lancemb Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 OK folks, I was just getting ready to put the new torque seal kit on that I got from Bob's when I quickly became alarmed, and I only have a couple days to get a return OK so I need to make a decision. I really hope you can shed some light on this! No instructions were included, and it is obviously not a direct replacement. I immediately noticed that my torque ball/flange had rubber fixed to it, which would move with it and seal against the inside of the outer housing. What I got was an outer housing with rubber fixed to it, which would then theoretically seat against the torque ball/flange as it moved. Plus, the one I got looks like a CARS repro; not a re-vulcanized unit like I ordered. There are numerous issues with this: 1) The new housing will not allow movement of my current torque ball unit unless I remove the rubber from it.2) The original design seems superior; the torque ball is just cast or forged metal; it is not smooth enough to be a sealing surface for a gasket. I would have to majorly polish it.3) There is a seal which is NOT on the original design, and there does not appear to be space for it to fit. Where does this go? How the HECK is this supposed to work? RIght now, unless I can be convinced otherwise, I am leaning toward just putting it back together the way it was. Tearing the rubber off the current unit to replace it with an inferior design seems crazy to me. Can't I just re-vulcanize the torque ball unit like original? Which of the two (or both) modifications necessitate the shims? If I use these shims, won't my transmission sit too far forward? I can't believe I haven't seen a thread on this before; it is crazy to me. Please help if you have knowledge on this! Thanks, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Todd Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 In regards to that second picture, my torque ball didn't have that big seal that's in the center. My kit had the rubber vulcanized to the retainer. The retainer that you bought looks like it has rubber already stuck to it too. The thing that confuses me is that yours has that extra big-looking seal (in the middle of the second picture). The only thing that went 'inside' the retainer on mine was a couple of the paper gaskets and the seal that was vulcanized to it. Plus mine had the rear-end seal, where your transmissions meets the rear-end. Like yours does in the third picture.Sorry, i feel i'm not too good at explaining! Let me know if this helped any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupekid Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) Boys , boys of course the factory retainers had no inner edge rubber thats why they leaked !! I replaced mine 20 yrs ago ...my original ball retainer as pictured in pics (1&3) did not have a vulcanised rubber seal on the inner edge .. & it leaked....i then purchased a new ball retainer which had the rubber vulcanised around the inner edge as you show in pic 1 ... now if you look at (pic 2) your unit has the centre large rubber with a slight angle to it... this is so when you put the retainer over your unit both rubbers should meet & marry perfectly ! be sure the retainer rubber sits on top of the units angled rubber as best you can.. the grease you smear between both marrying rubbers will slip them just pass one another for correct position when you bolt down for tight sealing ..paper gasket then circular large shim then paper gasket ....now if your original bolts do no reach far enough to bolt retainer to trans end , thats ok infact thats a good sign ! ..just use longer bolts (for now) to compress the vulcanised retainer to trans end once tightened .. then remove one bolt at a time to refit the original smaller bolts .... dont be afraid that the ball wont pivot ..it will under the cars duress & force !! the rubber from the retainer will not break off ..its vulcanised with strength for this reason !! & it does a damn good job of providing the untimate seal . if your torque ball is rough you might have to smooth it out with some fine sand paper or use a wire wheel to smooth it out somewhat ..dont use anything too harsh like a grinder lol be kind to it eh eh & sure,, give that giant testicle a polish ready for some slippery action ..ha ha !! lets call it mechanical porn eh eh & once you have done ur best ... lather that big ball with some trans oil..mine hasnt leaked in the 20 yrs !! ok Lance , that should be no problem for you...just DO NOT remove the rubber from the inner retainer edge what-so ever . Edited September 13, 2015 by johnnybuick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Yeah, I have never seen that rubber band around a torque ball. Are you sure it isn't the old one that just stuck on when you pulled the retainer off? I admit the latest retainer I have changed is a 55. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupekid Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) no no its supposed to be there on 57 Buicks..because the factory retainer hat did not have the inner edge rubber seal thus when it coupled together the thick centre unit rubber sealed against the vunerable retainer hat only ..