DEF Tow Vehicles and a real dumb question

[Frantz]

Ford trucks ordered by municipalities should generally be speced with manual regeneration if they idle most of the time, which burns off the particulates (not DEF). Ford assumes the higher trim level trucks are used on the highway and this option isn't available above XLT I believe. Most trucks on the lot won't have this option, regardless of what fleet they're likely to go to. Gotta have a smart fleet manager to order them right and make sure they are cared for properly. I'm sure the other makers have it too, I just am only really familiar with the Ford setups. The highway driving is def what these trucks are built for. They probably like short drives even less than limited use.

As for mods... frankly today's diesels are plenty powerful factory. I don't think I'd want to mess with the factory system unless I was legit racing. All the big three today are over 900 ft/lbs Torque. Regardless of who is in office, it's really only a matter of time before the EPA starts fully enforcing the laws on the books. Spending money to make the trucks non-compliant would have limit gains for long term risk. Heck, the '79 truck I have is a good example. Back before it mattered the previous owner put in a '76 drivetrain and took out all emissions. Then regulations caught up to him and he couldn't get it inspected anymore. He pretty much gave it to me to save it from the crusher because it wasn't worth fixing right, but I put a farm tag on it with exempts me and lets me use it like a truck. When he did the swap, it wasn't a big deal. Just something to keep in mind for anyone considering an emissions delete. Again, the law is already on the book, it's just a matter of enforcing it. Not worth the risk IMO. 

 

[ccarney63]

On 1/5/2018 at 12:13 PM, John348 said:

This topic really affects all of us who use newer DEF generation tow vehicles, which I am sure has to be 15-20% of us on the forum. so I decided to post it here in general discussion 

 

I have 2013 Sierra that I use as a tow vehicle, has not been used since Hershey. Getting it ready to go to Florida after the February AACA Meeting and I wanted to take it for a ride. With near zero temps coming in the Northeast I topped of the fuel, the DEF and added some some diesel fuel anti-gel additive and then wanted to give it a ride before the incoming blizzard. Took 4 gallons of DEF and it holds 5. The last run for the truck was the return from Hershey. After I added the fuel and additive  I drove about 3 miles and I get a code scrolling across the dash board "SERVICE DIESEL EXHAUST SYSTEM NOW ...... SEE OWNERS MANUAL........ 98 MILES TO 65 MPH MAX

 

The truck is used only for towing, so it gets run maybe once every 3 or 4 months on average.    So as i added the DEF the other night I could not help to notice on the box specific storage instructions as to not store fluid in temperatures under 12 degrees and above 85 degrees. So what controls the tank temperature under the truck? What prevents it from getting too cold or to hot? I have only 70,000 miles on the truck ordered it new and had only 2.5 miles on it when I took delivery.  I have maintained this vehicle specific to the owners manual, nothing is neglected other than not getting driven! It is not a question of not using it more of an issue of no where to park it when I am on Long Island. 

 

Another issue I have is that on Long Island most dealers do not have qualified GM diesel mechanics, the borrow them from other dealers, so the only dealer I found is about 45 miles from my home, but at least they have some diesel guys. Unrelated but the Cadillac GMC Dealer near my home 5-6 miles away can't seem to fix anything. My CTS is has been there now for 3 weeks with a keyless entry problem. The Service Manager, very nice young man around 32 years old tells me "oh the electronics on these cars...blah blah blah" I stopped him at that point and told him " stop with that I have been hearing that crap before you were born, and everyone in your shop under 35 so they should all be on top of this, it is not something new like it was in the early 80's" I had another problem with my Sierra with the DEF last year and I asked him if he had a diesel tech in the shop and he  could not say no but was polite enough to say and wink at the same time "he is all backed up and it is going to take awhile before he can look it, you might want to call  So and so GMC they have a few guys in their shop who can help you much quicker then we can'" 

 

I know I can not be the only guy with a tow vehicle that uses DEF that sits a long period of time in adverse weather. From what I have read this is a rather common problem so.......

How come there is no additive?  

If there is an expiration of the fluid according to the owners manual how come there is no date anywhere on either the GM of the off make stuff?

 

I am pretty sure that the problem is temperature related pointing to the heaters in the system from what I have read and researched. One thing I have noticed that should be pointed out the fluid itself leave a chalky residue when it dries, which can't be good, the injector could be clogged I just don't know

 

On my way now to drop it off to the dealer......... 

 

There is a great You tube video of a guy fixing one but that is not happening.... 

 

Any of you guys had problems with your tow vehicles and DEF?

