Instruction book, specifically lists items #5 and 30 as "bushings".

Today you would find needle roller bearings in these spots.

The manual does not specify how to get any kind of lube to these bushings, but there are zerks front and rear.

 

Mike in Colorado

[Spinneyhill]

6 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

Thanks Spinny, but no cigar.

Oh, well, sorry about that. I'll try again, then.

 

I have a 1947 MoToR's Manual, which shows the 1935 type used in Chrysler, De Soto etc. before they went to Detroit universals in 1936. These ones have a grease fitting hole in the yoke in which the drive shaft spline runs, but nothing in the universal cross. This is only to lubricate the spline; there is a "Welch" plug on the end to keep the grease in. They also have needle bearings in place of the bushes you mention. The centre of the outer ends of the cross is a "Reservoir" and there is a grease seal on the inner end of the needle bearings. So the only lubricant in there must be packed in when they are assembled. There appears to be no cross drilled holes or whatever to distribute lubricant to the bearings from any central fitting.

 

So my guess is that you pack it all with lubricant (maybe a NLGI 0 grease?), fill the reservoir with the same stuff and assemble. During running, centrifugal force pushes lubricant out the reservoir into the cap and it can then work its way into the bushes or needle bearings. This would need repacking at intervals.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

That probably doesn't cut it either, so here is my third attempt! This is from Dyke's 1937. It may help. It looks to me like the thing is swimming in a pool of semi-fluid grease.

   Do I get the cigar yet, not that I want such a horrible thing! How about a chocolate mud cake instead?

 

On second thoughts, how about double chocolate mud cake? And make it a big one, so all the helpers here can have a piece.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

These universal joints are similar to those on front part of my propellor shaft (1931 Chevrolet torque tube type) connected to transmission. The various packings/seals (cork and felt in my case with the felt seal since replaced with a modern neoprene seal) in the "ball type housing" help prevent lubricant from exiting the assembly. In my case, the universal housing has its own filler tap, but also can get oil from the adjacent transmission case. Chevrolet recommended 600W oil, a product sold by most lubricant companies, it is not 600WT, but more the consistency of about 300WT oil. I bought a 5 gal pail from Esso/Exxon for about $90USD, it is labeled as "Cylinder Oil". Since U joint spins fast, oil level only needs to be sufficient to be makng contact with lower cycle . Too much oil will cause excessive leakage out past the various seals.

[Gunsmoke]

This is from my copy of the 1930 Chrysler 66 owners manual, PAGE 69, these models have Spicer type U joints like yours. 

"UNIVERSAL JOINTS AND PROPELLOR SHAFT

Universal joints are of the yoke and cross type and require no attention other than periodic lubrication every 2000 miles with special universal joint or fibre grease. Only one ounce is necessary , inasmuch as over lubrication will cause the grease to be thrown out past retainers".

Edited March 31, 2019 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[FLYER15015]

Yippee, Spinny gets a cookie, or I'll have to send him a "MoonPie".

The first picture is really close, but mine has no "Welsh " plug, (which I had to look up) .

Here in the colony's, we call that an expansion plug, and they are reserved for the water jacket.

BUT the picture shows the nuts and bolts that hold the prop shaft to the Tx and diff, where in the nuts are on the forward and aft ends respectfully. DUH ?

And the sheet metal bells are used to retain the bolt, as you tighten the nut. Think I'll use an open end spanner.

Since it is 22 F here and snowing, and my barn is not heated, I will put off pulling the shaft for now.

 

Think I'll stay inside and polish hub caps today.

 

Mike in Colorado

 

PS; I'll post pictures and wrap up this thread for those who follow at a later date.

 

[Spinneyhill]

The "Welch" plug, so labelled in the later 1935- Spicer UJ, was for a different system. They did not have the bell covering and the lubrication for the spline and cross-joint were separate. The Welch plug was to keep grease in the spline. In the one you have, similar to that shown in my 3rd attempt, the splines and joint run in the same heavy oil (or semi-fluid grease).

 

I agree, it should be an expansion plug. But it was called a Welch plug in the drawing, coz Mr Welch invented them. Like Zerks; we call them grease nipples. Mr Zerk invented one type, there were others.

[FLYER15015]

OH, just like Mr. Thomas J. Crapper.

I get it now................

 

Mike

[Guest]

1 hour ago, FLYER15015 said:

Here in the colony's, we call that an expansion plug, and they are reserved for the water jacket.

Expansion plugs and/or welch plugs have hundreds more applications than core plugs in water jackets.

