1941_Saratoga Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Let me preface this question by saying that this is my first Fluid Drive car, and it took me a while to get used to shifting. My understanding is that when I shift into 3rd, and I reach ~35mph, I let off the gas and the transmission will automatically shift into (4th?) a cruising gear. This is how it's worked over the past 2-1/2 years I've owned it, anyway. In the past couple of days, the transmission won't shift into that 'cruising' gear, and kicks the shifter back into neutral. I can put the clutch in and re-engage the transmission, but any speeds over 35mph cause the transmission to kick out of gear. Any suggestions on a procedure for troubleshooting this issue? Thanks! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 The syncros may be worn in the transmission. Let's hear what the experts on here say. Also, you should lift off the gas between 25 and 28 mph for the shift into fourth gear for the 8 cylinder engine and 15-18 for the 6. It's best to drive in the high range all the time. It sounds like you are trying to drive it like a manual transmission, starting in low range and shifting to high range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted May 1, 2016 Author Share Posted May 1, 2016 Hi 61polara, Actually I drive in high most of the time, although I find starting from a stopped position in 3rd to be very sluggish, especially on an incline, so I generally shift down to 2nd. This problem of popping out of gear in 3rd is a very recent issue, although some other problems - not going into gear (intermittent) in 2nd or 3rd when shifting, or occasionally slipping out of gear in high - have been longstanding problems. The car has 112k miles, so I wouldn't think a rebuild would be out of line, but there aren't many mechanics around here that would be knowledgeable about Fluid Drive transmissions. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 The steering column shift lever popping/moving back into neutral position can be caused by misalignment of the engine (motor mounts) or shift lever rods mis- adjustment or internal transmission wear issues. Check for worn damaged motor mounts and shift linkage adjustment as demonstrated in the shop manual. Make sure they are OK. This transmission most likely being an early M-4 Vacamatic uses a rubber rubber up-shift diaphragm. for shifting into high gear... this six sided diaphragm could have a tear or small hole in it causing poor or no auto up-shifts into 4th or high gear. A damaged diaphragm would require replacement. It's located externally on the passenger side of the transmission and there is an plunger rod adjustment required after doing this job. Shop manual required once again.There are also vacuum controls/hoses and lines that could cause poor auto up-shifts-......shop manual diagnostics to check properly. Grinding/ banging into or out of high 4th gear will damage the direct speed blocker syncro ring and shift sleeve too. These hard to find parts parts are inside of the transmission and if required and should probably be replaced by some one skilled enough to do this job and carefully check all the other internal parts for wear. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted May 1, 2016 Author Share Posted May 1, 2016 Bob, Your detailed (an illustrated!) explanations are amazing! I'll go through your suggestions this week, with the manual and see how I make out. Greatly appreciated! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Hope this helps!... all assuming you don't have the R-7 eight overdrive transmission. The OD's are very trouble free. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted May 2, 2016 Author Share Posted May 2, 2016 Hmmm, my transmission does have overdrive, Bob. What would the difference be from your previous instructions? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 c49er, I think he has the R-7 eight overdrive transmission. The Saratoga should be an 8 cylinder car. Bob's descriptions above are for the 6 cylinder underdrive transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Yea I agree Dave...that's why I mentioned it about the R-7's...but have seen the M-4s on the eights too. He needs to look underneath the car to see what trans he has and that's why I posted pics of the M-4 trans. A picture of the eight cylinder R-7 overdrive transmission also used on the early 40's Chrysler eight cars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 If you do have the 1941 OD R-7( looks like you do) trans you need to check the electrical and shift linkage adjustments and motor mounts same as on the Vacamatic M-4 underdrive trans.. DEFINATELY check transmission front and rear oil levels!!! If the oil is low in the rear half of the transmission the planetary OD gears will seize up! Causing no engagement of the overdrive above 25 MPH. The overdrive engagement is a centrifugal engaging type of system and will go into OD @ or above 25 MPH. Really a pretty trouble free system. The solenoid is used to cause the OD to disengage and go back into direct drive. There is a relay on the firewall with a 14 Amp fuse. If the relay fuse is burned out the trans will want to stay in OD and will not kick down out of OD above 25MPH with the throttle. Shown is a 1941 Chrysler R-7 transmission. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) Sorry - plumbing emergency got in the way of this project. Thanks for the updated pictures, Bob. I'm hoping to get started tomorrow. Some questions concerning the transmission oil. I've been told straight 10w oil is what I should use for both the transmission and the overdrive, but I'd rather verify this with experts. Also, I've heard that the fluid never needs to be drained, just added to? Is there a preferred brand or place to purchase the correct fluid? Thanks! Dave Edited May 5, 2016 by 1941_Saratoga Error - meant 10w, not 50w (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narve N Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 10W or Hydraulic Fluid for the Fluid Drive, 50W or GL-1 transmission oil for the trans and for the overdrive - is what I've heard. And I run my 40 as a manual too, toying around with the OD and kick-down to make it a 5-speed. As far as I know, the conversion of a 41 from 4- to 5-speed only requires removing a blocking plate that denies the 41's from using 1st gear of the standard transmission. Should improve acceleration significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted May 8, 2016 Author Share Posted May 8, 2016 Interesting, Narve. I've seen several 40's era Chryslers that have gone to Norway and Sweden. Is there a particular affinity for those models in Scandinavian countries? The fluid level in the transmission was fine. I haven't checked the OD yet (that's where I got the 50w in my head in the previous post). Is the OD fill plug accessible from inside the car, like the transmission, or is it best to get underneath? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 If you check the fluid level from inside the car, I think you checked the level in the fluid drive unit only. I think the transmission and overdrive units can only be checked from under the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 Actually 61polara, I was able to reach the Fluid Drive, Transmission and Overdrive all from inside the car. Made it easy to drain the Transmission and OD and fill with a gravity feed spout with a flexible hose. So an update...All fluids were checked, and except for the Fluid Drive (which was full), were changed and filled with GL-1 90w. Cleaned the connections to the OD solenoid, and took the cover off and ran some 2000 paper between the points and then a clean cloth. Everything looked very clean inside, but I noticed the points were closed with the power off. Is that correct? Took the car around the block for a test drive, and it shifted more smoothly, however it continued to pop out of gear in 3rd before going into high. The idle seems high when I let off the gas. This problem started when I was replacing the gas pedal. The replacement pedal was shorter than the existing pedal, and I changed the length of the accelerator rod by disconnecting it from the throttle linkage and turning the nut a few times. The new pedal still did not fit, so I put the adjustment back where it was, and put the old pedal back in. I'm wondering if I don't have that adjustment correct. Could that be the issue? I've attached a couple of images of the transmission and linkage assembly. Thanks for all the info and suggestions so far. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Sometimes it's best to ask what you did just before the problem started. My guess is that the idle speed is to high based on what you said. Reduce the idle speed to about 450 rpm's and see what it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 So far we are trying to do this with the overdrive engaged, so you can lift off and change into overdrive. What happens if you lock it in gearbox-only, as you would for reversing, so overdrive is not available? If you then find it popping out of gear on "overrun" (lifting off), you could have a gearbox wear problem - longitudinal clearance has increased and is now too great. The gear is slipping off the synchro ring. It could also be that the gear shift mechanism is worn or loose or out of adjustment and not holding the gear in quite the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 Interesting, Spinneyhill. That was a great suggestion (and very logical!) - I took the car for a test drive first thing this AM and locked out Overdrive, and it did not kick out of gear. I've never really used the OD lockout feature before, just pulled it back a few times to see what it did. Not sure how far the knob is supposed to be pulled out. It seemed very hard to pull it back. That would seem to narrow the problem down to an OD switch, the solenoid, or high idle speed(?). Is it also possible that the OD lockout is not fully engaged or disengaged (somewhere in between) might cause this? I plan to take the floor cover back off and check the movement of the cable and linkage. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 The cable is either rusty or bogged up with dirt, which results if you oil the cable. Oil is a wetting agent so don't oil flexible cables. Use a grease or a dry lubricant (but not graphite in a carrier that dries out, because galvanic corrosion will result). I don't think it will be the o/d. I think engine mounts, gearbox mounts and gear linkages should be looked at first. Operating the o/d should not affect the gearbox. After a drive is the gearbox or overdrive hot? If it is in good condition you should be able to put your hand on it (be careful!