My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[JV Puleo]

I will try it...eventually. But this time, because the materials are so expensive, I'd feel more comfortable doing it in a manner I'm confident of. I really don't think my method will produce something that is weak...the top will be securely threaded into the body and the threads soldered to lock them up. The only way you'd be able to tell it's two pieces will be a very thin solder line around the outside edge, something I would hardly notice and I doubt anyone else will.

I always thread at the lowest possible speed as well, a habit I got into when learning how to do it. There are occasions when it would be advisable to go faster so I'll have to experiment with that as well.

[Luv2Wrench]

I think the "confidence" route is always the right route. 

 

I'm so thankful for my Hendey lathe that has the auto-stop feature and no need to mess with the half nut.  I'm fairly certain I couldn't handle blind internal threading any other way. I'd stop short a few times and then on next pass crash into the bottom.  Probably not worth the effort to rebuild your Hendey of course.  Maybe one day.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The problem with rehabilitating my Hendey is that it's such a nice machine that I want to do a really good job...maybe even scrape the bed etc. All of that could easily take up a year. (For those that wonder at this, these were very high quality machines and are far more demanding of precision work than cars are.)

 

I did locate some rod ends for the brake adjusters and ordered them but that means I'll have to wait to finish the job...again.

I started today by putting the big bushing in the saw to cut it in half. You'll notice I had to prop up the outer end. Saws like this (at least when they are 100 years old) don't cut perfectly straight and the bushing is too short to take up the entire vise. If I didn't prop the end up the weight of the saw would gradually push it down and the cut would be really crooked.

 

 

The actually came out more even than I'd expected.

 

 

While it was sawing I shortened the piece of bar I'd bought for the drive shaft.

 

 

And pressed it together. It's a fairly tight press...which is good. The bar will be pinned in place but not until I've been able to assemble the entire drive train with the gaskets etc...if it has to be shortened it's not a problem to press the ends off and take a little more off.

 

 

 

Then I went back to the lathe and faced off the ragged ends of the bushings. These are about 2-3/8" tall. I'm not certain how everything will fit together but I'm guessing that the finished length will be closer to 1-3/4"

 

[JV Puleo]

The parts I need for the brake adjuster were supposed to be delivered today. The building is closed on Saturday but they usually leave small packages in the mail box. They didn't this time so I was compelled to find something else to do. I decided to paint the rear end housing. One dirty job remains, cleaning out the axle tubes but my thinking is that the old grease and crud that will come out will contaminate the sandblasted surfaces. The paint I'm using, One-Shot sign paint (as recommended by Walt) takes a long time to dry but when it does it dries to a very tough, porcelain-like finish. If I clean the tubes out after it is painted I'll have to clean up the paint a bit but that should be much easier than cleaning the sand-blasted iron. I started with some thin aluminum washers to mask off the machined ring I'd made to repair the casting.

 

 

I used etching primer on the casting...

 

 

And painted the inside dark red...why red? It just seemed like the right color. (It's a lot more red in this photo than in real life.)

 

 

Then I flipped the housing over and did the bottom.

 

 

And turned it back to do the top. I'll wait until the paint has set up a bit before doing the area in the middle. It dries to the touch in about 24 hours but takes a good two weeks to really harden. It will probably a year before I put oil in this (and I'll be pleased if I do it so soon) so by then the paint will be really hard.

 

 

Another advantage to this method is that It's very easy to touch up. Of course, it was brush-painted originally but I doubt they took the care I have, using a 1" camel hair brush but the men who did this were probably very good at it. I don't know that my job is better than theirs would have been but it is likely just as good.

Edited February 18, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I had an odd day today, with very little I could work on but I had to be here all day waiting for a gentleman coming from Vienna (Austria) to pick up some books. I did quite a bit of straightening up but also finished painting the axle housing.

 

 

Then I wire brushed, primed and painted the truss rod...