& once there was some wear after some years of use ..it leaked thats why these new innovative retainer hats have that inner rubber edge ..so both rubbers meet to create a tight seal .. dont worry im on the ball with this ..been there done it !! Edited September 13, 2015 by johnnybuick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 Brandon - thanks for the info and for sending your instruction sheet - that helped a lot!Johhnybuick - thank you for your input and confirming that yours also had the seal in the middle of the torque ball. However Brandon sent me an instruction sheet that came with his kit that instructs to remove the center seal with the new kit. This makes sense as after fitting them both up. Your kit may have been a little different back then, but on mine there is absolutely no way the two seals can function properly together. It allows no room for flexing even if I was able to get the bolts in.Given this, I am going to put it back together as it is except for sealing the retainer better. I may regret this, but if I have to change it later then so be it. I may get lucky as the fluid I was seeing before may just have been from the leaky speedo cable, which I discovered upon taking things apart. Hopefully Bob's will give me a refund.Thanks again for the feedback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Todd Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Let me know how it all goes! I hate messing with the rear end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I am leaning toward Brandon on this one. I think the new outer retainer with the rubber seal bonded to the inside was introduced around 1958 and was suppossed to be back compatible to 1953 and possibly earlier. The torque ball mated directly up against this rubber seal, there was no other rubber seal between them. The torque ball should be smooth so it does not damage the outer retainer bonded seal. There appear to be a few versions of this basic concept depending on the year. The smaller round seal in the third picture is the driveshaft seal that goes in the end of the torque tube housing to prevent transmission oil from running into the rear differential. On earlier models it was a spline seal but was changed in 1953 because they used a splined bushing on the drive shaft end. I am basing my statements on my experience replacing the torque ball seal on my 1953 Special with the new outer torque ball reatiner with the bonded rubber seal on the inside.Joe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted September 14, 2015 Author Share Posted September 14, 2015 The torque ball should be smooth so it does not damage the outer retainer bonded seal. There appear to be a few versions of this basic concept depending on the year. The smaller round seal in the third picture is the driveshaft seal that goes in the end of the torque tube housing to prevent transmission oil from running into the rear differential. On earlier models it was a spline seal but was changed in 1953 because they used a splined bushing on the drive shaft end. I am basing my statements on my experience replacing the torque ball seal on my 1953 Special with the new outer torque ball reatiner with the bonded rubber seal on the inside.JoeThanks Joe. The small green seal baffles me as I don't see one like it now and there does not appear to be room for it.The torque ball is smooth-ish but not as smooth as I would expect from a rotating sealing surface. I think the biggest folly in the original design is the fact that foreign debris can enter the retainer and mess up the seal.I just have a hard time tearing mine up when it looks to be in great shape. Since I doubt it will get much debris in the retainer under my driving conditions I think I may just see how it goes, since it appears to be in good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 In regard to the small green seal, look in the end of the torque tube where it mates to the torque ball. You should see the splines on the drive shaft and around the drive shaft will be a bushing surrounded by the small round seal. The original seal needs to be pried out and the new one carefully placed in to replace it. I believe the pook in the rubber seal (with a small circular spring) needs to be facing the front of the car.In regard to debris entering the seal, I think it is not a problem. I know on older designs they had a boot that covered the outer retainer but that is not possible to use with the new outer retainer as there is no channel to fit the lip of the boot into.Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) We had our doubts with the kit we got for the '56, so we enlisted the help of a local who cut his teeth on Dynaflows back in the day. There were several design changes over a few years, and our kit that was specifically for our '56 still wasn't 100% right. The biggest problem we had is that small green seal. The one in our kit was for a bigger shaft diameter, so we procured a seal locally that fit properly. Upon removal of the old one, we found that it, too, was the wrong size! No wonder it leaked... We DID remove the seal from the ball, and sanded it to make a nice surface. Now the only place we loose fluid is at the front... https://www.facebook.com/1956Buick/photos/pb.169746389767574.-2207520000.1442241644./516507145091495/ Edited September 14, 2015 by SpecialEducation (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick man Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) I believe MudBone constructed and welded an outer metal sleeve lip ring so he could install an outer rubber seal so outside debris and crap in general cannot gain entrance. Rubber upon rubber would make a good seal so I have retained my seals with rubber lubricant added. Edited September 16, 2015 by buick man (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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