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Is this a three speed gearbox with overdrive on 2 and 3? Does it go into o/d in 2nd gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 The 1941-42 Studebaker shop manual says it could be 1. Misalignment of trans with engine assembly. 2. Trans pinion gear teeth worn or tapered. Clutch sleeve gear teeth worn or tapered. 4. Insufficient spring tension on gear shift lever detent ball notch. 5. Too much chamfer on edge of gear shift lever detent ball notches. 6. Improper adjustment of remote control linkage. They used a BW gear box too, with o/d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 If you have not already done so, I recommend you address Spinneyhill's Studebaker possibility #6 first, as this is the easiest and least-invasive. "Remote control linkage" can apply to both the column shift operating rods to the transmission and the overdrive cable to the lever on the OD case. OD cable: Disconnect at the lever on the OD case, then manually operate the lever on the case to one extreme and then the other, marking each position at a convenient reference point on the frame or other undercarriage component. Re-attach the cable, and have someone use the handle in the driver's seat to engage and disengage the OD while you note the positions of the lever vis-à-vis the marks you made. Operation with the handle and cable must move the lever to the two "natural" limits of the lever. You may need to adjust the threaded rod to make this happen. Shift rods to the regular transmission: Inspect for loose bushings (look like donuts) and replace if there's appreciable play. Then do the same drill as with the OD handle, to ensure that the rods are fully throwing the levers on the transmission into place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) Your 8 cylinder Vacamatic can be locked out of freewheeling and overdrive by pulling out the knob below the dash. This should only be done while the car is not moving. With the knob out, you will only have second gear in the low range and only third gear in the high range. In the low range, the transmission starts in second gear and when you lift you foot off the gas it shifts to second overdrive. In high range, it starts in third and then shifts to third overdrive. This is for the 8 cylinder engine. The 6 cylinder transmissions drive the same but are totally different being a 4 speed transmission with no overdrive. The BW overdrive comments above can apply to this transmission. I you don't have a shop manual, you should get one. Edited May 14, 2016 by 61polara Deleting comments that relate only to the 6 cylinder,4 speed Vacamatic. (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted May 15, 2016 Author Share Posted May 15, 2016 (edited) First of all, thanks for the recent suggestions, Spinneyhill, Grimy and 61Polara. I greatly appreciate the help! I do have the Shop Manual for '41 Chryslers, the Motors Manual and the Parts Manual for my car, but the nuanced help here really gives a better understanding of what I've read. So far, as I've mentioned, I've drained and changed the fluid in the transmission and OD, and shifting is much smoother between gears. I've lowered the idle speed and OD in high range is accessible again. I noticed that if I keep a little pressure on the shifter in 3rd when I'm letting off the gas to let the transmission go into high, I can feel the shifter move down a bit and the car moves cleanly into high (and stays there). If I don't apply pressure to the shifter, the transmission pops back into neutral. Would that tend to point the problem to linkage or gearbox wear? In reference to #6 in Spinneyhill's post - is that the adjustment between the gear shift control rod and the remote control gear shift rod lever that you're referring to? I've made the adjustment (circled in red in the picture below) per the shop manual, but I've noticed that the rubber that goes holds the control rod to the shift rod lever is pretty dry and there's a tiny bit of movement. Should there be any play at all in that linkage? The remote control gearshift rod bearing (in blue) I replaced soon after I purchased the car. The column jacket was broken and I have it in place for now with a hose clamp until I can get it welded. There isn't any play in that area. Thanks again! Dave Edited May 15, 2016 by 1941_Saratoga (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941_Saratoga Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 Just an update to this thread... After trying all of the suggestions from everyone here (many thanks, btw!), I finally decided that it was time to do a full transmission overhaul. Disassembling the tranny revealed quite a few issues - worn synchro stop rings, chipped low/reverse gear, same with reverse idler, and worn cluster gear. I've managed to track down all the parts locally and online, but decided to tackle some engine and other issues as long as the car is out of commission. Compression was pretty low (85 in several cylinders) and quite a few areas were leaking (see above pic of head gasket). Rear main was leaking and oil pan gasket as well. King Pins replaced and rear upper/lower motor mounts. Hopefully will have the car back on the road in the next 4-5 weeks, and be able to get the real experience of a straight 8 w/fluid drive. Thanks again for all the help I always get here. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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