 

 

And still looking for something to make progress on, I pulled the lining from one of the internal brake bands. I was going to do these myself but I've had an offer I can't refuse to get them done and it's one less skill I'll have to master. I suspect these are the original linings and I noticed that the solid copper rivets are not countersunk but have big flat heads. I don 't remember ever seeing that before.

 

 

I also forgot that tomorrow is a holiday so the parts I'm waiting for won't arrive...I'll have to think of something constructive to do.

[JV Puleo]

It looks as if I've made good use of the enforced down time waiting for materials has generated. I finished de-riveting the brake bands...a job that turned out to be both dirty and taking a lot longer than I'd anticipated. I might have three or four hours in removing all the solid copper rivets so I can see why the brake guy would rather get them this way. I'm also taking the easy way out here. My pal Mike West has offered to bead blast the bands and drop them off to a local place he uses. I guess I won't get to use the riveting tool I've been saving for about 40 years...at least for this job.

 

 

I have another problem as well. I'm now rapidly approaching having to dismantle the chassis. I've decided to do this before I finish the engine because I will have to lift the engine in and out several times and I won't be able to do that alone if it's assembled. As it is, it's a handful to manage. You can see the chassis in the right hand corner...I have to rearrange that end of the shop to get real working access to both sides and there is no extra space. This is something that will take planning and I may even enlist the aid of a friend to move a few things.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

Hello Joe,

 

We have progress. Here is a look at the 3D scan. It came out great! We spent quite a bit of time cleaning the scan up and getting the best possible alignment of the scanned data. next step is importing it into Solidworks and pulling the dimensions for the tapers. We might not work fast but we do get there eventually!

 

 

[JV Puleo]

6 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

...We might not work fast but we do get there eventually!

Which is exactly my way of doing things as well!

[JV Puleo]

I finally got the little bits I needed for the brake springs...these are actually female threaded eyes for hanging acoustical tile. I had a heck of a time finding something that would work and I don't think these are perfect but they should do the job.

 

 

I made all the parts over twice to get the dimensions right. They will get a lock nut on both sides of the turn buckel but I haven't got any LH thread 1/4-28 nuts as yet.

 

 

I did match the wire size and the diameter of the original spring. This spring does not open much. If it is slightly under tension when the brakes are fully relaxed it should be fine. The real advantage here is that I'll be able to take them on and off easily...and I'll have to do that multiple times in the course of fitting and assembling this.

[JV Puleo]

I'm still doing odd jobs while I wait for some materials. Today I finished the second brake spring adjuster. On all the ends, I put a drop of solder on the threads where they screw in...just to make them that much more secure.

 

 

I also assembled the one I made today in the brake bank, just to make sure everything fit.

 

 

Then I put the drain plug in the differential housing. In this case, it is the final assembly. I made a thick paper gasket and used old fashioned Indian Head gasket shellac on it...

 

 

As you can see, it protrudes into the housing less than a single thread. I also used blue medium strength Locktite on this as I can't be certain it will never have to come out.

 

 

Last up today was the cover. This is (or was) nowhere near flat. I don't know if that was original or if it warped somehow but as it was it would have been nearly impossible to seal. To do this I glued two pieces of 150 sandpaper to a piece of glass and simply "lapped" it.

 

 

You can see here how crooked it was...

 

 

After an hour or two of rubbing I have it close.

 

 

I'll get it completely done tomorrow but this was already a huge improvement.

 

[chistech]

Come on Joe, just fill the gap with Permatex Silicone like most mechanics do!😂

[JV Puleo]

Do you mean the stuff you use when JB Weld isn't available?

[chistech]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

Do you mean the stuff you use when JB Weld isn't available?

And when duct tape won’t stick!

[JV Puleo]

This hiatus in my schedule has allowed me to spend some time on a project I've been thinking about for a long time...making a honeycomb radiator. By this I mean the type with square or hexagonal tubes soldered on the ends. I've found a good deal of information in my period books but I still have some unanswered questions. First, when I do the calculations based on Heldt's 1912 design manual I get a figure so high for the cooling area that I must be doing something wrong. At the same time, I read in another period trade publication that cellular tube radiators are about twice as efficient as conventional finned tube radiators (which is what the car has now). Does anyone out there have a loose tube...or better yet, a clogged and otherwise useless core or piece of a core? I had some tubes years ago but I'll be damned if I can find them.

