Front license plate bracket

[Guest renwaltoys]

What are the AACA judging guidelines for front license plate brackets? Recently received a point deduction for not having a front bracket on our 1965 Corvette even though front license plates are not required on historic vehicles in New Jersey. Can anyone explain the judging guidelines on this? Thank you for your thoughts, Duke

Edited October 20, 2017 by renwaltoys
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[Frantz]

If there are holes where it should have been attached and a car that didn't have one from the factory didn't have the holes then it would be a missing part. Or if all cars came with it then that would be a part missing too. As a hyperbole, if a state doesn't require you to have the hood on your car it doesn't mean you can take it off without a deduction.

[ted sweet]

if car was delivered in a one plate state  the backet wouldn't have been there??

Edited October 20, 2017 by ted sweet (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

I can't speak for a 1965 car but here in NC, in the 80's, I bought cars and the front license plate bracket would be located in the trunk still wrapped in plastic. They were not typically attached to the car. I don't think they are included at all these days.  

[Frantz]

Quote

 I don't think they are included at all these days

From my Ford days (3 months ago) you could order a front bracket at no charge from the factory or buy one from the parts department after the fact. Some dealers don't bother including them on their orders if their state doesn't require it and they are not near a boarder with  a state that does. Other manufacturers may be different. But for example, on a new car the bracket gets the front bumper cover drilled and then the bracket attached. So in 25 years if someone simply removed the bracket there would be evidence the car came with it if not properly repaired. I can't speak for the the corvettes of the '60s, but if it was similar that could cause a deduction, though so long as they didn't ALL come with the bracket I would be more tempted to deduct on the condition of the bumper or sheet metal it was attached too.

It's also possible that there was a misunderstanding on this specific deduction. The judge who takes the deduction passes the info to the team captain who hands the scores into the chief judge who might be contacted by the op. There are several points of possible miscommunication or misunderstanding. We don't have all the info.

[bobg1951chevy]

If a vehicle came from the factory WITH a front license plate bracket, and the bracket is not on the car for judging, it is a missing part.

 

If the license plate was available as an OPTION , and for extra $$,   then no points should be deducted.

[Grimy]

Some of these judging rules have the judges picking the fly crap out of the pepper.  From the 1920s through the 1980s, at least in my experience, many cars came from the factory with boxed (detached, separate) front license plate brackets. As part of dealer prep, the front bracket was installed in states with two plates; in one-plate states. the brackets were usually tossed before the customer took delivery.  In newer cars, installation of a front bracket often required removal of a short rub strip on the bumper; in such cases, the rub strip was tossed.  

 

So if a car was purchased in a two-plate state but is now registered in a one-plate state, should the current owner be gigged if he does not have a "naked" bracket on the front?

 

Surely we can find more meaningful discriminators....I know I can. 

[bobg1951chevy]

44 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Some of these judging rules have the judges picking the fly crap out of the pepper.  From the 1920s through the 1980s, at least in my experience, many cars came from the factory with boxed (detached, separate) front license plate brackets. As part of dealer prep, the front bracket was installed in states with two plates; in one-plate states. the brackets were usually tossed before the customer took delivery.  In newer cars, installation of a front bracket often required removal of a short rub strip on the bumper; in such cases, the rub strip was tossed.  

 

So if a car was purchased in a two-plate state but is now registered in a one-plate state, should the current owner be gigged if he does not have a "naked" bracket on the front?

 

Surely we can find more meaningful discriminators....I know I can. 

In any case,   the front bracket is probably the last item to be considered.

[Grimy]

8 minutes ago, bobg1951chevy said:

In any case,   the front bracket is probably the last item to be considered

I certainly hope so, Bob, but from the intensity of this discussion, I wonder....

[bobg1951chevy]

16 minutes ago, Grimy said:

I certainly hope so, Bob, but from the intensity of this discussion, I wonder....

I would believe the intensity surfaces because of the "fly crap in the pepper" attitude of the judging process on that 1965 Corvette.

[Grimy]

I claim no knowledge of '65 Corvettes, but I would hope that car would be judged on how the car was delivered to the customer in a one-plate state.  For example, I could understand a deduction if the car was displayed with empty holes and no bracket where a rub strip would have been in a one-plate state.  But as you say, this should be the least of our worries--somewhere behind the cleanliness of the lowest half inch of the interior rear glass on a '55 Chevy...  :-)

[MCHinson]

Gentlemen,

 

When judging is conducted in AACA, from my personal experience, the judges do a good job of doing as they are instructed and use common sense. Nit picking has been specifically discouraged in all judges training that I have ever attended. If someone asks a question here, hopefully they are being given a factual answer based on the judging guidelines. Trying to answer a judging question in an online forum is difficult to do in a way that people can understand and not be misinformed. When questions are asked in an online format, you will typically find very precise attempt to explain things by the book. To think that AACA judging is properly represented by the comment,  "fly crap in the pepper attitude" is quite incorrect.