 

The problem is not temperature related. With my 2013 Denali I have had the problem in cold and hot temps and warm temps. It does not get that cold here (exception this year). I would get the same messages that you have noted. Each time I would have to take it to the dealer to have it fixed. No matter what they changed it would happen again. Sometimes in a week sometimes a month or two but it would happen again.  I was being $2000 to death I felt. I finally took it to a diesel mechanic and had the system modified so that I no longer had to use the DEF fluid and have been trouble free ever since of course.  My truck was not just a tow vehicle and was getting 40000 miles per year put on it. The truck was out of warranty and we do not have inspections in Arkansas so it was a no brainer for me to remove it. I have bought a 2016 Chevrolet since then with no issues but only 45K on the odometer to date and I bought the extended warranty to keep the costs down if the problem appears again. In summary I just could not afford to keep having it fixed so I never did figure out or get a good answer, seemed like the dealerships did not have a good grasp on the issue either but were willing to take my money time and time again and send me on my way. Its just a poor design and I'm hoping that they have got it under control in the later models. Good luck.

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 3:14 PM, John348 said:

 

 

The only way I would remotely even consider it if I was out of warranty.  I have a friend of mine who had a fairly new truck still under warranty and decided he needed to put a tuning box in it. Why, I thought it ran fine. any how. once he plugged this box into his truck the driver information system scrolled " ECM PROGRAM HAS BEEN VIOLATED" there was no other LED display permitted on the dash. He could not go to the dealer because they would void the warranty immediately, so he had to ask around to find a guy who could make the problem go away. That technician told him to toss that "box" in the trash and don't even think about it ever again. He told him to trade in the truck ASAP because  it is possible that GM could detect that the box was installed.  So he got rid of it.

 

 I have a good friend of mine who needs another truck, and he keeps bugging me to find out when I am going to trade mine in so he could buy it.  I still have another 18 months or 25,000 miles left on the extended GM warranty that I bought. The nice part is that the GM warranty is a simple transfer. I just don't want to sell anything to anyone that has a problem, it is not right.   

 

GM can tell if the truck has been chipped.  The ECM stores that information and it comes up when the computer is plugged into the vehicle for diagnostics.  I would guess that is true for all of the manufacturers.

 

Also, I agree with above that the new trucks are so good I would not bother changing them.  What you get in short term improved performance you will lose in long term durability.

[Robert Street]

Well put Larry

[Larry Schramm]

1 minute ago, Robert Street said:

Well put Larry

 

Thanks

[chistech]

I have been running diesel trucks for years before they were even turbo equipped. I currently own a 83’ Chevy M1009 restored into a civilian model and a 08’ GMC duramax equipped dually CC. I used to haul continuously with gooseneck trailers hauling livestock and have over 2 million miles combined on those rigs. Today’s emissions are a joke on Diesel engines as the particles can be wiped out of a muffler and put in the dirt of a house plant and watch it grow. Cars and ethanol are a much, much bigger polluter but diesel exhaust can be seen, car exhaust can’t, so people assume, and the government counts on them, believing that the diesel is a bigger polluter. First there was no emissions and diesels got great mileage but had minimal road speed. Then came turbos and more power with little mileage loss if any. This set up killed the HD pickup with a gas motor back in the late 80’s to mid 90’s. Gas engine Sales fell way off on any truck over a half ton model. The big three didn’t like it at all. No more 460’s or 454’s getting 6-8 mpg sucking up all that .60-.80cent gas. Instead they had diesels drinking 40 cent fuel and getting twice the mileage. I know, it’s the exact reason I made the switch. My 94 gmc 6.5 was a great truck with ok power and great economy. My 98 dodge had more power and even better economy but the rest of the truck fell apart. I rodeoed a lot back the and drove all models of the big three. Ford had the Navistar 7.3 and it was a great engine but I found the truck tiring to drive. We always got to rodeos beat from the road. I bought a 01’ duramax cc and couldn’t believe the difference and the ride of a 4wd, dual wheel, cc. 87k and an injector went out. Dealer didn’t know how to fix it and GM had the wrong torque setting in the computer for the injector causing all the injectors to crack their ceramic seals and leak when the mechanic reinstalled them. ( found this out months after I traded that truck) That truck gave me huge power and 17-19mpg towing a 24’ gooseneck loaded with 12k of livestock. 01’ had no emissions other than an egr. Because they couldn’t fix it, they took it in trade on a 03’ duramax cc which I ran for almost 230k without even replacing a light bulb. Great truck, more power, more emissions, and of course, only 15 mpg towing that same load. GM offered no interest in 05’ so I got the same exact truck but now with the upgraded LLY motor. Even more power, more emissions, and yup, even less mpg with that same load. I ended up going with an Edge mileage chip which got me to 12-15 mpg towing. 267k I blew the turbo so I bought a very low mileage 08 duramax with banks exhaust, banks fresh air intake, and Tuner. So now I have huge power, DPF with regen, and terrible towing mileage. A friend with a new Ford is getting 9 mpg with his 2wd so my 10mpg with 4wd I’ll take. So what it looks like to me is the big three have succeeded in getting back what they had before the diesels came out. They have consumers paying $8k more for a diesel option that’s not going to give you any better mileage than a gas motor , now have us paying more for the fuel (often the cost of mid to premium gas), and now they’ve thrown on the price of the DEF into the mix. Today, if your tow truck is an occasional user, stay away from diesel, plain and simple. Believe me, as a diesel lover, it’s hard for me to say it but my next truck will be gas. Wouldn’t you think if it was about the environment and saving natural resources that they’d want LESS fuel consumed per mile?