 

I don't really have to do this but having spent all sorts of time thinking about it I'm seriously temped to try it.

[chistech]

Joe,

I have a 31' Chevy honeycomb radiator that's not that bad but it does have a leak. Do you want it?

[JV Puleo]

By 31 I don't think they were still making the type I'm thinking of...at least not for relatively inexpensive cars. They look like a honeycomb and the term remained in use but they were made from strips of brass rather than from individual tubes. The tubes I had came from a RR radiator, about 1925. that I cut down 2". We had to remove the bottom tank and then several rows of tubes and solder the tank back on. I don't think you can do that with later radiators...

[playswithbrass]

Hi there here are a couple of pictures of some left over tubes from my radiator built. The core is 4 inches thick,I purchased it from England in the the 1990,s. The rad has wet tanks. I was going to buy brass tubing then cut and swedge the ends into the honey cone,until I calculated how much tubing is required. The core piece shown is 33 feet of tube it,adds up fast. Cheers pete

[JV Puleo]

Thanks! That's exactly what I had in mind.

You are right about the tubing...If I've calculated correctly, I need about 3300 tubes. Building a device to swedge the ends reasonably quickly is the biggest challenge though.

 

 

[playswithbrass]

I was thinking along the lines of a beer bottle capper that you would use when making home made beer,now they use plastic bottles with screw caps. I did a quick calculation if you make your core 3 inch wide tubing from Macmaster Carr will set you back about $ 1600. My issue was the cutting of all those pieces.  pete

[JV Puleo]

I confess that I'm negotiating for the tubing overseas...at this point India because I've had generally good luck dealing with suppliers in that country.

It's easy enough to swedge the end but in order to work the hexes on both ends have to be exactly parallel. That presents the problem in that both should be done at the same time. I'll look into that though...a reloading press is also a possibility. I'd have to make the dies but I can do that.

 

Can you measure the wall thickness of the tube? I was thinking of .03mm (.012).

Edited February 24, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[playswithbrass]

Measures .010 .  

[playswithbrass]

https://www.vintagecarradiatorcompany.co.uk/

this is I believe the same company I bought my core in 92

[JV Puleo]

£682 in 1992 was about $850 (US) I'd bet the price would be twice, if not three times that today.

 

I worked on the differential cover a bit today but I have two low spots that would take a lot of sanding to smooth out. So...I resorted to filling them. I dug out my Devcon aluminum putty but it is long past its shelf life and was solid so I actually resorted to using a bit of JB Weld...which I admit isn't bad as filler, much like Bondo, for rough castings or file marks. In this case it does nothing except provide a smooth surface for the gasket.

 

 

I also worked on my design for a swedging tool for the radiator tubes, starting with a piece of 3/4" square stock. I put this in a square collet...

 

 

And drilled a 3/8" hole...

 

 

The piece was 2-1/2" long and the idea was to broach it and then cut it in half so that the hex's were exactly in line with each other. A good enough plan but I've never tried to broach a hole that deep and it didn't work. The broach stuck and it was clear my 20-ton press wasn't going to force it through. I then spent two hours getting the broach out of the hole without damaging it but, while all this was going on, I thought of a much better way to do this.

 

The good news is that most of the materials I've been waiting for arrived so tomorrow I can finish the cover and get back to making parts for the rear axle.

Edited February 25, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[ipeeforward]

Hi Joe,

Have you seen this guy ? 

Obviously an advert for his company but some useful behind the scenes info.