[Grimy]

19 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

To think that AACA judging is properly represented by the comment,  "fly crap in the pepper attitude" is quite incorrect.

Matt, I think you are reading far too much into my comment that you somewhat misquoted: I do not seek to indict the totality of the AACA judging standards.  As you note, there are guidelines which some judges interpret differently from other judges, as exemplified by some of the early comments in this thread. And CJE minimizes that tendency.

 

I just unsuccessfully looked in the garage for a document I set aside (apparently, I set it aside far too well): the AACA Judging Standards booklet I picked up at the 1969 Philadelphia annual meting.  The booklet measures about 3.5 x 6 inches and contains no more than 20 pages of text in that small format.  Yes, times have changed in almost 50 years, and AACA is still here and still thriving.

 

Please do not confuse disagreement with disloyalty.  I happen to strongly disagree with SOME of the judging standards of a single-marque club of which I was president for three years, but I still judge every year according to the standards about which my powers of persuasion have thus far proved inadequate.

[MCHinson]

8 hours ago, bobg1951chevy said:

I would believe the intensity surfaces because of the "fly crap in the pepper" attitude of the judging process on that 1965 Corvette.

 

 

Grimy,

 

I was not quoting you. This is the comment that resulted in that post.  

 

AACA judging is typically reasonable. There are human beings involved in it, so there will be occasional problems. In general, it follows common sense. The system works well. It is much more common for people to complain that the judges let too much go without deductions than it is for people to complain that the judges are being too picky about small items. Most of the people who complain about judging being too lenient have been around the club a long time. 

[Phillip Cole]

Renwaltoys, 

Since this has been your only post and you have not revisited it since Oct. 20, I'm assuming you have moved on.  But if you happen to come back on the forum, would you please post a picture of the front bumper area of your 65 Corvette.   Also, mainly to satisfy my curiosity, how did you find out you had received this deduction?

Thanks in advance.

Phillip

[bobg1951chevy]

5 hours ago, MCHinson said:

 

 

Grimy,

 

I was not quoting you. This is the comment that resulted in that post.  

 

AACA judging is typically reasonable. There are human beings involved in it, so there will be occasional problems. In general, it follows common sense. The system works well. It is much more common for people to complain that the judges let too much go without deductions than it is for people to complain that the judges are being too picky about small items. Most of the people who complain about judging being too lenient have been around the club a long time. 

 

I'm wanting to purchase an AACA Judging handbook, since I  want my car shown & judged in the 2018 season.

I'm told I can purchase this manual / handbook here, online or the AACA store, but all I see are shirts, emblems, license plate frames, etc.

Direction is appreciated.

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by bobg1951chevy
Punctuation (see edit history)

[Phillip Cole]

If you go to AACA.org and click on Publications, you will see a tab that says Judges Guidelines.  Click on that tab and download the 2017 Guidelines currently.  Steve M may tell us differently, but I doubt if you can get a 2018 before Philly in Feb.

Let me also recommend that you attend a Judging School.  Even if you never judge, it helps to know how the judging process works when restoring and showing.

[bobg1951chevy]

1 hour ago, Phillip Cole said:

If you go to AACA.org and click on Publications, you will see a tab that says Judges Guidelines.  Click on that tab and download the 2017 Guidelines currently.  Steve M may tell us differently, but I doubt if you can get a 2018 before Philly in Feb.

Let me also recommend that you attend a Judging School.  Even if you never judge, it helps to know how the judging process works when restoring and showing.

I did see the 124 pages, which could be downloaded.  I'm looking for the handbook or manual to carry with me.

[MCHinson]

This link will enable you to download the 2017 guidelines for free:

 

http://www.aaca.org/images/judge/2017_AACA_Judging_Guidelines.pdf

 

The 2018 guidelines should be available online after the Annual Meeting. As Phillip indicated, you can get a printed copy for free when attending a judging school. I personally would not waste the money to buy a printed copy of the current guidelines since the new ones will be available soon.

[MCHinson]

Bob,

 

You could also get a free printed copy of the 2017 guidlines in January by attending the NC Region Annual Meeting and attending the judging school. 

[bobg1951chevy]

3 hours ago, MCHinson said:

Bob,

 

You could also get a free printed copy of the 2017 guidlines in January by attending the NC Region Annual Meeting and attending the judging school. 

Matt, When and where is the NC region annual meeting ?

[MCHinson]

Burlington, January 19-20

 

http://ncregionaaca.com/region/images/pdf/2018annualmeet.pdf

[Frantz]

I don't think there is too much "gray" area in the judging manual, but I don't think that has lead to "Some of these judging rules have the judges picking the fly crap out of the pepper." You can do an engine swap, so long as you do it right. We don't check VINs. Same with the plate bracket. So long as there isn't evidence the car came with it, or if all of a specific model came with one, you'd be fine, and correct.