[FLYER15015]

Tinindian,

You are right. I used one in the bypass valve, just below the thermostat, in my '40 Buick to cure the overheating issue, that is common to the big straight 8's

The standard fix is to tap one in and drill a 5/16'ths hole in the center. Lets the water out of the head instead of being overpowered by the water coming up out of the radiator.

 

Mike in snowy Colorado

[Taylormade]

I have these on my 32 Dodge Brothers DL.  I posted the disassembly process on my thread in the Dodge Brothers Forum.  I’ll post some pictures tomorrow.

[Taylormade]

Okay here are what I have on my 1932 Dodge Brothers DL sedan, made in January of 1931.

 

The joints as I found them on the car during disassembly.  At the rear of the driveshaft...

 

 

No problem getting those bolts out as they are easily accessible.  But, at the transmission...

 

 

A real pain!  To get to the nuts, you have to get in behind the parking brake drum after removing a two dirt shield panels.  Even then, getting a socket on those nuts is a nightmare.  I had to use a socket extension with a U-joint fixture to get them off.

Anyway, In both shots you can see the spring that holds the cup with the Spicer logo in place.  This shot isn't the greatest angle, but you get a better look at the spring now that it's cleaned up.  The spring is held in place by a lip on the shaft.  To get things apart, you have to pry the spring off the lip.  It's a bit of a chore, but with a little patience you can get it off.  I pried up one end and then worked it off the lip. 

 

 

There are two outer pieces to the unit,  a large half ball and the cup that rides on the ball.  Once you have the spring off, the cup will slide back off the shaft.  Then the ball will also slide off as long as all the attachment bolts are out of the unit.  At this point, you end up with this...

 

 

You can see the indented area on the shaft that held the spring in place.  Disassembly is pretty easy on the front U-joint, but the rear joint is part of the driveshaft, so you have to slide the ball and cup down the entire driveshaft to get them off,  I guess if this joint ever goes, you were expected to by a new driveshaft!

 

The pictured bearing was bad on my forward joint, but I was lucky to have a good spare.

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

The only real repair needed on my units, once I had them cleaned up, was to replace the cork seal on the cup.  My seal was worn out, brittle and dry.

 

 

I cut a strip of new cork from a sheet I had and inserted it in the lip of the cup.

 

 

Then I gave everything inside a good lube, slid the ball back on, slid the newly freshened cup back on and snapped the spring back in place.

 

 

And here is the unit back on the car.

 

 

As far as i can see, the only way to get lubricant in the joints is to take them apart - or at least take the spring and cup off to gain access to the inner workings.  I would certainly take them apart and clean everything and re-lube.

 

I hope this helped.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[FLYER15015]

Taylormade,

Thank you so much for the detailed info and pictures !!!!

In your internals post there is a picture showing the front flange with the bearings captured in a "U" shaped casting that is a part of the flange.

 

Guess what ? One of the ears is cracked wide open about 1/8" almost all the way thru. so the bearing has been wallowing around in there.

That is why I could rotate the drive shaft about 1/8 - 1/4" with my hand.

 

Many calls to shops in Denver and Colorado Springs yielded nobody who is familiar with this set up.

So.....Northern Colorado Driveline in Greeley, Colorado is now making a new drive shaft, with the proper flange on each end, and open "U" joints, and a slightly larger diameter tube.

Will be ready for pick up next Thursday.

 

Mike in Colorado

[Taylormade]

Yes, that’s what I would have done if I had not had the spare U-joint.  I got it on an extra transmission I was give by a DB owner when 

I helped rebuild his tranny.  I would rather be out driving with a new driveshaft instead of sitting around trying to repair an old broken one.

[FLYER15015]

I wanted to take the time here to thank all the folks that contributed to this thread, and kind of wrap things up for those who follow.

As I said previously, I did several days calling AND visiting several drive shaft shops in the Denver and Colorado Springs area to try and find someone to repair my old drive shaft.

All that was "no joy".

So.... I took Taylormade's advise and had a brand new one built by Northern Colorado Driveline in Greeley, Colorado

Total cost was $487.14 for a 58.25 inch shaft with the correct end plates machined just like the original and balanced.

I do not think the old one was balanced ,'cause we found no weights or drill holes in it.

Therefore the old one is for sale (58.25 long) OR I can cut the tube if you only want the ends.

The diff end is nice and tight, and the Tx end has a bit of play in it.

Make me an offer..........

 

Attached are pictures of both for your enjoyment.............

 

Tomorrow we put it in with new grade 8 bolts.

 

Thanks to all,

Mike in Colorado