John

[JV Puleo]

Yes. What he is making is the later "improved" honeycomb radiator. It's all confusing because the same term is used for two different types. The original form was made from individual tubes, usually swedged round, hexagon or square on the ends and soldered. It was an extremely expensive way of making a radiator and as soon as machines that could mimic it were developed, they replaced the original form for most cars. The original type continued to be made at least into the mid 20s but was only used on expensive cars. However, it's the original form that is not difficult to make provided you can come up with a way to make the tubes. The original patent was issued to Wilhelm Maybach in 1899 or 1900. It was used on the Mercedes cars and was often referred to as the "Mercedes Type"...at least until practically everyone copied it. It should be properly called a "cellular radiator" and many of the pre-1912 sources do refer to it as such.

Edited February 25, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

According to what Bob Chamberlain told me, during the war, his company were asked to produce a quantity of cartridge tube radiators for one model of military aircraft that were made here in Melbourne.   They made dies with which they cast the internal shape of the of the cartridge tubes in "woods metal".   This is an alloy which is peculiar in that it melts in hot water.   They made myriads of those internal shapes, with the expanded hexagonal ends;  and they coated them with copper of the specified wall thickness by electroplating.    ( Obviously after removing the copper from the end faces), they recovered the woods metal in a bath of very hot water.    Then the tubes with expanded hexagonal ends were assembled in frames with which they were dipped, one end at a time, first into soldering flux, and then into solder bath to the depth hexagonal ends.

Now it puzzled me that for those special duty aircraft engine radiators, why the military supply authorities did not go to Colonial Lamp and Radiator Company in almost central Melbourne.   They had always been able to make high quality radiators of any core type and shape, and when I first went there when I could make spare time un-connected to my course at University of Melbourne,  Les Taylor showed me some of the equipment and information for manufacture of Winchester cartridge tubes.    I suppose that during the War  Westinghouse may likely have been fully extended making high velocity discouragement equipment to deal with Japanese and Germans.

    Regards,   Ivan Saxton

[JV Puleo]

Thanks Ivan. I remember you mentioning this a few years ago and I even thought, briefly, about trying to do it but the technicalities of plating, especially since I've never done it (much less with the degree of precision required) quickly scuppered that idea. I've also heard this type of radiator referred to as a "cartridge core"...the brass tube has effectively the same wall thickness as a .30-06 or .303 cartridge. Supposedly (I have never seen this confirmed) at the end of WWI RR of America purchased cartridge making machines from the Springfield Armory (which was just down the street) and modified them to make radiator tubes.

 

[EDIT] In thinking about this, I don't believe Springfield made ammunition. During WWI ammunition was made by both private contractors and the Frankford Arsenal. However, there may be a grain of truth to the story as perhaps they bought machines through the good offices of the officers who commanded the armory. RR of America was organized just as Springfield was winding down from WWI and it is believed they took on many ex-armory employees.  The Springfield Armory had operated at the cutting edge of the new technology since the 1840s and was the first armory in the world to achieve complete interchangeability of parts. It isn't a coincidence that Henry Leland worked there during the Civil War. Armory trained workmen were exactly what RR needed.

Edited February 25, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Back to the hub caps...but first I finished the cover. The only low spot where there is any filler is in the lower left corner and it's pretty thin. On the upper right, it served to fill the file marks. It is now flat and smooth so when I cut gaskets I shouldn't have any leaks...that is, IF the rope seal around the curved portions work.

 

 

This piece of aluminum will be both the threading gauge for the hob cap bodies and the fixture I use to turn the OD.

 

 

Drilled and reamed to 1-1/2"...

 

 

And then turned down to 4-1/2". I'm doing it this way so that the OD will be perfectly concentric with the expanding arbor.

 

 

Then I put in the relief for the threads.

 

 

And threaded it 4-1/2 - 16. Sixteen TPI was the SAE (at the time ALAM) standard ultra fine thread for all pieces over 1-1/4" in diameter. As such most, if not all hub caps should have a 16TPI thread.

 

 

And, it fit the first time I tried it. I must be getting better this (or lucky).

 

 

Tomorrow I'll put the big chuck on and try to thread the bushings.