 

on the duramax DEF tank issue: GM has had some problems with the DEF tank heaters,them throwing a code, and putting the truck in limp mode. I suggest joining the “Diesel Page” forums and check out the duramax section. You’ll find your answers there 

[BrandoMiddleton]

Hi there, folks. Apologies for reviving the thread. Need your advice on cleaning the DPF. Can I clean it myself or it's better to go to the service?

[31nash880]

I do not know how to do it but, worked at gm and ford dealers and would see the diesel mechanics sit the trucks outside with the engine high revenue. A unit on the side of the chassie would glow red for 30 minutes or so. Said it was cleaning the unit. Not sure if this can be done at home. Be careful if you can. VERY HOT.

[Scooter Guy]

6 hours ago, BrandoMiddleton said:

Hi there, folks. Apologies for reviving the thread. Need your advice on cleaning the DPF. Can I clean it myself or it's better to go to the service?

Short answer is no...you cannot clean it yourself. It is "self cleaning" (for lack of a better term) during the normal course of operating the vehicle as part of the emissions / exhaust system. 

 

If you are having issues with your diesel truck that you know are DPF related, then take it in for service. There is virtually nothing you could do at home to fix or clean the unit yourself. 

[arcticbuicks]

I have had many brand new diesel one ton dually trucks here in Canada since 1998 both Dodge and GM,almost all trucks after 2013 are DEF. and being in months of -30 s degree weather in the winter there are a few problems without knowing some basics.The DEF system is also now on pretty much every new diesel including skid steer farm tractors etc as well,The system on Ford GM and Dodge is pretty much identical and i believe one company holds the patent.........there are a few things most ppl do not know for winter.....DEF freezes at around -7 to -12.......Do not have more than half a tank full in cold weather as the tank needs room for freeze expansion of fluid........most of the problems come from a full tank in -20 type weather .......the electric pump and heater that melts the iced fluid in the tank when you start the truck cold can be crushed if the tank is too full.....the tank heater will melt a little tiny bit of frozen DEF fluid in the area right by the pump to use and whole tank full is not required to melt for use right after starting truck.......also the DEF is corrosive so the fluid level gauge is also sonar [no moving level arm]........the heater in the tank is a flexible rubber covered element......also adding fluid in cold winter will freeze going down the filler tube and sometimes wont let you fill the tank.........short city runs are the problem in cold winter as the truck isnt running enough to have time to melt the DEF fluid for the exhaust to be able to use it causing the exhaust particulate filter to plug up a little more over time ........just knowing a few basics and the system works quite well ......and the exhaust i cant ever smell or see any black smoke.........the milage is not as good as with the system deleted or removed.....here in Canada we can get away with removing the system for about $2000 cost and get great milage but that is polluting.......I cannot remove mine being a one ton dually as i have to go through scales and have heavy safety inspection yearly and with the system removed they do not allow. DEF fluid is mainly urea.....and has short shelf life .....check the date code when buying [you will have to figure the date coding from internet as it is a code] and many find that the econo cheap stuff will cause problems.......running out of DEF fluid will create huge problems if you continue to drive and will lead to truck limp mode and then shut down needing a tow.

Last winter i did top up my DEF tank a little to much on new Dodge dually and was mild weather .......i then headed out 6 hours drive and the weather dropped to -41 degrees hwy driving ,and the tank is outside under the cab,the windchill on the tank must have been -198........anyways the on the way home the tank froze solid and crushed the pump and heater and sonar level gauge,did not split the tank though........then the system warning light came on which give you about 100 miles safe to drive time.......ignore that message and you will get another limp mode message and the truck will only go 15 miles and then shut down to save the super expensive parts that will be damaged.......I just made it home .......the parts were about $6000. to replace ......but i found near new ones from a truck a guy had deleted of the system he had.

 

you can change any parts at home yourself and even scan and erase codes and reset,some ppl find it difficult but are learning kind of like going from a rotary phone to a cell phone.....we all learned.there are a lot of aftermarket parts cheaper now too,but the exhaust system filter unit are very expensive and can usually get away with being cleaned once from what i have found ,and a good run on the hwy after failed parts changed can clean it up.....but not always if too damaged.

Edited April 6, 2023 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Trulyvintage]

DEF can go bad.

 

Test any DEF before you add it.

 

If your truck has sat for awhile

then you might pump the DEF

out and put new DEF in that

you have tested.

 

DEF Tester:

 

@ https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Tool-W16500-Professional-Tester/dp/B01DVAL4I2

 

 

Jim