[JV Puleo]

This afternoon I put the big chuck on and indicated one of the bushings.

 

 

I took a light cut and got such a good finish on the inside that I decided to take my time and make all the cuts light. When boring like this the boring bar wants to deflect. By taking light cuts I'm putting minimal stress on it and since this piece of bushing cost something like $65 I don't want to make an error. I was aiming for a bore of 4.435...actually, I have two ways of calculating the bore, one gave me 4.435 and the other gave me 4.437. I also measured the inside of the good hub cap and got 4.445 but those threads are certainly worn.

 

 

I ended up with 4.434... .001 too small but that is hardly anything to worry about.

 

 

I'll set up the threading next but wait until tomorrow morning to do it...I want to be as alert as possible.

[JV Puleo]

Set up to thread the bushing...

 

 

It eventually became clear I'd bored the hole too small. That doesn't effect the thread but it makes it take a lot longer to do. I'm guessing that the actual size is not exactly 4-1/2" although that is the nominal size. In any case, it came out fine...

 

 

The second one shouldn't be such an ordeal as I now have firmer measurements to work from. I didn't trust the inside measurement of the cap to give me the minor diameter as it is probably quite worn but the threads in the bushing are sharp.

 

I did take a picture of the finished piece but the flash makes the threads virtually invisible.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I didn't get in today until 2PM...but still made a lot of progress.

The first thing was the real test of the bushing/hub cap...would it screw on to the hub? As you can see, it did although its tighter on one side than the other, probably due to slight deflection in the boring bar that holds the threading tool.

 

 

Then I put the other bushing in the lathe.

 

 

And bored it out to 4.435.

 

 

And started threading.

 

 

I got to within a few thousandths of the final size. The gauge starts but does not screw in smoothly. But, it was already 6PM and I decided to take the easy way out and leave the final cut or two for tomorrow morning. I don't want to mess it up at the last minute because I'm tired. I can't complain though...this second one has taken about 1/3 the time the first one did.

[JV Puleo]

Late yesterday these came it. They are rough castings for adjustable headlight forks. The Mitchell didn't come with headlights...you had to buy your own but it did have adjustable forks. The studs that hold them, and their nuts, are still there but I'd never been able to find a set of the forks...until last week when a fellow enthusiast gave me these. Thanks Paul!

 

 

After I'd opened that box I went back to the hub cap. Sure enough, it needed one more .003 cut and then 3 spring cuts for the gauge to thread in.

 

 

And tried it on the hub...

 

 

The thread itself is slightly tapered...it's fine at the front and tight  at the back. To correct that, I lapped the gauge into the back side of the hub cap.

 

 

Then, using the freshly lapped thread I put the cap and fixture back in the lathe to counterbore the front end. I'll take out the thread 1/2" deep so that when the cap screws on it extends that much past the threads. I'll finish this part as a "raised rib" and put 3 set screws in it to lock the cap to the hub. Years ago one of  the rear hubcaps on my 1910 REO was stolen at a car show. Because the REO had a live axle it didn't effect it's ability to drive but these caps are an important part of the mechanism...without them you can't drive the car so I'm not taking any chances.

 

 

The boring also puts a burr on the thread so now I had to go back and lap the threads from that side.

 

 

And again, try it on. It isn't apparent here but the cap now sits 1/2" beyond the threads.

 

 

All this was done by 3PM. I've gone as far as I can with the hub caps until I have both the "crosses" and the castings for the ends of the caps as all of these have to work together. To that end I started on the crosses with a disc of 4140HT, the same material I used for the axle I made.

 

 

I faced it off and then drilled and reamed a 1" hole. This eventually gets a 1-1/8" square hole so this is simply a means to hold it while I machine it. It will disappear when the square hole goes in.

 

[playswithbrass]

Joe I made a complete rad out of wood with inlet and outlets etc. so I knew what dimensions to build the rad to exactly. Them built the roller/former (pictured) to be able to produce the outer tank in one piece front to back,‘this means you have the front lock seam,outer tank and the hood rest all as one piece. Trial runs with sheet metal were a disaster,so the brass sheet was used,never say a 4x8 sheet of brass @ $350.00 disappear so quick,but we got our clearance’s and radius correct in order to make one piece perfectly

[playswithbrass]

Finished

[JV Puleo]

That's really fantastic...I haven't even begun to think about the tanks yet but at least, with a covering shell, I don't have anywhere near a bit a challenge as you did.

[JV Puleo]

Today I faced off, drilled and reamed the second axle cross. Then I broached a key way for a 1/4" key in each of them. This will make it impossible for the piece to slip on the holding fixture. This will be very important when I get to milling the tapers. The key way square should oriented with a corner in the square hole. This completely eliminate it in the finished piece.

 

 

The fixture itself is made from a piece of 1" keyed stock cut to 3-1/2"

 

 

With the end drilled and tapped 1/2-20

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

"drilled and tapped 1/2-20" - finally something I can relate to

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I'm not so sure Jeff...that planer and mill suggests you are gaining on me fast.

I mounted the first blank for the axle crosses on the fixture and slipped the key in. This was a good idea because these things are much harder than anything else I've ever tried to machine. I'm sure it would have slipped badly without the key.

 

 

Then put a big washer over the end, the 1/2-20 socket head cap screw and started turning. I practically never use carbide, and have only a few bits that came with other things but I found a lathe tool that I thought might work so I tried it. This material is "hot rolled" which means it has mill scale on the outside. Ideally, you try to make the first cut get under the scale since it's often very hard and will rapidly dull high speed steel. It worked better than I had a right to expect.

 

 

I had to go from 4.75 to 4.425. The deepest cut I could take was .010 since that was giving me a much better finish than I'd expected. In fact, it's almost as good as a ground finish, but you can see how hot the chips were...

 

 

Finished size...it came out .0005 under which is a deviation I can  live with.

 

 

And tried in the hub cap. This has to fit inside the minor diameter of the cap. I think the originals were about .025 smaller but I thought I'd try for a closer fit since I can always take more off if I have to.

 

 

Then I did the second one...and it also came out .0005 under.

 

 

I want these two pieces to have the identical thickness because that has a lot to do with the calculations for milling the tapers. One was .030 thicker so I took about .025 off in the lathe.

 

 

And then put both pieces on the surface grinder and ground them together. The thickness itself isn't as critical as the fact that they are the same.

 

 

I'd ordered these 1.25" thick...they came in close to 1.375 which is actually what I should have ordered. As it worked out, they finished up about .020 thicker than the original which is better than I deserve.

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Terry and his students successfully figured out the angle of the taper on the axle crosses...all of them were within a few thousandths of 3-degrees. Allowing for wear (and the less than perfect Mitchell precision) it is pretty certain that is what they should be. Armed with that critical information I've been working on a way to machine them. I think I have it figured out but rather than take chances with the blanks I machined I've decided to make the entire piece in aluminum as a test. This will be easier and I'll be able to find any unforseen complications before I ruin something and have to do it again. With that in mind, I chucked up a piece of 4-1/2" aluminum bar. It's too thick...I bought it for another job but I haven't gotten to that one yet and won't until this is done so I may as well use it now and buy another if I need it.

 

 

Following the same procedure I used on the steel pieces, I reamed it to 1"

 

 

Then broached the key way and turned it to 4.425

 

 

I had just enough time to start the set-up for milling. I want the set screw collar behind the work piece to lay flat against the jaws of the chuck so tomorrow I'll make a second keyed arbor with an extension that fits inside the chuck. It's critical that this be held rock solid...not so much for the aluminum but certainly for the steel.

 

[JV Puleo]

Here is the chart Terry's student, Marshall, worked up. Notice that none of the measurements are exact. I suspect much of this is the result of wear so this is a case where we have to guess as to what was intended. However, working with figures this accurate takes a lot of the "luck" out of the equation.